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Location: San Francisco, CA | IMHO, the answer is yes.
Ovation has been using the collector's series to try new things since 1982. Quite innovative indeed. Do some experiments with new things here & there. If it fails, it won't affect regular production guitars. If it is good, keep them. For example, stereo output (1996), new preamp (OP40 in 2002), "new" bracing (collector 2001), touch sensitive volume control (1997), etc.
Frankly, Ovation has been very innovative, but they simply cannot have many new features every year. So, it's easier to have new, fancy wood to "celebrate" every year.
I own 1993, 1998, & 2002. The most attractive features of 2002 are the fancy top & the "new" OP40 preamp then, which is on 2003 Elite & Legend now. 2003 collector looks good, but I don't understand why it comes with OP40 instead of the latest one, OP50. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | A few other points.
1. It started in 82
2. Coming up with something new, as in really new, and ground breaking is difficult, trust me on this one! To do it year in and out for as long as this has gone on is impossible. The mistake KMC has made is keeping this going so long. As the texans say, "when the horse is dead, get off" Skip a few years till there's something worth doing as a collectors.
Then the marketing dept will say "but with this collectors it's a guaranteed sale of at least 1000 units each year. If we don't do that how will we replace the 1000 units?"
A possible answer to that is that if the Ovation product line is strong enough, the legends and adamaii and the rest, it should pull the weight. Evidently, that's not the case.
3. There have been significant steps taken with the C-Series:
first SS bowl round hole 83
ss in elite configuration 84
ss 12 string 85
16 fret acoustic neck 88?
combination built in mike and pickup
reintroduction of the mid size bowl 93
first use of the thin line pickup 93
first use of oil finish on the neck (An idea copied from Hamer)
parlor size bowl.
probably some others but they're past my time
4. The best thing for a C-Series would be to have a failure. After all, the whole point of collectability is rarity, isn't it? The one that's the turkey should be the most desirable 20-40 years from now. The explorer and Vee were considered failures in their time, look at them now. Now this point is only valid I think if you really try to do something and it fails. If it fails because the piece of home depot veneer is really f'ugly, well then it deserves obscurity. |
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Location: NJ | CWK2
I guess we need to all find one of those parlor guitars... |
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Location: Tennessee | Guess it's all a matter of what you like ... I have a 2000 Collectors which has the australian Lacewood top. It is absolutely stunning to look at, and has an iridecent, almost 3-D quality to the top and veneered headstock. I will admit I got it because IMHO it was easily one of the most beautiful guitars I have ever seen. But I also like the way it sounds ... it had a very warm sound right from the beginning, something akin to mahogany (which I must subconciously like since my 83 USA Ultra is a mahogany top).
What I like most is that it is definitely a Collector's piece ... it is relatively low production (700+/-), has all the goodies (Optima and XLR output, gold tuning pegs, mid-bowl) and elicits oohs and ahhs from anyone who sees it. You will never see another guitar that looks like it. And it sounds good (at least to me).
It was nice to see one go on eBay last week for nearly a grand ... somebody else out there thinks it's pretty special. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Refer back to the ice cream discussion |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Just a bluegrass question
The early Ovations were an attempt to duplicate, or improve on, the sound of a bluegrass standard and I won't even mention the name. Have they ever made a Collectible, or will they, with that booming, unmistakeable sound. I think that would be a barnburner. Especially if you could mike it and sound like Lester Flatt or Mac Wiseman.
Bailey
Oldangray are you out there any where? We need your input. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | That would be a deep bowl, non cutaway, straight acoustic, X braced lacquer finish.
Why in the world would you ever want to make one of those? It doesn't fit the supershallow panel master bells and whistles three titted new preamp mould. DUH!?
OK, OK, OK, maybe that's a bit harsh. Tell you what, Youse guys present that to the Sales and Marketing department at the upcoming trip to Mecca and report the responce. OK? |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Bill, deep bowl non cutaway is the only Ovation for me....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Lets start a protest group for the deep bowl, super acoustic sound, and force those factory shallow bowl supporters to prove why a guitar should sound like a peepee pooper when its not plugged in. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Bailey, excellent idea. I will gladly serve as president of the DEEP BOWL club. It's about time Ovation hears from us players and start making guitars that sound good without being plugged in! It is an acoustic guitar first isn't it? I see people on here wondering why Ovation guitars get no resect, DUH! They sound like CRAP! I mean what is hanging on the wall for a new player to try out. Is there maybe a deep bowl Legend, are even a deep bowl Balladeer. NO! there are supershallow bowl guitars, and Tangent models that sound so thin it hurts. What is wrong with Ovation? Why does sound not matter. WHY- O -WHY MUST WE "GET PLUGGED IN'?????? Acoustic guitar first please...Paul Hebert |
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Location: NJ | I guess this means that BOTH of you guys are coming to Connecticut at the end of the month? |
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Location: SoCal | For a short while, I had in my possession, a late 1967, early 1968, Deluxe Balladeer. Paul Templeman bought it on ebay here in California, had a problem with the shipping, and I picked it up for him.
The sound of that guitar was nothing short of wonderful. A big, open sound with deep bass, but the clarity inherent in Ovations. This is a guitar that made Ovations hugely popular well before they introduced electronics. I played it, then my Legend built 10 years after it, and wondered what the hell happened to the sound in 10 years?
For those of you going to the OFC gathering, it will be there. I shipped it to Kim Keller so Ovation could check it over if needed, then Paul is picking it up to take home. Ask nicely, and he might let you play it. It's a real treat.
If Ovation could get that sound again, they'd pull a lot of people away from Tabors and Morons. |
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Location: NJ | hmmmm . . . maybe I could "forget" to pick up Templeman at the airport, go up to CT with my best John Cleese impersonation and scam a really good guitar in the deal!!
. . . . . aw, . . . forget it!
Keller knows what Templeman and I BOTH look like!! |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | OK guys, there is another piece of the puzzle ya'll need to keep in mind.
The bowl.
The early ones were fiberglass cloth with polyester resign done on a 100 ton press. The new ones are the SMC (sheet molding compound, or HMC- longer fibers and a higher % glass content). This stuff is like taffy and goes in the 300 ton press like a wad and gets melted, spread through out the die, and cured. It seemed like such a good idea at the time (1975). The thing is they just don't sound the same. By 1985 (I think) all production had switched over to SMC (again sorry guys, it seemed like such a good idea at the time). Some sound really good but it just doesn't ring like the old glass bowls.
SO, if you really want the stove knitting tree hugging bluegrass sound, you got to have an X brace, lacquer finished, straight acoustic, non cutaway, deep hand lay-up fiberglass CLOTH bowl.
By the way, this sound is much better than the stove-hugging, tree-knitting bluegrass. |
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| cwk2,
Did the same changes in bowl construction happen to the Adamas line as well?
Mike |
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Location: SoCal | In other words, a 67-68 Deluxe Balladeer like the one I just let slip thru my fingers. |
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Location: Scotland | Yeah, Paul rescued the shiny bowl D.Balladeer from an ebay seller who looked like he was going to shaft me. It's good to have a "small time thug" as a buddy, especially when you're several thousand miles away. I can't wait to get my hands on this guitar, Paul has emailed on several occasions just to tell me how great it sounds. I have a 72 legend with what must be, according to Bill's "Bowl Timeline" an original cloth bowl, and frankly it's nothing to get excited about, so it has to be more than just the bowl. Maybe the VT bracing is the problem. Bill do I take it that the earlier guitars had a thinner finish which was changed to polyester later in production?, this would also have a big effect. |
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Location: SoCal | Rescuing the guitar was nothing. I only hit the guy once or twice.
Paul, it might also be the angle of the headstock which gave it a brighter sound. My guess is the headstock, the bracing, and possibly the extra finish on the bowl (textured vs. shinny) made a big difference in the sound.
As it is, I intend to patiently look for a 60's Deluxe Balladeer at a resonable price.
Paul, your guitar and Cliff's Adamas, are going to get people talking. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I think my Adamas has a "Super Bowl" Oh well ok, not a very funny pun.....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Well, well
Here we are talking about SOUND instead of appearance, could it be that guitar players like good sounding guitars. Geez, I never heard a picker say, It was sooo purty that I just couldn't resist playing it even when it sounded like warmed over dog spoo (to quote a closet acoustic sound freak, that posts frequently). Are we close to a collectable that will not bring shame to the discerning ear? Can we overcome the changes in manufacturing that may have forever ended the chances of a revival of the late 60's Ovations. This subject is too important to be relegated to the back burner.
Bailey |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | All production means all production as in everything. Adamas 1 was last. Ad2 never had cloth.
Paul T, There were dogs made with the cloth bowls for sure just as there are good ones with the smc. It's just while we're covering all the variables this should be thrown in the mix.
Lacquer was used in 66 and maybe till as late as 68. After that Polyester was used. Now this will sound pretty good if it stays thin enough. It's a very hard finish. There was a ton of trouble with finish cracks with it. Lots from shipping in the winter. SO urethane was added which made it softer and more elastic. I think it was 70 poly 30 urethane. They've switched to something else now, not sure what. It's like the next generation and I think it's much better than the 70/30.
I follow the theory that softer is bad because it tends to absorb sound. Harder will reflect it more. SMC by its nature in an absorbant material whereas the poly resign/cloth is more brittle and will reflect sound more. Morebetta.
SO now we can talk about the inside ring which holds the top to the bowl. The first ones were very small and thin and pressed with the same poly resign and a fiberglass matting stuff. Looks like that green scotchbrite stuff (you know, the fake steel wool) only this was white. Again, hard, thin lightweight. After that was this big black molded ABS 3/4" square piece. (ABS- read soft plastic) This started in the early 70's? It effectively made all guitars 1 1/4" narrower since it reduced the vibrating surface by that much. After this is the molded small inner ring like was used on the usa made applesause (75-82) This made it into the line by the mid 80's for all but the adamas1. It was used for the Ad2. This inner ring, while being abs is quite small and has a very high glass content, 30% maybe? The big black ring was all abs, 0 glass. It is quite close to the original design and much better.
and so much for today's discussion. |
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| The 2003 Collectors features inlaid epaulettes. That seems like a pretty major innovation to be first featured on a Collectors model. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | dubyatoo
It sounds like some of the knowledge is still around for the barnburner that I proposed. |
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Location: SoCal | It almost sounds as if to get the production costs down, and the durability quality up, the guitars, from the 60's to the 70's, lost a lot of what made their special sound. |
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Location: SoCal | Now I'm curious, and I suspect that Bill can answer this question:
How can one tell what kind of bowl one's guitar consists of? Obviously, after 1985, the answer is mute. But for a guitar like my 1983 Elite 1537, how can I tell by looking, what it has? |
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Location: Florida Space Coast | That’s a good question Paul.
I just checked my early seventies USA made deep bowl Applause and I’m not able to see much difference between it and my 2002 Balladeer mid bowl in the appearance.
I seem to recall that early on the Applause definitely had a fiber glass resin smell to it but I guess it’s faded with age like my memory :) |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Moody, the cloth bowls had either a wood heel block or a molded one. In either case they were glued in. The cloth bowls look a little different on the inside, more irregular, and no mold lines. If the heel block is molded into the bowl, it's all SMC.
GuitarMan. My first hand knowledge of Ovation stops at 1998. Inlayed epauletts sounds like a good idea. |
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Fancy Woods on Collector Series