|
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1138
Location: CT | So is the #47 re-issue the pinnacle of the Ovation line? I've seen this over and over. I've never played one and at 5K or more, will never own one. So here's my question. Isn't #47 30 years old or more? So shouldn't we have 30 or so years of improvements on that design for a better sounding, playing, and looking guitar(at <5k because of improved building techniques)? I understand the need for wood topped guitars, and also less expensive ones, but why isn't the current Adamas line 30 years ahead of #47? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | My take: Slothead was developed in a "screw the cost and manufacturability" mentality. Proved too expensive to take into production. Little by little over the years the product got chiseled down. Just compare epaulets over the years as a good example.
I've played 5 different 47RI's. They are terriffic and in my opinion the best sounding Adamas ever. I played the 47RI next to several other original slotheads. They sound identical. Of course the originals score high marks for being very historical. But the reissues are way better quality control. Just wonderful guitars.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | I believe a textured top (versus SMT or CVT) and slothead is the pinnacle. That being said, the original slotheads would, assuming no damage, be the preferred over the reissue.
As to improvements, this is an acoustic so not comparing improvements in the pre-amp. Personally, how do you improve an acoustic guitar that had a quality neck, projection chamber, and top?
Anyone considering buying one needs to consider the benefit/cost. To me, the 47RI is the best NEW guitar. However, the U681T or 1687RI are great for a lot less $'s. Would the audience know the difference? Heck, as this is acoustic, the U681T or 1687RI are better performing instruments.
This is new nostalgia...kind of like the AC Shelby 427 Cobra. There are nice fiberglass kits out there but if Ford/Shelby came out with a limited production...gee, I wish.
 |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | You ask a good question. I would say that #47 is the sweet spot of the Adammas line, and the other models, although very good guitars, just ain't a #47. Part true fact, part marketing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | I don't think the 47 reissue needs any justification. It was built in limited numbers at a premium price, take it or leave it. The 47RI didn't make it to any trade show as far as I'm aware, and only a handful of potential customers had the opportunity to hear them before placing orders, yet every one is sold. It really isn't a price issue. It's kinda like a Rolls Royce, if you have to ask the price, you cant afford it. And that's OK, most people can't afford a PRS private stock guitar, but as a dream model it's a hell of an aspirational marketing tool for the rest of the line.
Suggesting that a current Adamas should have "30 years of improvements" makes about as much sense as asking why Martin are charging thousands for versions of guitars which many people think reached perfection in the mid 1930's or why National charge a couple of grand for a replica of an instrument which sold for around 30 bucks and hasn't been "improved" since the mid-20's or asking if a current Custom Shop Fender Telecaster should be "50-odd years better" than an original. The expression "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind.
For many people a Ute or 2080 may well be a better, more practical guitar than a 47RI, and both of those have 30 years of hindsight. You pays your money and takes your choice. Or not. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Having played two 47RIs and the Original...
I thought the RI's sounded better (Esp #16) than the original.
I LUV the asthetics of the 47s, but compared to the Ute, purely on sound, it'd be a tough call. It'd had been a while since I heard my Ute, when I played the 47's, but I thought the 47's had less low end and only slightly more balanced tone.
Playability?... Ute hands down. Man, is that neck sweet. The Ute plays better than any other O/A (and better than most every other guitar I've had the chance to play)
.... Keep in mind, I'da been all over the 47Ri if it had been available with a wider neck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 651
Location: Australia | I've also played 2 RI's and the original and I thought the RI's sounded better.
It's such a good guitar it's a pity the slothead Adamas is not avaliable as a special order model even at a premium price. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Jeff, I thought your original post said that #15 was the cats meow. Is your memory failing or has time changed your recollections and you now remember #16 as being sweeter.
Dave said he thought they sounded almost identical. What was the difference for you (and which one do you think was REALLY better (assuming you can remember that far back!) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | my memory is failing... it was #15 (it was the lower serial # of the reissues there). They all sounded very good, but 15 sounded slightly more open, a bit more dynamic through the range. It seemed more crisp and responsive. ymmv
I'm assuming the strings were comparable in terms of use and age... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | I've played a bunch of the original slotheads and probably 10 of the RI's. They both sound great yet they are all unique as guitars. One thing that I have learned in this process is that there are varying degrees of good. I guess it is like picking out donuts and deciding which one has more or less stuffing in it.
Yes there has been improvements. but with that said I see no reason to change the process |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | They are all great, in interesting study of 10s. My favorite is still the Academy. I'm holding out for that reissue. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | Whilst trying guitars at the 06 Tour I had a great time holding history and being with a bunch of you Ovation Nuts. While I did try just about everything on the rack and some of the "in repair" I couldn't hear a dang thing with all of you overexcited guitar players doing exactly what I was doing!
:D
It was fun though! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by alpep:
I guess it is like picking out donuts  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Slag,
I read this while licking one of my horse's salt blocks. I truly wonder whether it's possible to get an unbiased answer to your question?
Owners of "boutique/specials/reissues" might have a natural tendency to "puff" their purchase - a self-justification for the expensive purchase? Sellers might indulge in marketing hype. Others could be motivated to keep the market stirred so the resale value is high. Still others might shovel how great expensive guitars are because of unalloyed snobbery. Everyone is telling the "truth" from their perspective?
How does one sift through all the potential *BS* and get an honest answer? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | DONUTS is a very sad subject with me these days. About 2 weeks ago Krispy Kreme closed up all their Arizona stores. I've lost 4 pounds and I'm pissed about it.
Back to the Slotheads. I for one doubt if I could ever pick out an original vs. one of the reissues. They all very slightly from one to another. I think I've played 4 originals and 6 reissues. Unfortunately not all at the same time. Played two reissues side by side in a very quite setting (backyard of Adamasplayer) and they were dead nuts identical. Played two reissues and two originals at the factory and it was too noisy to really tell. Cliffs acoustic sounds very nice to me. Although I doubt if really any different than the reissues except for the llama goo. Yeah, like has been said before it's donuts, ice creme, etc ....
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
How does one sift through all the potential *BS* and get an honest answer? There IS no answer. You have to sit down and try one for yourself. Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | It's true that from some sources one might have to plow through the *BS*, but by in large, I think folks on the board do their best to give honest opinions and though they may be subjective, they are still worth something, more than llama spoo.
(except Stephen T28's) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | I think that Tuppy is correct in that you'll never know until you TRY one.
That being said, I seriously doubt that ANYONE (even someone buying it at List/SightUnseen) would be disappointed with their purchase. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | What I like about the Broken - OK - Good - Really Good - Wow! O's and A's I have played is that you can get a different sound out of them by playing differently.
On some they loan themselves to a different sound or style more easily.
I like fingerstyle on the 1112 and 1114 while the 1778LX is a strumming thumper.
These are tools. Damn good tools.
That should clear things up, right? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Tuppy and MW hit it on the head - this is so subjective that trying one out, playing your music, your way, is the only way! It's YOUR ears and eyes that have to be happy.
I bought both my Adamases (Adamasi?) without ever playing (or seeing) an Adamas and am very happy. But now I'm at a point that any upgrade would have to be a side-by-side comparison of what I have vs. the candidate purchase.
My biggest lament is that there are no stocking dealers anywhere close for high-end "Os" and "As". |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1138
Location: CT | All good points. Judgement will be different for each player, and yes Martin is still selling 1930's designs for quite a sum. So if you can't get any better(subjectively) soundwise, what about price? It's still essentially the same plastic bowl, and carbon fiber top as lesser Adamii, but you can also buy a Martin D-45 for 5k, and that has a lot more hand crafted bling. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | The bowls are hand-laid fibreglass.
The fibreglass rings are hand-molded.
The necks/headstocks/bridges, while "roughed-out" on CNC, are hand carved.
The eppaulets are WAY more exotic/intricate than production Adamas.
The guitars have an EXCEEDING amount of "hand work" applied. So much so that it's an output of 3-5 units a week.
If you were paying that many people to ASSEMBLE three guitars a week (not to mention "prepping" the components), what would you charge?? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1138
Location: CT | I have been put in my place. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | brainslag... Being around for 5months and having 200 posts..
ya shudda seen'at-one coming ;) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Brainslag really needs to attend the Factory Tour next spring. It can't be much of a drive. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5332
Location: Bluffton, SC | The process really is something to be seen, brainslag. Kind of drives it home when you see a couple of guys, not machines, doing things like sanding bindings by hand. It's really pretty impressive.
Should consider stopping by next year. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Cliff,
I understand the extra value in hand-finishing the carved wood parts, and I'd gladly pay a premium for that. But do you (or anybody?) have any insight into why a hand-laid bowl or ring would be of any higher value - either acoustically or visually? Being an ex-boatbuilder, I know hand-laid is sexy but for reproducibility I'd take a machine layup any day. Adding thoughtful hand labor to get a premium product is OK, but the rest seems to be extravagant labor for no return on the investment. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | It's an acurate (as possible) reproduction of the ORIGINAL guitar!
Can't find/afford an 30-year-old original SlotHead??
This is as close as you're gonna get! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Wasn't brainslag there??
I thought I saw his name tag on someone at the Factory (but not at the hotel) . . .
(unless maybe I'm thinking of someone else . . .) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Cliff - What you've described is an accurate reproduction of the process that produced the original. (With the exception of the top - did they use the original process for that as well?)
I would want an accurate reproduction of the unit, not the process. Hand-building could conceivably result in a dog - resin starve a portion of the hand layup, or more commonly - leave too much resin in the layup and that would just suck. With precision measurements and machine molding I would think they could reproduce the original unit with astounding accuracy. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | The top - I don't know about . . . Bill??
Is it worthwhile to gear up all that tooling/molding to produce less than 100 guitars??
(It IS a Limited Edition), and having an accurate reproduction sans the accurate process would give you a "knock-off" . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I don't think there's too much room to argue based on the results of the process they are using. The guitars look, sound and play beautifully. I haven't heard one single disappointed voice from those who own or have played one.
Except, of course, that they don't have a freakin' 1-3/4 neck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | When you guys talk about "hand laided", isn't that just another term for masturbation? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Regarding the tooling costs - absolutely not worth it for 100 units. Not even close. Wrong universe, even.
But it make you wonder how many folks would jump at the chance to buy an exact reproduction of #47 for a bit more than the price of a 1597?
Which kinda bring it full circle to Brainslag's first point? Trying to reproduce your "best" and bring down the cost using technology or better processes should be a company's target, yes? Even if you call 'em "knockoffs". |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
When you guys talk about a "hand laided" bowl, isn't that just another term for masturbation? Run Away! :eek:
I can see Al circling for a precision airstrike!
Run! :eek: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Okay, . . to bring it all around to the original question:
Don't ask me . . . I've GOT mine!!! :D |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Does it matter?
Frankly, anyone that recognizes the value of the guitar (far more than cost) has either bought one or has tried to find a way to buy one.
Procrastinators will be out of luck as the run is limited and, unless a dealer will be getting one in that doesn't have a previous commitment, no more can be ordered. Al has some still coming in but I'm not aware of any other dealers.
I am still a strong advocate of the Custom Legend, Adamas I, Adamas II,, and U681T. I have 6-str's and 12-str's. However, the 47RI is my best (and favorite) guitar. Everyone that I have allowed to play it have been estatic.
I am not insensitive to the fact that many on the OFC are not in a position to pay that much for the guitar...kids in school, other expenses. I wouldn't have been able to do this a couple of years ago. Not easy now.
Only thing I can say is that the guitar is outstanding and worth far more than I paid. In fact, far more than I will probably pay soon for the 2nd one.
So, expensive to make, expensive to buy (compared to other Ovations & Adamas)...but, definitely worth it.
All I can say is do it if you can... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Tony Calman:
So, expensive to make, expensive to buy (compared to other Ovations & Adamas)...but, definitely worth it.
Yet $5k is about "average" for a real quality wooden box guitar. And Martin, etc. don't seem to have any trouble sell plenty of them.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Well, maybe it is "sticker shock" as (I believe) this is the most expensive Ovation or Adamas offering in dollar amount for a non-special order.
Course, if we took the ? approximate $2,200 cost of an original slothead in ? 1977 and adjusted it to today's dollars (rule of 72) - the original slothead in today's dollars would be higher than the 47RI cost. Approximate: 72 divided by 30yrs...inflation and/or cost increases have averaged a lot over 2.4%. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659
Location: Hiram, Georgia | Huunnnhh? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Bottom line, original slothead sold for approximately $2,200 (not sure but should be close) in 1977...
At 4.7% average inflation, would sell for $9,000 today; at 4.1% inflation, would sell for $7,526 today.
Conservative numbers from the Fed'l Reserve CPI Calculator show that a $2,200 item in 1977 would cost $7,351.49 today based on CPI (which might not adequately reflect a musical instrument).
Again, it is a reissue using as close to the original material as possible, yet listing for $5,000 and selling for a lot less. In other words, a good deal. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659
Location: Hiram, Georgia | man, I should've went to school, thanks for clearing that up Tony, I think the more that end up in the ofc family will help to preserve the value for posterity. Knowing they are in the family gives a secure feeling even if I my never own one. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Mine (acoustic only) hung with a $2,800 tag and eventually sold for $2,400 in '77, but I do see your point, Tony. |
|
| |
#47 RI the best?