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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Did anyone on the tour happen to hear the number of Ovations that are built on a daily basis. I did hear that the Hamer group manages to get out around 3/day but I never got an Ovation number. |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Hey: Bill
I enjoyed the time spent getting to know you along with everyone else... It might be a simple math "thing" but review the SN#s by year and divide by 18 production days per month... That would give you a ballpark...
It sure was fun getting the inside look. Once again without the "Club" I would have never made the tour. Thanks Al, Miles, and......
Woz |
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Location: The Shop | 45 |
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Location: out there | ONLY 45???? I thought Ovation was much bigger than that! What is Martin or Taylor? I heard Martin was 200 a day and Taylor was 120 but don't know if those are true numbers.
This is a product that I love!! What are they doing to it??? Are the suits that incompetent that it's down to 45 a day?!? What is the plan, let it get down to 30 a day then move it all overseas with the typical suitish justification BS that they always feed us and we see through immediately. Do they really think that the public is that stupid? |
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Location: Scotland | Hamer is something like 3 a day. The figure is low simply because Ovations are labour-intensive to produce & involve a lot of hand work. You should have done the tour. I do not see the logic in how you equate low production figures to some kind of corporate plot, or that higher figures mean a better product. To me smaller production suggests a quality product where time & effort is invested, rather than a factory which throws together hundreds per day. |
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Location: out there | Dear Paul, It's not the low figures, it's the ever decreasing figures. I dare say Hamer was probably higher before it was aquired. I sence all the factory people are fanatical about what they do, aren't there any guitar fanatics wearing coats and ties? |
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Location: NJ | Hamer was a bigger facility in Arlington Heights. As for the current product of Ovations I too do not follow the logic that the amount produced has anything to do with competition etc. |
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Location: NJ | So, . . your solution would be . . what? . . . "pushing" production to get "numbers up"? The pace at the factory was somewhat "brisk". By no means was it "Detroit", and if a person had a circumstance that may have required a little extra attention, there was ample opportunity to do so. Things moved along efficiently, but there was no Lucy & Ethel on the chocolate line. If the "suits" (as you put it) need to have the high production numbers and the efficiency experts creaming in their jeans, they can go to Korea to have that (and they do). I honestly can't see New Hartford being "banged up" in favor of relocating the line overseas because: A.) there's entirely TOO much history there to forsake, 2.) it's not only a production facility, but a VERY state of the art R&D operation sharing technology with the aviation siblings.
When we sat in the R&D office for our discussion, I thought that I heard Darren say that the day's "number" was in the 70's, but I may heard that wrong. No matter. Look at the production numbers of Collings or Larivee or comparable. These are well respected instruments that garner a nice price. I'd feel more comfortable about paying more money for a 1 of 45 for that day than a 1 of 350 that probably has a higher degree of things "getting by" on the "line".
I'd think twice about casting aspersions without seeing it first hand.
My biggest beef is that the QUALITY of the USA line isn't (or hasn't) been pushed enough in the public eye. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Anyone else that was on the tour besides me feeling a little offended by the negative comments from people that wern't there? If anybody would take the time to read some of the previous posts about the factory tour they might be able to understand the care and craftsmanship that goes into every O that is "cranked out" of the factory, I am very proud to own one of the 45. As far as "the suits" go, I think that the people we met were wearing offical Ovation suits and were actually the movers and shakers of the company. Just because 2 of the executives were at a trade show doesn't mean that our comments won't be heard. (Don't forget, W-2 was there.) Thanks for comming Bill!! |
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Location: NJ | Willard
I agree. Plenty of big talk behind the computer keyboard but when it was time to go up there and ask the tough questions...well we all know who were there...
You cannot change things overnight. I think we see progress in the right direction.
It is no secret I have friends in the Ovation organization, but I am honest with them also and tell them what I think. I'm sure they don't always like it but that is the way it is. It serves no useful purpose to make a drive by on the message board. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "Are the suits that incompetent that it's down to 45 a day?!? "
That is an odd approach. I was actually very surprised that they were UP to 45 a day. I was so impressed by the work ethic. There did not seem to be any pressure for numbers of units like the x number necks and y number of tops, but more of a "just do it correctly." The only way I see to increase numbers is to add people at all of the stations, which would probably mean either more space or shifts... and what would that accomplish? I may be wrong, but after seeing the hand work from the number of people it takes to make ONE guitar... THANK GOD for the corperate structure. With labor and materials I can't imagine the price of the USA models actually paying for themselves, or if they do... it's close to the vest as they say. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I wish I could have gone on the factory tour. And, I wish I could have met Bill Kaman. I have a bunch of questions for him....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Shelton, Washington, USA | 45 a day?.... gee, that makes the 4 that i have that much more special now.... |
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Location: NJ | Jeeeez, Jim! Where ya' been?!
Welcome back! |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | This is a central issue on many of our discussions. Is a guitar a product that can be produced like a car, with every penny of cost spreadsheeted to the nth degree to produce this revenue producing product. Or, is it a piece of art that produces superior sound for a premium price that raises it above the flotsam of plywood and cheapwood products from the 10 cent an hour countries that teach production values at the end of a whip. Prior to WWII, instrument making in America was a work done by artisans, not assembly line workers imported from car manufacturers. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | This has really strayed from my original question, which has been answered, but I can't hold back any longer...
Guess who trained the Asian countries...It was Corporate America. We went in and showed them how to manufacture things and set up their factories and gave them blueprints of what we wanted them to mass produce, the US government even helped with the financing. Ya know why we gave them all this help? Because they were willing to work for 10 cents/hour and ride bikes to work while the US labor market wanted new cars, TV's, stereos, lake cabins, Big Bikes for the kids,guitars, ect. The Asian workforce is still rideing bikes to work and working for 10 cents/hour but now the US workers want even more than before and they can afford it because.....The Asian workforce works for 10 cents/hour. I can't exclude myself from the US workforce but I really can't blame the Asians for picking up the ball and doing a fantastic job with what WE taught them. They make a pretty nice Ovation guitar too!!! |
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Location: out there | Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying push production. I'm saying push sales and marketing and CREATE the demand. Worry about how to make them later. (Cranking up the factory is the easy part). Get the product on stage everywhere and on TV again. Why is it that the best Ovation print ad is the one for Dean Markley strings? Make the public WANT the guitar, that's the hard part.
And yes it's been confirmed that 45 is the number. Once it was well over 100/day, when the company had all the hot endorsees and was on TV all the time and on every stage across the country. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | I think there's a huge difference between
$.10 an hour and a living wage. You can get by living in Korea for substantially less than you can living here in the good ole US of A. And those that benefit the most from that difference are those "suits" previously mentioned.
I once read somewhere that if the Japanese could choose between a beautiful,plump, Florida grown orange at a price of $.50, and a shriveled up, miserable excuse for an orange grown in Japan at a price of $5.00, that they would buy the Japanese orange- based on principle. They care more about taking care of their own people than any one elses. Spare me the argument about their current economy as all economies are cyclical (remember the '80's?). And there must be some economic benefit to manufacturing there, or else we wouldn't be there..
Americans, in particular, stand to lose the most in this 'global economy' as our standard of living is higher than those third world countries that we're subbing our manufacturing to (if not third world, then second world?? ie Mexico, Korea etc etc...) and the only replacement for for these bread and butter jobs are minimum wage service jobs?? Wow, we have alot to look foward to :( |
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Location: NJ | Rich
I challenge you to find any electronic gear made in the USA aside from some high end hi fi stuff. Most is assembled from parts made overseas at best.
there are no tv's vcr's dvd's made in the us at all. Most of the technology is developed here and then enhanced and manufactured overseas.
Service oriented jobs is the fastest rising field of employment.
McIntosh (now owned by a Japanese concern) put out a USA made hifi tube amplifier for the y2K and it was 20K or something crazy. Are you familiar with manley? their stuff is made in the US and very expensive many people don't buy it because of the price. Still it is a highly respected company with a high quality product. The average consumer would buy the equivalent made in China Behringer unit (sorry Miles) at 1/10th the cost. In a certain respect I cannot blame them. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | As Al stated, it's really hard to find a consumer product that is 100% USA. Not even motorcycles anymore. I lean towards products that embrase global practises in a smart way. Behringer ( I don't appologize for spending wisely) is a choice of mine because much like early Ovation did, the German mothership of Behringer own the factory in China, and the QC is controlled from Germany. There are plenty of companies that contract overseas, and the product goes straight to consumer (retail stores) for even more cost savings. That is just silly no matter where it is made. If a product was contracted to Texas from a NY company, I'd be happier to know the QC was being done by the home office in NY.
I totally agree that we should buy U.S.A, but only if it makes sence and is the best for the money. I bought a Polaris motorcycle instead of a Harley because I think it's better designed, it's less expensive, and there are more USA parts and companies involved with Polaris than in a Harley. Ovation... same deal. USA line = lots of good'ol handwork for the Connecticut Yankees. Imports also support the R&D and output of the USA Models.. all cool.
I'm not sure our "standard of living is higher" than the countries we have mentioned and I always wondered who decided on this 1st, 2nd and 3rd world ratings. I Love the good'ol USA. I served 14+ years in the Navy and another 10+ on government contracts, but if I could make it work, I'd like to live in Korea or Germany for ahwile too.
As far as "the only replacement for for these bread and butter jobs are minimum wage service jobs" is more a factor of our ethics than anything else. The bread'n butter salaries are paid by companies that can afford quality workers and are willing to pay and even higher cost to keep them. One of the reasons I got out of the Navy before a retirement was because the ethic there, and I notice in the rest of the our country, seems to have gone from an employee asking "what can I do for you?" to "what are you going to do for me?" I think this attitude is going to hurt us in the long run, and in fact already has started to hurt us. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Too many threads/posts about Korean made O's at one time... I just reread THIS thread and my diatribe doesn't seem to fit :o I gotta quit reading every thread in one sitting... |
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Location: NJ | Miles sorry to jump on your Behringer parade but you post seems to indicated that every behinger item is shipped from China to Germany and then tested. I sincerly doubt this and find no evidence of it on their website.
From what they say on their website they are basically a distribution company with R & D in Germnany, offices and a service center.
Yes, the product has massive bang for the buck but seems to be the "tapco" of the new century. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | No apology necessary. I'm sure they don't test each one, much like I doubt Ovation tested every import guitar. I believe they sample a few from each batch. In this country they are becoming the Tapco which in my book is a good thing. I see clubs and other installations of what seems like 20 year old tapco stuff working just fine. Of the new gear I have been looking at available, I hold up Behringer to ANY of the competition up to about 5 times the price. I recently took a tour of the 48 channel mixer I was going to get when I got the Allen & Heath instead which I thought was "da bomb". I should have held out for the Behringer. Oh well, live and learn. I spent roughtly 50K on outboard gear for the studio instead of 500K. I'm happy. |
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Location: Scotland | I'll go with Miles on this. Behringer is the red-headed step-child of pro audio, and that is mostly unfair. Most of their designs are borrowed, and I know there are or were reliability issues with certain products, but no other manufacturer comes close in terms of price/performance ratio (having said that, their guitar amps suck) It's like comparing a Rode NT2 to a Neumann U87. The Neumann is without question superior, but to the vast majority of users is that superiority worth an extra 2 grand? The same could be said of of the Korean/USA Ovations, though it's probably unfair to compare an electronic/hardware product to a musical instrument. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Yeah I agree... effects, mixers and outboard gear they are great with. The fact that they "copied" some of the best designs on the planet is even better.. but the guitar amps just don't cut it. I don't know why they even went there. Personally I think it was just so when they outfit the big Euro shows the back line has their name on it (instead of Marshall etc...) |
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Location: NJ | hold it now I gotta jump in here. You take a mixer photocopy the circuit board then make your own amp and call it your own??? that's what they did, the same with their amp which is a cheezy copy of a tech 21 design.
Fine be a reliable cheap gear company but do it on your own designs. Don't copy the gear of your competitors and produce it until they can get you in court, by that time you say fine we will pay you x dollars and you had 6 years to develop your own.
I have no time for these types of business practices. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well that's sort of what happened, but not really. According to our US Supreme Court copying a circuit is NOT illegal in itself. Copying and then using the same components on that circuit board is a different story, which is why no one paid anyone any money and after several counter suits by both parties, they both went off to separate corners to lick their wounds. I mean it's not like they copied a well known headstock design and called it a new guitar or anything. :)
Personally I think everyone missed the BIG point of how, if it was a copy, was Behringer able to put it in a better box, make it moduler and offer it for 1/5th the price. More importantly, why is the Mackie stuff so expensive?
Just as we say with guitars to "buy with your ears" I chose a similar tact with electronics. I have been inside Mackie and Behringer products along with many others. My Yamaha mixers are better designed at more than 1/2 the price of the similar Mackie's and the Behringers are along the lines of my Allen & Heath.
November 8, 1999 – Woodinville, WA – Mackie Designs Inc. (NASDAQ: MKIE) and Behringer Spezielle StudioTechnick GmbH announced today that the Companies have resolved all pending legal disputes between the parties. Under the agreement, the terms are to remain confidential and therefore, there will be no further or additional comment. The parties acknowledge that they are pleased with the outcome of this settlement and look forward to participating in friendly competition in the future with their respective brands. |
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Location: NJ | Miles I agree that Mackie is not the best laid out that a mixer could be and I have no desire to own one yet they are everywhere. Isn't mackie owned by Sam Ash? I know Samson is.
Anyway in reference to the court decision. With my ex employer I signed an agreement that we would both not disclose the results of the settlement but there was one and I one. I sincerly doubt that no money changed hands there. |
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Location: NJ | I fished around and got some info on the Mackie Behringer situation.
Mackie is a publicly held company, with 65% owned by Sun Financial.
Behringer is owned by Richie Ash with a couple of partners.
The suit with Behringer and Mackie was
settled because Sam Ash Music is Mackie's biggest customer. I doubt if money did not change hands.
Mackie is currently building product in Washington, Italy (RCF), Massachusetts (EAW), and guess where all of the low end mixers are being
made in China.
I called Mackie the Tapco of the milenium well I was not too far off since Greg Mackie designed the tapco stuff.
I smell some industry incest here. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Lol.. that is funny. I was doing the similar research. The only additional piece I have is that besides Samson, there was appearently a "Sam Ash" like of Behringer, or it may have just been the Samson gear (the wording made it unclear). Also Sweetwater sound got involved because they won't carry Sam Ash (Samson) or Behringer only Mackie. The ownership of Behringer is a little murkie.. I think Sam Ash owns the US distro only. There are 3 or 4 companies that make up Behringer now, but I believe Urei Behringer still owns BEHRINGER International GmbH. However... I found this..." BEHRINGER Holdings in Singapore serves as the group’s global operations headquarters overseeing and coordinating the activities of the many BEHRINGER subdivisions and subsidiaries."
I'm starting to think Behringer and Mackie are the same company underneath it all and the lawsuit was an advertising stunt.
sheeeeeesh.... |
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Location: NJ | Miles
One more thing. So the supreme court ruled it is not illegal to copy a circuit. That begs the question "Is it ethical?"
I know you have a love for Behringer gear but just that business practice has to make you stomach churn. I remember you looking at the Ovation copies at the Namm show in disgust, well the same defense could be made for them that you make for the mixer and amp in question.
Since I am not a fan mackie products I really cannot comment on theirs but I do know the Tech 21 amp that was copied and I do happen to know some of the folks at tech 21 and I think they make a superior product. I find it not fair that their amp design would be copied and sold against their own market.
Think about this. I do not want to stock product X. I own both the retail outlet and the manufacturer. I have the manufacturer copy product X so I can put it in my store to compete with X and put them out of business. Sorry I just cannot agree with these types of business practices.
Just to verify I have never taken any business courses and according to many I have a lot to learn about business but what the hell do I know I only sell gear for a living! |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Hey Al,
Do you answer your emails???
Mike :( |
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Location: NJ | I try to. I get between 50 and 100 e mails a day. Some fall through the cracks. if you e mailed me last weekend Fri, Sat, sun I was away and it was possible that it got lost in the shuffle. I will go back and check for yours and see what it is about. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well AL,
I wrote the big long unfinished post below.. (I decided not to delete it)... and decided to make a better use of this thread with a question that may help others looking at gear. Do you know of ANY product line that has similar devices to Behringer, with similar features? I searched and could not find any. I have a short-list of key features that although are not part of any of the units overal function, really put the line over the top for value.
- Automatic servo controlled inputs to balance any standard line impedance and voltage to any other ON ALL PRODUCTS in the line.
- XLR and TRS Jacks on ALL PRODUCTS in the line, in the same location for easy racking.
- Presets or "Auto" functions that are actually useable in the real world.
- Clear consice instructions that use realworld examples of use of each piece of gear and how it interacts with others.
My research included Lexicon, Digitech, BBE and Alesis and all are at a minimum twice the price of Behringer (Lexicon is about 5 times more) and none of these lines have the above features, and none of these lines have all of the products.
So far I found some products like Focusrite Red that is similar. The Focusrite Red Dual Mic pre-amp has all of the features that are on that Behringer I picked up at GC except for the above keylist. The Focusrite is on sale now at Musicians Friend for $1,699.99
The Behringer unit is actually a Tube preamp and is on sale for
$199.99
:)
Obviously the Focusrite is a better unit, but is it $1,300 dollars better and can I really hear that 1,300 dollar difference or as someone recently posted... do I just hear a metalic "clunk"
===============================================
I don't see the ethics problem in this case. It's not an ethics issue for both Ford and Chevy to make a car. They both have wheels, engines, drive trains... they are the same. Behringer and Mackie products do not even look similar as cars do. Behringer also used better components and has more features. That's why the Mackie suit was laughable. I like the Behringer stuff cause I can't find anything close in quality/price.... I mean, flat out.. not even close.. and there is so much value added by using the line. because of features like like the servo inputs on ALL of the mixers and outboard gear that NO ONE else does.
Hey, I'm also fickle. Show me a better product line for the money, and I'm there.
Now having said that... the Tech21 issue. I sure hope Tech21 doesn't complain too much, because the Behringer guitar amp sounds pretty sad compared to the Tech21 which is why I have my doubts they copied anything. They are also similar in price, which makes the Tech21, the known entitiy for guitar products, the better value.
The problem with the outboard gear argument, is there are no other choices available with the same features in any where near the price range. The line just doesn't exist as far as I know. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Al and Miles,
Two things come to mind here.
1) Have you guys ever thought about going on TV and doing movie reviews? Sounds like "2 thumbs up" from Miles.
2)It might be time to start a Behringer board. |
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Location: NJ | Miles
a kia and a rolls both have 4 wheels a motor seat and air conditioning. I would rather have the rolls.
bottom line, The record plant, electric ladyland and all the other studios are not transferring all Berhinger gear any time soon or maybe even ever.
As for features sure I can hang a bunch of neon, big tires, mirrors, refectors, lower it, put a big 18" sub woofer and 300 watt amp, 15 antennae, 20 coat lacquer paint job and what do I have left ? I still have a kia with a bunch of bells and whistles.
If you want a rolls you have to pay for it no ifs ands or buts, bottom line for a hobby the behringer stuff functions well. For a pro you need to buy the best tools.
When I go to a gig I do not take a no name guitar and amp I take my best tools to do the best job I can. I do not settle for second best or third best. I want to know that what I am doing is the ultimate that I can have.
You have seen me live I never use shure mics, I always have akg beyer or neumann for recording. Because they are better and do the job better.
A pro never settles for second best or makes the arguement is it 1200 $ better. You want the best to represent you in the best way.
When money is the issue we settle for what we can afford. That is why my home studio will have a mix of all types of gear that I have collected over the year that was considered state of the art. will there be glitches? sure but I would put my dynacord stuff against the berhinger anyday. Same with my ashley, yamaha urei and altec.
Willard
for a fee we are available for parties |
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Location: NJ | ". . . . Jane, you ignorant slut . . . . . ." |
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Location: Waterloo, IL | Al,
I am considering some of the Behringer gear once I get back stateside. I am trying to get a consensus on whether the stuff is any good for home use. I understand that for pro use, you want the top of the line, even though it costs more money. When I worked as a mechanic in the field, I wanted the best hand tools, SnapOn, Mac, some Craftsman. For home, it is not so important to have the best. Is Behringer an acceptable product for home use?
It is good to see such a wide cross-section of expertise on this board. It really helps to get such a wide perspective. Thanks for all the time and effort (plus the money) you put into this.
Chuck
Still floating around the Middle East |
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Location: NJ | Chuck
For your home use the behringer gear is more than satisfactory. It performs well.
I have recorded in Miles studio and was pleased with the result (except for the one overdub I did to a tune that was 1 1/4 steps out of tune)
Part of this debate is tongue in cheek. I have always been an audio snob, I have a tube preamp and amp for my home stereo. I prefer the older more established brands. I am not looking for state of the art, since I cannot afford it. I usually wind up with older gear that was state of the art 10 years ago.
Miles on the other hand wants to operate a working studio where he must rely on the gear every day and maintain it. For his purposes the behringer gear performs very well as it will for your purposes. There is no snob appeal to the behinger stuff. It dies you throw it out and buy another one. Can you tell the difference between the high end gear and the behinger? maybe probably if you used audio tests.
I think of it like having a V 8 motor. YOu don't always stomp down on it but when you need to it is good to know it is there. Applied to audio, I like to know that I have the good components of a quality piece as opposed to whatever hit the price point to put it together.
Just my opinion your mileage may vary |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Al is correct.
If I had my choice, I would use Drawmer, Allen & Heath, Rane, Focusrite, Manley and others. I recently had to inventory for tax purposes, and I did some comparisons. If I were to outfit my studio with the bare essential similar gear I would have spent just over 300,000 dollars. As it is, I have invested over 60K and have a FULL outfit for every possible situtation.
Behringer is not for the audio snob. Several studios in Europe us it, as they seem to have a different attitude, and I think Al would be surprised at how much Behringer gear is in high-end studios in the states, they just don't advertise it. The gates and eq's and DI's I see turning up in studios and high end performance situations all the time (some people go to concerts to see the perfomers.. I look at the gear). Even the infamous old Ryman Auditorium is running the stuff.
Sure a Kia isn't a Rolls and you can't dress up an Kia to be anything else. HOwever a Corvette is not a Rolls either, but if you could buy a Corvette for the same price as the Kia, I think you would. In a real example, although neither is as well known, I could have bought a Saturn for the same price I bought my Cougar. There was NO CONTEST, the Cougar is twice the car in every respect. That's what I say about Berhringer, I'm not playing up more than it is. Nothing else, in any where near the price range, has the same features and quality. In 4 years my ADAT's, Lexicon, and Fostex products have ALL had to be serviced. They went BELLY UP until they were serviced. I have roughly 20+ pieces of Behringer gear, with no failures.
My next choice after Behringer would probably be Rane. I have not used a lot of it, but in recent comparisons it's coming out pretty good and is only about 2 to 3 times the price of the Berhinger gear. Rane has been around for a long time too. After that... I would skip to the Rolls Royce category and not waste my time. |
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How Many O's