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Location: Hicksville, NY | My apologies for the off topic post ... I just need a place to vent.
For seven years, I was a member of an English Ministry located in Queens where I served and participated in, faithfully and consistently with various groups and activities. Most recently, I was a member of the praise team where I played guitar, and once in a while, backup vocals.
After a briefing with the new pastor which left me feeling somewhat bitter about it, I decided to call it quits. After my last Sunday there, I wrote to him bidding my farewell ...
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October 15, 2006
Dear Pastor xxx,
I am happy to see that the 2:00 p.m. service is up and running again. Sadly, my attendance there today, was also going to be my last. After careful thought, consideration and prayer, I have decided to follow God's will to continue praising, glorifying, and serving Him at an English Ministry closer to home.
I cannot say enough wonderful things about XXXX, especially with all the friendships and camaraderie that I have shared and enjoyed in my years there. It will truly be memorable for many years to come. I am thankful for having had the opportunity to be a part of XXXX, and offer my best wishes to everyone for its continued success.
Sincerely yours,
Gil
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the very next day, here was his reply:
Thanks for letting me know
Good luck
xxx x
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That's it! I am amazed to know that I am expendable as the person sitting next to me. How sad...
Once again, I am sorry for the not-so-enthusiastic post ... I just needed to vent. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | That separation can be a tough one. See what it is you are to experience and take part in next.
These are seasons. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Well, judging by the pastor's response, it sounds like you made good decision. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Try looking at it from his point of view. After all, it was you who rejected him.
And, respectfully, I am compelled to say that you shouldn't participate in ministry activities in order to feel elevated. We are all equal in the Eyes of the Lord, which indeed makes us "just as expendable as the person sitting next to [us]".
Please don't take offense at this. I hope this posting doesn't sound too "sharp". I am sure you will find a new place soon. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | My .02, Omaha has a point. As a 90% drummer and 10% guitar player in our praise band, I find myself slipping into the self gratification thing now and then. We have to remember, we are SERVING the Lord in a musical capacity, not putting on a show for the people. Change is very hard to deal with sometimes. I have been tempted ot quit now and then when things don't go as expected, but I remind myself to look at the big picture. I'm sure there are better things in store for you. Your pastors response was a bit short, but as Omaha said, you had the issue with him, and as a former boss, who let me go said, "I hate long goodbyes" |
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Location: Upper Left USA | This is a relevant post, in that Band dynamics, whether in a Worship or other setting are an interesting subject.
Few groups are "together" for a long period and each of us finds how replacable we are.
I have recently left a church body (not faith) because the rules/management/attitudes changed and it wasn't were I could minister anymore. I miss the musician's and many of the people immensely but I know it can't be like it was again.
I am finding it difficult to "drop in" to a new group immediately so I am trying to remain open to where I am being called. What I found in at least two churches is that as a "guitar Player" I am part of a saturated market! It would be easier if I were a bass player or if I played lead guitar.
I am thinking that it means I need to take some lessons and learn how to really play some of these solidbodies I have been putting together.
I may even become a better musician and minister.
I may have to take some uncomfortable steps!
I may even grow in this trial!
Does this sound like anything God might have a hand in? |
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Location: NJ | a good friend ran the choir at a local church for over 12 years. A new pastor came in and he was just told not to show up any more. sad but these things happen. look at them as windows instead of doors. |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Exactly. After all, it's all just people, and we are all far from perfect. That's why we have Grace in the first place.
After leading a praise band for 3 years, I moved away (job-related) from my church and am slowly finding a place in a new one, currently playing acoustic guitar for 75 middle schoolers. :eek: :eek: :eek:
In the meantime, I have found joy in the time that I already spent leading, and though I am not playing in what I consider my best capacity right now, I have the joy of knowing that there is more in store for me in the future. I've met some great people, and some I didn't care for as much, but I am playing guitar and serving the Lord, which is the best that I can ever have!!!
Keep with it, bro - lots of us here to love you, and no one is expendable in the Kingdom! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | The point of bitterness I got from Gil's post was that the pastor could have taken a few more mintues of his time and sent a slightly longer/more personal reply.
No one is expendable but seven years is long enough to receive a response with a little more compassion. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I would not take his response personally. After all, you do not know the context within which it was written. Maybe his wife just died, maybe the house burned down, maybe he was sick, etc. You can't read more into emails than is actually there. He wished you good luck. Take that as a positive.
My son had a situation with an online fantasy baseball league a few years ago. He was communicating online with one of the members but only got these short one word responses and often mistyped. My son complained to me about how "the idiot" would not communicate with him and was so stuck up that he thinks "he's above us". Turned out the guy had lost both arms in an accident and typed using a stick in his mouth. Like I said, you can't read more into it than is actually there.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | I fully expect that one day, when my church finds a real guitar player, that I'll be asked to leave.... it's only a matter of time. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Is it the "Real Guitar Player Wanted" sign out front that makes you think that, Paul? |
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Location: CT | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I fully expect that one day, when my church finds a real guitar player, that I'll be asked to leave.... it's only a matter of time. I hope this doesn't happen. Our Church has many musicians, and more than it's share of guitar players. The worship leader knows everyone's strengths and uses them as he sees fit. IMO, I suck as a 'Real' guitar player, but can read a little music, know notes and key signatures and can hold a beat. A couple of years ago a professional player signed up with the group, and I thought I would be phased out. I envy how he plays with seemingly no effort, and puts my playing to shame. Fast forward to now, I still see a little more playing time than him, because more often than not the worship leader needs background chording and arpeggios, not the ability for a lead break between modulations. If you're moved to a new church for one reason or another, maybe thats where your abilities can best be put to use for now. |
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Location: Waurika OK | Gil,
Your feelings are only natural and I am glad you feel you can vent here. As you can see you have a lot of support.
At the end of this year I will have been the preacher at this congrgation for 18 years.
At the beginning, I told the leaders that if they decide they want to have someone else, I will not cause a problem. It would not be easy, but that is what I would do.
I have not been a preacher all my life, but whether in ministry or "secular" work, I have learned something. That by not becoming bitter new doors opened, every time!
Sometimes it was freeing me to do what I really wanted to do, other times it forced me to look for new opportunities, usually kicked me out of my comfort zone and pushed me to a new level of acheivement.
I didn't like those "low blows", disappointment and hurt feelings often accompanied them, and this is only natural for all of us.
Whether it is building callouses on your fingertips or character in ones life, real progress only comes from the painful things of life.
The truth is, we are as expendable as the person next to us. This is nothing against you as a person, it is just the reality of life.
Keep your chin up, look life straight in the eye, and forge ahead. |
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Location: East Tennessee | Remember ' "Your windsheild is larger than your rearview mirror". |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | That's what I hate about email....but truth is, you have a couple of things to deal with.
First, keep in mind that a "resignation letter" in this sort of setting was probably not the proper way to handle it as brothers are supposed to go to brothers and settle their beef's eye to eye. It's hard, especially when we see another person heading a wrong direction and they don't see it, but still is needful.
Second, I look at participation in worship as a ministry. Ministries should be established by a call of the Spirit, not necessarily where our talents and own desires rest. So as others have stated, take a look at what God has for you now, and be careful not to let bitterness or resentment get going.
We are always going to offend each other at some point, and the one primary characteristic of Christ that us Christians seem to forget it GRACE. As noted, perhaps he was hurt by your letter, or had a bad day, or.....whatever the case, you must "grace" him in his response and either go and clear the air or leave it completely in the Lord's hands. Otherwise, it will eventually eat at you and impact your witness.
Hang in there, pray and let God show you where he wants to use you next. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Gospel Guitar Guy:
Remember ' "Your windsheild is larger than your rearview mirror". What a GREAT GREAT saying that is! |
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Location: East Tennessee | stephent28,
I think it is a line from a country song not something I came up with. :cool:
I like what JeffreyD said. |
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| Amazing how unChristian some paid Christians can be. Some of them even invade other countries. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | You just can't behave, can you...? |
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| Sorry. I was sitting here waiting for nthe rapture when the devil made me do it. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Two observations:
1)A-holes play many roles, including the clergy and members of their flock.
2)Applying my Amazing Carnac powers, I cannot divine the truth based on this fact pattern. If it's only a band issue, bands break up all the time. Don't worry, you'll find a new group.
PS He didn't excommmunicate you did he?
PSS What's an English Ministry? God knows, they need it more than most! |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | If you don't know what it is, how can you know they need more of it?
That kind of logic only works for Tequilla!
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Expendable? Well, we all have an expiry date. Just don't know what it is!
Everything else's a guess.
'course, that's more an agnostic way of looking at things. But at least we don't pretend to know things we don't... :rolleyes: |
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| An English Ministry is a pastor who can spell. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Reminds me of the "Naughty Vicar" skits by Monty Python. |
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Location: Hicksville, NY | My sincere thanks for all your replies. Let me explain further the event(s) which lead to my departure from this ministry.
For the past seven years, I was a member of an English Ministry that is a part of a larger Korean Presbyterian church, located in Queens. As of this writing, the EM is going through a lot of transitions and changes. After the departure of the former pastor, a lot of its members either followed wherever his new church may be, or simply decided to seek a new place of worship elsewhere. I was one of the few who decided to remain, and give the new pastor the shadow of a doubt.
In my seven years there, I had my share of struggles. But I also had my share of numerous triumphs and have watched myself grow in faith as His servant in His house of worship. With the exception of missions and its Internet-based group, I had served every branch of the ministry from greeting and ushering, as well as, teaching ESL classes, and serving as a deacon-in-training for a year. Most recently I was a member of the praise team where I played acoustic guitar and once in a while, back-up vocals.
As per the new pastor, all members of the praise team, became part of his so-called "leadership" team, due to the fact that we are in front of the congregation, leading them into praise and music. He also made us attend a mandatory meeting and rehearsal every Saturday from 9 a.m. to 12 noon.
Unfortunately, I have health issues to contend with, and spent a considerable amount of time in the hospital because of it. Since my release, I have my daily struggles and adjustments every morning when I wake up, that it must be alleviated by a combination of simple exercises, prescription medication, and a strict diet, which can be time consuming. Without it, I am unable to function in an effective, efficient and productive manner for the rest of the day.
I explained my condition to the new pastor. It's not that I could not make it during the Saturday meetings, but I just could not make it on time, as per my health concerns. I may arrive late for at least, 30 minutes because of it. I also added that I have such a strong desire to follow God's will and to continue serving Him, thus there had to be some exceptions to the rule. Instead, the pastor asked me to step down.
Sadly, I decided to make this past Sunday (10/15/2006) my last attendance there. I was just another warm body among the congregation praising and glorifying God that day. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Sounds like all this church spoo is getting a little corporate. If it walks like a suit and quacks like a suit, and dresses like a suit.....
Anyhow this always seems to make people mad when I tell it, but that is not my intension. We were at a nice southern dinner and after everyone got done talking about the football game, and our dear president it got onto all the church services they go to, Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday night. They wanted to know about me. I said I went to the church of Callaway for 4-5 hours every Sunday and sometimes on Saturday when I could get a tee time. As far as Wednesday night Bible study I replied that to me religion was like the times tables, you learn it when you're young and use it the rest of your life. However once you're past 30-40-50(you pick the number) you don't need to relearn how much 9X9 is. It got real quite and they said "You're not from around here, Are you?" and then went on to debate if I had a real point or not. We left before the final verdict arrived. Since we've not been asked back for dinner I just assume it was unfavorable.
At least one guy agreed, he's joined our foursome.
My simple point it A. learn the how to act Christian stuff early.
B. live by it. Just do it. You don't need to read the book again! |
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Location: Cicero, NY | "You're not from around here, Are you?"
:D :D |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | That would explain your 36 handicap! :eek: :eek: |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I own a set of clubs, so therefore I can be called a Golfer. There are poor Golfers and better golfers. There are some that go for the company, some that go for the walk'in n cuss'in and some that go because they truly love the game and it is part of them. They feel the call to endure, struggle and perfect their game.
But it is just a game.
Your relationship with your Creator (and we each have one, however we view it)is something different. I have also learned this is not the place to have a serious conversation about that sort of thing. It can only end in chaotic defense and internet spoo.
I've been to dinners like that too Bill. Usually it ended in an Amway presentation. |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Originally posted by schroeder:
Amazing how unChristian some paid Christians can be. Some of them even invade other countries. It's an interesting point you bring up, and I think that it speaks to the whole reason behind the first post on this thread.
The perception that the vast majority of people, including those who do believe, is that Christians or other religious people are or should be better or on a higher level than everyone else. The reality is that NOTHING could be further from the truth. I've been let down by more Christians than non in my life, and I'm not the only one. It's like at some base level, we forget that we're all still human, even the Canadians (sorry guys ;) ).
I have a good friend who's a long-time Christian, who refuses to go to church at all because of a bad experience he had in a church (with church people) when he was younger. This happens all the time. It's kind of like your story, Bill, that you go when you're a kid, and then move away from it as you get older, and you develop a different kind of view of "churchy" or "religious" people as a whole. If you stay involved, you expect that people that are like you there will live up to all your expectations and not let you down.
The problem is that the term "un-Christian" doesn't mean anything. Being a Christian doesn't mean you don't screw up. It doesn't mean that you're better than anyone else. People usually expect different things of you, but you don't stop being a faulty, prideful, selfish human being, like we all are.
On Bill's analogy again, the truth is it doesn't matter if you ever go to a church, read a Bible, or sing a song. At the basemost level, not a single piece of that matters. Arguments over denominations and traditions are less important and more subjective than arguments over politics. To be a Christian is to come to grips with the fact that you DO screw up, and to try to live your life striving for that perfection - something you can't ever possibly achieve on your own. So, to be "un-Christian" would be what - to NOT acknowledge that you screw up? I think that the basis for virtually all dissapointment in people of a "religious" or "spiritual" persuasion stems from the assumption that they are better (or think they are) than everyone else.
Unfortunately, a lot of "Christian" people use heir religious status or image as a front, an excuse to glorify themselves or a way to appear better than those around them, and cause a bad image to appear on those who don't deserve it. The same holds true for non-Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, even athiests - any time we are given a position or perception of authority, as human beings our innate desires run directly contrary to what we should know to be right. It would be the same if we assume that all Islamic people are genocidal maniacs - generalizing like that is as ludicrous as assuming that someone is without failing just because they are religious.
As humans, we can't ever achieve perfection. Taking this back to the main topic, even pastors fail, ministers have a bad day, and I still curse when I hit my toe with a hammer. The problem is putting your trust in PEOPLE and not what you believe in your heart. People will fail, guaranteed, no matter where they are in life. Even Billy Graham had his failings.
If another Christian (or anyone for that matter) does something that hurts you or bothers you, you have the choice to either confront them over it for the sake of reconciliation, or let it go and move on. Either way, you will always have the experiences along the way, and this is not the end of the journey. Sometimes we are led different directions for a season, sometimes to grow, sometimes to rest.
It's hard to see the whole path until you're standing on the mountain top. |
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Location: SoCal | Amazing how unChristian some paid Christians can be. Some of them even invade other countries. some with guns, some to proselytize as their beliefs are "better"...how can we tell the faithful that held their beliefs in the Soviet Union, China, and elsewhere under Communism that a "traveling bible salesman" knows better. |
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Location: Houston, Texas |
Amazing how unChristian some paid Christians can be. Some of them even invade other countries. some with guns, some to proselytize as their beliefs are "better"...how can we tell the faithful that held their beliefs in the Soviet Union, China, and elsewhere under Communism that a "traveling bible salesman" knows better. All the religions in the world can't all be right. The height of arrogance in the world is to believe that your religious beliefs are correct.
Yet higher education and the scientific process of peer revue and repeatability has proven that anyone, in any country, of any belief, can create a nuclear weapon.
It's time for all people, everywhere, to realize that we must recognize what the human race doesn't know and what it does. And to stop believing in ancient rituals and beliefs in an afterlife which has no scientific basis whatsoever.
Yes, every individual is expendable because life itelf is self-perpetuating. But if we continue to believe in what was thought to be fact thousands of years ago and ignore what humankind has learned as fact up to the present, then all of humankind and life itself on this planet is expendable.
Hey, if everyone would just acknowledge that no one knows for sure how life started, or the origin of the universe, humankind would have a better chance for survival in the long term, considering what man has been able to achieve through the educational and scientific process.
How can mankind be so smart yet so stupid? :(
It's a stark reality. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | And I hope here ends (or rather doesn't start) any religious discussion. but on topic...
I guess every conversation needs a putz (can I say that here) and it's going to be me. Did you really expect to even get a response? Let me understand this... and I am not immune that you had reasons... but the bottom line is that after seven years I'm sure there were some expectations of you, and with basically no notice, you inform them that the last gig (that day) was your last gig? I'm surprised you got any response at all and I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to use them for a reference.
Maybe I'm a bit bent, but isn't nicer to leave a position you care about, knowing they obviously will survive without you, than to have gotten some long slobbery "we need you, please reconsider" that would make you feel guilty about following your own heart?
I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I don't mean to come across as cold, but I'm a realist. |
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Location: SoCal | I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I don't mean to come across as cold, but I'm a realist.
we'll accept "realist" but not cold :p |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | Maryanne and I have considered from time to time the possibility of moving to a warmer climate...maybe easier on the arthritis. The trouble is, as soon as you move south of the Mason-Dixon line and look at churches you're forced to deal with Southern Gospel. Can't go THERE.
All kidding aside, I'm not ashamed of my faith because of this new pastor's behavior. I'm not ashamed of my faith because of Bill's unfortunate dinner experience. Some people are just jerks...no matter what label they go by.
Please don't take the guys on this thread and lump us in with the worst examples of Christianity you've met; we're just trying to make our way through life just like everyone else.
John <>{ |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | ...though I like to think the fact that we play Ovations gives us an edge. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by edensharvest:
and I still curse when I hit my toe with a hammer. Get your work up on a bench and this won't happen any more...  |
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Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado | "when I hit my toe with a hammer."
Well.. Heck...
There's your problem..
You're supposed to hold the nail with your fingers!
;) |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Maybe this calls for a song:
Dashboard Jesus
Then all I can say is accept no substitutes... |
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OT: we are expendable ... or are we?