|
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| OK technology gap here once again, figure I could run this by this group and eventually get a great answer from the guys that actually know the newer products and what they can do.
Problem....:I have a great sounding band we have a small practice space that is impossible so far for me to be able to make a decent recording in.
I just want a fairly decent quality recording I can use for each member to listen to and work on their parts where they may be weak. We are doing some very complicated YES, Gentle Giant music (to name two) and the harmonies sound great but if there are problems it is difficlut to isolate a mistake and fix it without this tool at each practice.
I have given up on my slightly older tascam 8 track CD recorder. This is great for using a room mic in a quiet space or plugging in one guitar and one vocal mic at a time and recording individual instruments. I will keep this for this purpose only. Do not want to spent the money to experiment with condensor mics and placements and try to get the whole band in this space with this old machine anyhmore. So...
Now I am looking at the little "dual Condensor Mic" hand held, pocket gizmos that range from $99 to $500 and am thinking of using one of these.
Any suggestions?? any advice on how well they do or don't work.???
The other Recordings I need are DVD's for the web site to use for promotional purposes I will go with a local pro and have this done on a great old Movie theater Stage where we are planning on setting up for a week this spring to work on the "SHOW" itself. We plan to let the theater sell tickets to anyone who might like to come sit and watch a band work all this stuff out. Sort of a behind the scenes thing. Arguments, music, lights, PA adjustments. All the bugs a snags a band runs into to make a good show to present. The peopl running this place thought that was the most creative Idea they had heard of in years and can't wait to do this.
I hope what I am doing here will work as this music is a tough sell anymore in todays world that wants metal or popular dance music only it seems.
Anyway any suggestions on the little digital recorders..?
Randy |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Olympus LS-11 (from Al)
or
Zoom Q3 |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Yep, believe me I've been looking. no problem finding dozens of these recorders from every company on the planet. And high and low prices. What I was wondering was if you have a suggestion ..perhaps you could give me a quick....Why? Looking for an OFC version consumer report thing I guess.
From what I have been reading....Sometimes the expensive units do not stand up to the cheaper ones or are simply no different other than the placement of the buttons and the color of the body... at THREE times the price, if you see my point.
If they are outstanding, I don't have a problem going that way I'd just like to speak to someone, I sort of know, who actually has one and uses it for something like what I do. This group is the way to go usually.
Thanks |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Okay, I use the Zoom Q3. Here's a demo DEMO
Good mics,PLUS the advantage of video. I have yet to really go crazy with it due to other concerns, but I think it will handle whatever I was to throw at it. Super easy to use and to then download on your computer. There are lots of other peoples demos on youtube, probably of every device that's made, but I really like this item. However, you CAN'T plug directly into it, no line-in. Place it on a tripod or a mic stand directly in front of your band and it should pick up just fine. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | If you really want to isolate the tracks so that each person can hear and work on their parts you need to DI each instrument into a separate track on your tascam recorder. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Or the Zoom r-16 looks like a really cool option |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Yeah Stephen we did some of that but my tascam only has a couple of Mic line ins and a 1/4" jack, it would take all day to play a song over and over and we are not interested in this. Our bass player has a Roland unit that has a 24 channel and an extension unit. But even that is not really worth much as we need about a dozen instrument mics we get all kinds of bleed through if we go that way and we really only need two things...((Simple recordings of practices))) #1 ....the hand held units will do this and we need ((Good quality DVD's that have decent sound for the web site))) #2. Right now we can't do the DVD recording as our practice space is just not large enough to do this well. We will wait until we end up on the theater stage later this winter.
The tascam works great for me to record a nice little piece and store it so I can master it later and burn it to a CD for myself. But that is all that thing is really for....
Right now I am just trying to find the best bang for the buck in one of these little dual conderser mic units.
Thanks for the help guys. I do like the video capacity for practice as well as the visual appaerace of evveryone is important especially the singer.... I will check out the Zoom units...Now I am going to find out if I can use the video on some of these units but to save space and to get a couple of hours of recording if there are flash drive inputs or perhaps the option to use audio only if I wish.
I'll just do what most of you guys do.... Buy one I think is good and get used to it.
Randy |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Yep the Zoom Q3 has the same audio dual condensor technology most of the "audio only" units use anyway... plus you get a digital camera that is actually quite good all for around $200. God if this thing had a "true" wide angle lens for samll rooms it would be killer. It is already deadly, and I think I am going with it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | No bleed thru if you are DI'ng the instruments. It's a direct feed to the board. With mics yes but not when you DI.
Each channel would be a pristine recording of ONLY the specific instrument run into the track. No need for mics....just up to a maximum of 24 cables through the Roland if that's what you really wanted to have. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Stephen, how do I DI the drums direct exactly? I need mic's to do this right? I mean I am sure no expert but we have tried many things in here, I might not know what I am doing but the guys I have had come out do. Again I think I did not expelain myself well enough...I do that...I only need recordings of practices for our own use.....the pro quality stuff will need to be DVD....videos to run on the web site. We will get these later when we set up on the big stage...
I think my problems have been answered in this little Zoom unit...at least for the simple practice recordings for our own use that I was after. For the web site DVD's; When we set up on the stage, and I will hire a pro to come in and do it right.
Thanks for all the help guy's I know this bunch has all kinds of techno junkies. Very cool.
Randy |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Northcountry:
Stephen, how do I DI the drums direct exactly? I need mic's to do this right? You don't. You try to isolate them as much as possible using screens. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Northcountry:
I just want a fairly decent quality recording I can use for each member to listen to and work on their parts where they may be weak.
Randy I was basing my DI comments on what you said above. That you wanted each member to be able to "clearly" hear his part so that he could work on areas where they might be weak.
DI'ng the bass, guitar, keyboards, etc would allow you to go back, turn off all the other channels/tracks, and LISTEN to only the specific instrument giving you a STARK ACCURATE recording of the specific instrument in question without any bleed over from other instruments.
If I misunderstood and all you want to do is record the whole group together then carry on with the Zoom or whatever device you choose to use. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Northcountry, for what you are trying to do, most any of the recorders mentioned will work. I used a $19.95 Radio Shack Cassette deck for years..
The key is placement, and with a unit like the Olympus that Al has, that is just a matter of a little experimentation.
Start in the room, you may end up in the hall, or in the next room.
Another trick that works real well, is a couple of PZM (Pressure Zone Microphones). One drummer I worked with just tossed'em on top of the ceiling tiles in the room we rehearsed.
If placement of the Oly doesn't work, I'd try the PZM microphones.
Finally, and this will likely yield a higher quality for the kind of demo you are looking is to mic everthing up, run the snake as far away as possible (other side of house) and mix to two-track. You'll need someone that can mix.
It's a case of go big or stay home. You either do a mix to two-track (room mic, unit mics, mixer, whatever) or you do the not-listed-above full multi-track recording.
The result you are looking for is a clear mix. The quality of todays units available, you just need to get it into a spot where it hears everything.
It may require a little experimenting. Maybe the best instrument sound is achieved from the next room, but the vocals are lost. Easy fix... just run a line from the mixer for vocals to one channel and record the music on the other.
Like I said, we used a cheapo cassette deck with it's built in mic for years. We found a spot after trial and error that just worked, so that's where it sat.
Ummmm essentially what StephenT said a few moments ago that I hadn't seen when I started typing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Yep, sorry Stephen....I see your point....but as for individual tracks I think we can get the overall picture pretty good from one room recording using one of these mic/video units. We do a lot of homework. the guys are not sloppy at all but just to get an "overall picture" it is not easy when your in the middle of playing to know if something is missing or the sounds are not quite what ya want....If you see my point. I need to see myself singing we all need to see ourselves also, this is all part of producing a good stage show. Our sound man is not always there to help with this and we do not use his 24,000 watts of crown powered PA just my little rig I have a partial photo of on the ning site.
I see what you mean isolate the drums.....Get it now.... we have tried a lot of things but even then for what its worth this will be much simpler....these little hand held units with the dual condesors work real well from what I am reading....Like Miles said experiment with placement...we should do OK for what I need I think....Miles As for going big yeah we decided not to bother....No need.....We don't need the seperate channel recordings.....I'd pay someone like yourself to do that in a rooom that is big enough and built to do that....Problem is we need full video's these days not just the audio.....so since we have to hire a good video guy to ddo thia as none of us have outstanding cmera equipment....when we Go Big it will be during our initial set up at the theater in Gloversville NY we will be there for a week with the full PA Lights and DVD projector and on a full size Stage....Again if you see what I am going for... People will be able to come and buy tickets to see a band try and work out the bugs of a raod show live.....this gives us a great stage for nothing and a great place to get some serious video made.
I will experiment with the little unit like you said Miles. Sorry this got confusing.
Thanks again guys, this band is unreal..hope some of you guy's will take the time, if we are near you, to come see this. I can assure you there is no one anywhere doing what we are doing, this music is only sellable to a specialized crowd and not a lot of venues willing to take a chance on this stuff, but there are a few.
Randy |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Post up an mp3.
I'd love to hear what you guys are doing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Now that's funny! I certainly will Stephen just as soon as I get something recorded....
Web site is www.DowningGrey.com but there is nothing there, we just reformed for the third...and I think last time with new Bass new Keys and new drums. But these new guys are amazing and I am playing keep up this time...
Thanks again guy's
always a pleasure and the info is always good. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Well, you've got my interest. Anxiously await your postings. The zoom Q3 is $250, and you get great mics AND video. I would think video of how your band LOOKS playing would be good info to have. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 1455
Location: Texas | I haven't figured out why folks are choosing the Q3 over the similarly-sized Zoom H4N for recording music? If you don't need to record video, doesn't the H4N offer a lot more functionality for only about $50 more? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by stephent28:
No bleed thru if you are DI'ng the instruments. It's a direct feed to the board. With mics yes but not when you DI.
Each channel would be a pristine recording of ONLY the specific instrument run into the track. No need for mics....just up to a maximum of 24 cables through the Roland if that's what you really wanted to have. Heya NORTH ,
Stephen and Mr.O are the Big Boys `round here , yet, it seems t` me that ye`re talkin` Mic. Recording here , which , in your case means ...
INSENSITIVE Mics. , ..for ex. , the AUDIX OM-2 , a Mic. favored by ROCK Vocalists , ye can gobble it like an ice-cream , while screamin` yer lungs into it , and get a Crystal-Clear - Super-Clean sound thru` it , there are other Mics. that are like that , but it is the one I know ( got one , do n`t use it much , am a " whisperer " myself )..
It is NOT the same as " turnin` down the gain " , ..
Ya see , a Mic. as this , will hardly pick-up anything a couple a feet away , where as " turnin`down the gain " will diminish everythin`" , incl. yer own sound , on the contrary , it will keep yer sound AND diminish the others in the process ,..
As Mr.O once remarked :
" Give me a scenario "
Explain him ( and St.T28 ) yer problem in DETAIL , and you`ll be allright ..
Vic |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Yes indeed Vic, I am quite aware of many members of this groups and yours and Miles credentials, This is why I ask questions like this in here....I always get a great answer....it can be a painfull adveture to try and explain myself at times (who am I kiddin I am always a painful expalination) I only wish I lived nearer to either one of you as I would bring the whole band and have recordings made in the studio with a film crew to get it all done for loading to the web site.
Standing I have found the Q3 to be the best animal for the simple job I have right now. And personally since the Q3 has the dual condensor technology and is very comprable to the H4N in audio capture... I'd say at $219 brand new and shipped to my home this is the better choice considering I get a fairly decent video camera built in that you can load driectly into the computer and YouTube of you'd want. And like I said, the video of the band practice is good to have...perhaps as good as the audio as it is important to see what you look like while singing and playing. Take JOE COCKER for example....need I say more.
The other reason I chose this and did not really consider the choice you menetioned was because I needed something soon and I did not have the time to wait for more posts. I already bought the Zoom, and for that price I think I found a great solution to my problems and I even got a camera built in at half the price.
Thanks again for the help guy's always guys with good info in here. |
|
| |
Help with recording????