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Location: atlanta | Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/...
I wonder if this is also true for the US?
Dave K. |
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Location: San Angelo, Texas | According to industry "experts", yes sales are up in the US as well.
I know that I am selling 6-8 guitars a month that are shipping to Europe, and over twice that every month that are local or shipping to a US address, and I'm just a little boutique store in a small town.
Al, what are you hearing? |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by GregoryS...again:
Al, what are you hearing? From whom?
In reference to what? |
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Location: Scotland | The Brit guitar scare has been floating around the press for a while now, but nobody I know in the industry knows why. Maybe there was nothing happening in Iraq or Afghanistan and they needed to fill up some column inches.
The biggest retailer of guitars in the UK is a high street warehouse chain called Argos. They sell absolutely everything from furniture to cheap jewelry, toys, power tools, etc etc. In terms of volume they sell more musical instruments than any other UK retailer but it's all cheap entry level shite to moms and dads who don't know where else to go for quality, advice or after sales (Go back to Argos with an intonation or set-up problem and see how far you get)
The over 50's hobbyists are buying high ticket quality guitars and boutique amps, but that's a VERY small percentage of the market. The kids are buying sub £200 Chinese stuff. The pros use what they have and buy next to nothing or get it given. The majority of it is cheap discounted product with very narrow margins, and nobody stays in business like that, unless it's in massive volume. Alternatively, stores are stocking a few dozen Gibsons or whatever, tie up a ton of cash-flow and are lucky to make a couple of hundred profit on a £1500+ sale. It's nonsense, sales may well be up, but margins are being cut to the bone and that is not healthy.
Every distributor's sales rep I talk to, and that's on an almost daily basis, is not telling me that they are selling tons of quality guitars. The last couple of months, at least for my company have been OK, up on this time last year, but there are guitar stores going bust every week. In fairness the stores that are going under probably deserve to. |
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Location: San Angelo, Texas | In reference to the topic, Al...from anyone you might deal with... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | So once again there is alot of smoke that the press reports on and in reality it is a pretty small fire.
It is the Walmartization of the world. Big numbers but weak quality and only the big guy makes the money. The handful of outsiders manage a living. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by GregoryS...again:
In reference to the topic, Al...from anyone you might deal with... sorry I am not exactly sure what the topic is. And people I deal with in what capacity? |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Al, Why do you always have to give Gregory a hard time? |
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Location: Keller, TX | It seems that everyone else seems to know what is being discussed. |
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Location: NJ | Sorry but I honestly don't know what he wants me to address.
How is asking for a specific question giving someone a hard time? |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Simple enough question (have you read the topic?)
No need for 20 questions........ |
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Location: NJ | yes I read the article. (a topic would be a point to discuss)
IMHO this is a very complex issue. There are many things to cosider when discussing it.
I did not ask for 20 questions just a clarification of what specifically I was to address.
I am sorry if you are reading this as confrontational trboy and ttenn, it is not meant to be that way. I just feel if my opinion is solicited I want to know exactly what I am to address.
Sorry if I offended either of you. |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | It's way tougher for the small guy than the chain stores - much more so than it has been in the past. Our business (completely unrelated to guitars) is up consistently for the past three years, but we are a small family-owned specialty bakery, and not a big commercial outfit. I do know, however, that many of what could essentially be "competitors" have had a lot of trouble in recent years, specifically the in-store supermarket bakeries in Safeway, Albertsons, Kroger, etc. I think that people are overall getting burned out of the "one stop" mantra, where you sacrifice quality for convenience.
Obviously retail is a bit different, and Costco and Walmart still pull massive numbers, but I believe we will see a trend over the next few years of a move back towards customers patronizing small businesses over super-chains.
Or, the world economy could collapse, and bring about international chaos...what do I know? |
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Location: UK - Canterbury Kent | So here I am in UK and I wonder if I am an average English guitar buyer. I learnt to play badly at school in the 60's from friends and in my twenties, bought a Rickenbacher, then a 12 string, which were both sold later to fund other projects.
In 1988, I bought a Fender Squire Strat, which came out every other month for a quick blast, but with now commitment or skill.
I then met a guy, who became a good friend and he had an Ovation Aniversary (not sure what model, but i has a very fancy bridge). It played very well and I got back into it with some lessons from him.
I then bought a Korean Ovation Celebrity CC024, which had a manufacturing fault and was awful. It was replaced by a 1778-LX-BCB, infact the second one of its type in the UK, which arrived in February 2004.
Since them, I bought a Fender Telecaster American built in 2005. In 2006, I bought a Martin D-28 with factory pick-up and a few weeks ago a Fender Strat 1970 re-issue.
So this year, I have bought two guitars and intend to buy a Valve amplifier soon, that will suit all of my guitars. I have joined a C & W band and my Fender Princetown 65 is not quite loud enough. So I am doing my bit in keeping the local guitar shops busy and they appreciate the custom.
Piers
1778-LX-BCB
Fender 1970's re-issue Stratocaster
Fender Telecaster
Martin D-28 |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
The Brit guitar scare has been floating around the press for a while now, but nobody I know in the industry knows why. Maybe there was nothing happening in Iraq or Afghanistan and they needed to fill up some column inches. One rule of thumb you can take to the bank; The media gets Every single story wrong. The facts will always be sacrificed to the slant, which will always be geared towards making the moment of the story historically pivitol in some way. In other words, hyperbole.
They will also report annecdotes as trends. I'll never forget the time in the mid60s, a Vancouver Sun reporter, having heard about skateboards in California, talked a buddy of mine into nailing rollerskate trucks to a board so they could get a picture of a new trend hitting local streets. :rolleyes: (oh, wait! that's manufacturing the news, not annecdotal...they do that too!) |
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Location: Upper Left USA | So...
I learned to play badly in the 70's, traded the guitar for marriag/babies/mortgage/etc. and then decided to rediscover the instrument about 3 1/2 years ago.
I am now on the edge of my third purchase from Al and numerous ebay exchanges to pay for them.
Just where is that demographic for 45-55 year old guitar junky? |
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Location: SoCal | Okay, what is/are the question(s)?
As a dealer, Al would have difficulty in discussing industry trends, especially as diverse as the music industry. Even as a recognized journalist in the industry. In addition, he sells internationally, new and used. Also, as any dealer, if he was privy to information, it would be his duty not to divulge (i.e., units of sales for a particular model).
Unfortunately, the article talks in generalities, not specific production or sales info about a particular company or type (heck, even as general as electric solidbody, electric semi-hollowbody, acoustic, acoustic a/e, 6-str, 12-str, etc.)
Maybe the "old-timers" can address what they have seen at NAMM over the years. Are there more manufacturers or less? More "off-shore" manufacturers? Higher quality of products from "off-shore"? More dealers or less? MAP differential v. dealer cost? Or, differential of dealer cost v. "list"? In other words, how low can a dealer go from the "list" price price in the bidding wars that we often see.
Bidding wars - example is an Ovation that has been advertised on web for $1,900-$1,999 was offered to me by a bid-box for a little less than $1,600. Was this due to a soft market for that market, another of the same model about to arrive, or? After all of the costs borne by the dealer to place and carry in inventory, would there have been the same profit v. previous years?
I would believe that some information may be available in the annual reports and other SEC filings by manufacturers. Other, by observation - how busy are the factories? How large is the eBay number of new guitar sales. How many of the eBay new sales are U.S. or "off-shore" made. How aggressive is a company's advertising. Unlike the typical one-page monthly placement, is there an aggressive campaign by an established company to increase market share?
Now, we know that there is a decent market for string instruments, low or high. We also know that there have been periods of time when all guitar companies struggled due to decreased demand.
IMHO, the problem isn't the lack of demand...it is the changing marketplace with overseas producers making higher quality and more instruments than before (? since about 1980). We see that in many other industries, to include auto and trucks. The changes in marketing from the "mom & pop" to large stores carring a number of products (i.e., GC) and the internet. We even see this affecting the margins which directly affect the bottom line of the dealer and manufacturer.
Is it possible to have a 20% increase in sales and a profit increase of 2%, break-even, or even a loss for a dealer or manufacturer? Yep!
So, what is the question? |
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Location: Australia | "If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed".
Mark Twain |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | That's sooooo much more true than I really want it to be. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Tony Calman:
How large is the eBay number of new guitar sales. One of the Ebay guys on their booth at NAMM told me that the Musical Instrument section of Ebay.com has an annual throughput of around $3 Billion, and that was a couple of years ago. That's new, used, auction, buy it now, the lot. Just imagine the figure for every category, then all the global sites. And they take a commmission on the lot. |
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Location: SoCal | gee, by word count alone, I thought I'd killed this thread.
oh well :eek: |
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Location: Spain | UK market must suffer if buyers can buy a guitar in the USA and ship it and save a small fortune God bless the internet. |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Let's see... Marketing 101
Price, Product, Place, Promotion, Plan...
It is the "marketers" job to work the 5 P's every day. If one of the P's is way out of line... You will struggle. Maybe even fail.
I do like the USA Ovation "product" and "price". I do believe "we" get alot for the price.
"Place" can be a trouble spot for some. How often have we read that "you never see a high end "O" in my area..." I do understand inventory cost. I do understand the challenges of "old" inventory.
This is a challenge for the Mother Ship.
Promotion... Often this is put on what's not moving and is $$$ off, or an extended payment term. Take delivery and pay in 90 or 120 or 6 months from now!
IMHO this is not a long term solution.
PLAN !!! Now that's what the big buck's are paid for. Reality... If you don't see $$$ mesurable results in 90 / 120 days... The plan sucks.
That is not always the case. A solid plan, worked hard can... Stop a slide.
IMHO:
I believe the USA product is still hand cuffed with the Korean "twin". I think the Koa Celeb and 2006 Collector wasn't well thought out.
I do understand those that think Ovation guitars
suck... They have never played a USA made.
Lets see, whose fault is that?
Woz |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | That's a great article. Guitar sales are way up. Why? The quality of the Korean and Chinese guitars has improved to the point that now you can buy a really nice guitar for dirt cheap compared to what was available 15 years ago.
For those of you who went to the '06 OFC tour, you may remember what Frank Untermeyer said. His biggest marketing concern was the Chinese. Frank is an expert on making and marketing guitars. He's the man in charge at the Ovation factory and before that he was in charge of the old Hamer factory. Frank knows how to make and sell guitars. He admitted that the quality of the Chinese guitars is getting better and better every year, and Ovation is working hard to keep a step or two ahead in terms of innovation and quality.
Until just this past weekend I was a guitar snob. If a guitar was not Made in USA, it was crap. I was lured to the local GC on Labor Day by their "List" sale. They offered a $10 coupon on the 'net. I was going there just to get that new Ephiphone Valve Junior amp and save a quick 10 bucks. I ended up getting the combo version (for $88) and a Korean made Schecter hollow body electric guitar. I was amazed at the quality of the Schecter-all gold hardware, Grover tuners, Duncan designed humbuckers, a chambered out hollow body, beautiful mahogany/maple wood, clean frets and a sculpted set neck. The guitar cost $341 and I got a free 15 watt Crate amp that I'm selling on eBay to defray the cost.
I have always been an acoustic guitar player, but I love this Schecter and the sound through the Valve Junior is incredible. I haven't had this much fun playing guitar ever.
The Chinese and Korean guitars and amps (the Epi is Chinese) are amazing quality for the price and the quality will keep getting better. Compare any Korean made guitar from 10 years ago to a new one and you'll see the difference.
It's the imports that allow stores like GC to exist. The amazing quality of the imports is what is fueling the sales of guitars now. For a hobbyist like me, its a great thing. It's also great for GAS relief. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by Woz:
Let's see... Marketing 101
Price, Product, Place, Promotion, Plan...
It is the "marketers" job to work the 5 P's every day. If one of the P's is way out of line... You will struggle. Maybe even fail.
Woz now you tell me. I have been doing it all wrong. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Mitchrx:
That's a great article. No it's not. As somebody who makes the bulk of my living now from music retail I can assure you it's waffle, bullshit, filler. There's no substance to the article or any real financial analysis to back up the statement. First they talk about UK guitar sales and then reference a Nashville-based dealer widely recognised as the Sgt Bilko of the industry, then talk to Jim Beloff, the USA's leading ukulele salesman as if either have any relevance to the point of the piece. WTF???????? If they are going to write an article about the state of UK guitar sales, you'd think they could find a UK dealer to talk to for Christ's sake. There's dozens within spitting distance of their offices. The only UK store mentioned, at the end of the piece is a Uke specialist. Sloppy, half-assed, badly researched, lazy journalism, as usual.
In fact when I read it it reminded me of some of the assignments I used to mark when I was teaching full time. I'd start reading and 2 or 3 paragrahs in I'd realise that there was no real understanding or affinity for the subject, but at least they had Google!!! Cut'n'paste Journalism. |
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| Argos journalism. |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Hey Temp, lighten up. I thought it was an entertaining article. As a consumer, not a retailer, it was fun to read. I'm not interested in the "facts and figures." The Uke stuff at the end was filler, but it was interesting nonetheless. Lazy journalism? Yeah, maybe, but don't you sometimes like to read something just for fun? I do. I don't think that the article was ever intended to be a serious analysis of guitar sales in the UK, but rather just a commentary on why guitar sales have gone up. |
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Location: Scotland | If that's the case I'm still waiting for his comments. |
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UK guitar sales at all-time record