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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | I was looking through the 2009 Ovation catalog recently and saw several guitars listed as "AX" (ie Elite AX and Balladeer AX). I was expecting to see "LX". Is this a new model and if so, what's different? I'm obviously a little behind the times.
Thanks. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | AX means made in Asia. What used to be US made Elite LX and Balladeer LX are now Asian made Elite AX and Balladeer AX. Not bad guitars. |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Wow. Was this a move by Fender? Has Ovation lowered prices? Are the US LX models still available or not...I'm assuming they are no longer available if production has been moved to China or Korea.
So what is left at the Mothership?...Adamas? Legends?
I know I'm anal about some things but I won't be buying any AX models. Those of us that work for manufacturig companies understand this. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Appears to be a steady migration of Ovation product to mostly offshore manufacture. Frees up space in the US factory for more Guild production. From a business standpoint it probably makes sense. Fender has had a long history of making very profitable guitars offshore so it's hard to argue with the logic. Just because they are not made in the US any longer doesn't mean they are not still good guitars. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | The newer Ultras were good guitars... solid top, OP-Pro, for cheap.
Now there are no Ultras, but Elites and Balladeers are made in the same factory for cheap.
They just don't stop in Connecticut to get tuned any longer.
And they are not quite as cheap... But they are basically the same guitars.
When they sold the last of the USA Elites and Balladeers, they went for around $600 with a case.
So now the AX are basically solid-top Celebrity's at USA Prices.
I agree with Stellarjim...
Even though I have bought my share of import guitars, and continue to do so, (see sig line)
I will not be buying any of the AX or TX series. |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | I won't make a big stink here about Ovation's move to Asian production. I will only say that I'm very disappointed and in my mind, Elites and Balladeers have basically become Celebrity models.
I love the 3 American Ovations I own and hope to obtain more...especially an FD14 or Ute. But as someone that works for a dying breed (a US manufacturer) it's been painful to watch so many American industries desimated by Asian manufacturing and the rat race for the almighty dollar. What's the unemployment rate these days? Are we going to find work for Americans by giving everyone a job in sales?
So which domestic Ovation models are left? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by stellarjim:
So which domestic Ovation models are left? Adamas and Legend. Folklore and Artist. And VXT's, I think.
Not many.
It is pretty much like this... Unless you stumble onto some New Old Stock, you will be buying used. |
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Location: SoCal | Gretsch's entire production is overseas. Take a look at their reissue of the Chet Atkins Country Gentleman. You won't find better quality...... |
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| Asian build quality? One word - Takamine. 'nuf said.
Yeah, part of the move to overseas production was motivated by profit. But it's our (as in American consumers in general) fault. We refuse to pay the real cost of what things are worth, instead seeking out and buying the cheapest (cost-wise and quality-wise) things we can find, and then bitch about low quality and poorly made items that don't last. "They just don't make 'em like they used to." Right - and we vote with our dollars by continuing to buy the cheapest we can find instead of voting for local craftsmen who take pride in their work by paying a bit more. Blame the international conglomerates all you want - they're in business because we support them. The big box music chains sell their mediocre crap and people buy it, at the cost of closing down the mom&pop that knows you by name. |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | I'm really not questioning the quality. I've been to China 4 times now...each time to take more work over there from Ohio. China has modernized dramatically over the last decade and there are many quality shops at this point.
But if you look at the big picture, many of us have still have jobs but many of us have lost jobs too. And most of our customers have an overseas option where they can buy for less money. We've already lost many industries and many people believe the true unemployment rate among healthy adults is much higher than advertised (because of the way the data is collected). So suffice it to say I'm very disappointed in Ovation.
I was OK with the whole Celebrity and Applause line. You want an Asian made, lower priced Ovation?...here they are. But at least I had an option to buy the American made models, which is exactly what I have done and will continue to do. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | With the technology the way it is, you can get fine quality from anywhere in the world.
Since you can get equal quality from anywhere in the world...
It just comes down to where you want your money to go to.
If you are buying Ovation, or Martin, or Gibson, because it is American made...
You want it to be American Made!
As to Takamine... The top of the line is handmade in Japan, the lesser Taks are made elsewhere...
Like in Korea.
Nobody is saying that they don't make good stuff elsewhere...
Swiss Watches, Italian Racing Cars, German Chocolate...
But sometimes it is just nice to keep making something in America.
With a Lifetime Repair Warranty, as opposed to a 5-year throw-it-away and give you another one warranty. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | If people had bought more USA Balladeers, Legends and Elites instead of scouring craigs list and ebay for the latest dirt cheap used bargins maybe they would still be producing them. |
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Location: SoCal | I knew this would be my fault somehow.... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I knew this would be my fault somehow....  |
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Location: south east Michigan | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
...the latest dirt cheap used bargins... I would not underestimate the effect that ebay, amazon and creigslist has had. Who would have thunk 12 years ago that you could be part of what is basicly a world-wide garage sale.
I can't imagine what the manufacturing and retail landscape will look like 12 years from now.
We had to replace out washer & dryer last summer. I tried real hard to by American made machines. Whirpool used to make good stuff right here in Michigan. After a lot of research and shopping, we ended up with Samsung. The machines are great. I just wish they were made here. |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | For anyone who's familiar with the LX technology, none of the imports have the new CNC neck-to-body joint. They get an epoxyed mortice-and-tenon joint. This pretty much makes the imported Ovations into throwaways. USA-made O's can be worked on if a problem develops as the guitar ages. With the imports you play them until something goes wrong, then pitch it and get a new one. Isn't everything going that way? I'll bet Fender makes more money off an imported Elite than they were making from a USA model. The changes they've made cheapened the product without being noticeable to the average consumer. : ( |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | All the more reason to buy up the nice old models and send them in for refurbishing. |
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Location: Yalova/Turkey | I have to add a recent observation concerning my CSE-445 RRB. I didn´t notice this when I bought it, it was rather hard to see, only if the light falls on in a certain angle: The headstock (hope its the right term, where the tuner machines are) is not a solid piece of wood, but put together of two pieces...
Doesn´t it look rather cheap? And I guess with some piece of bad luck it could cause problems too... |
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Location: New Hampsha | This is precious!
The very same people that would consistently tell people NOT to buy that new Ovation but instead to go find and buy a used USA model are complaining because the factory is changing, moving, disappearing?!?
The "Adamas Production Line" consists of two workbenches in a corner, people!
Reap what you sowed! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | As far as Buying New goes... I bought TWO New Ovations in my Life.
The 2058T and the Sweetwater T.
Otherwise, I have a new computer, a new TV and new Tools in case I ever get a job.
And I have new sox!
But most of my other stuff is Used from Thrift Stores or evilBay.
I have never bought a New Car, or Motorcycle. Is that why Chrysler is in the pits?
After all that, a few hundred OFCer's trading used Ovations around should not close a factory.
Fendrovation moved the factory because the workers in Korea will work all day for less than one hour's USA worker wage. With 'Stimulus Money' the Federal Government would subsidize Fender building a new factory for Guild if that is what the CEO's choice was to be. That woulda created construction jobs and factory workers... The government woulda bought them a factory!
The Powers-That-Be have chosen to go with the Fast, Cheap, Disposable market model for Ovation, while keeping Guild. These folk who bought Kaman are the same folks who said that Ovations were toy guitars.
That is NOT because I buy guitars on evilBay.
The people who make those decisions probably don't even Play guitars.
Nothing Personal... It's just business. :rolleyes:
BTW-- On both of my New Ovations, I had to wait weeks for delivery because they had to make More.
So there is no shortage of people buying New Ovations.
Therefore I should hang-on to my 2058T... That will be the last New Ovation I will ever buy. |
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| Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
This is precious!
The very same people that would consistently tell people NOT to buy that new Ovation but instead to go find and buy a used USA model are complaining because the factory is changing, moving, disappearing?!?
The "Adamas Production Line" consists of two workbenches in a corner, people!
Reap what you sowed! Precious indeed, argument by false equivalence. After all, when someone comes here explicitly stating that they can only spend a maximum of $5-600 and are looking at a Celebrity, telling them that for the same money they can get a superior (used) American-made Ovation cuts into sales of new Celebrity's. After all, every new Celeb sold ensures that the the CT builders have work to do... :rolleyes: |
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Location: Utah | I've been on a kick since the 80's to buy USA made whenever possible. It is certainly very difficult to do sometimes, with parts from all over the world. Much of the electronics inside the Adamas are from Asian semiconductor factories. The petroleum products may be from the middle east. Wood parts may be from anywhere in the world. The metals are mined where these days?
But in the end, I still try to buy American as much as possible. The true cost of an item is not what gets charged to my credit card. The true cost may be higher if the money goes overseas, because that money may never come back. If I buy a guitar made in Connecticut, the workers there will spend their wages locally, supporting local grocery stores, local car dealers, and maybe even buying a ride on my airline. But if I send my money to a Korean luthier, he will build a fine product but may never spend his wages on a USA product or service.
The cost of buying an import is a lot higher than the price tag, but most people don't care that we are permanently exporting wealth in exchange for disposable items.
It's like buying an airline ticket. People vote with their wallets by buying the cheapest ticket they can find on the internet. Then they proceed to complain that they get no meals, have to pay to check a bag, and have no leg room. We are all getting what we paid for, one way or the other. |
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Location: New Hampsha | Originally posted by G8r:
Precious indeed, argument by false equivalence. After all, when someone comes here explicitly stating that they can only spend a maximum of $5-600 and are looking at a Celebrity, telling them that for the same money they can get a superior (used) American-made Ovation cuts into sales of new Celebrity's. After all, every new Celeb sold ensures that the the CT builders have work to do... :rolleyes: Keep telling yourself that. Try realizing that Ovations are Adamases and Ovations AND Celebs AND Applauses!
Diverting money from the purchase of a new Celebrity or Applause to a used Ovation diverted money from the Ovation bottom line. Less money coming in means more pressure to cut costs everywhere. Cost cutting moves factories. Cost cutting CLOSES factories.
And: Fewer people getting into entry level Ovations (That means Celebrities and Applauses for the thickheads) means fewer people are developing the kind of brand loyalty that results in "trading up" to more expensive Ovations (that means Ovations and Adamases, get it?).
So yes, the sale of a $500 Celebrity (or a $300 Applause) helps the guy in Connecticut. |
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| How silly of me. I bow to your obviously superior intellect and insight. Most certainly, buying a brand new tonally and materially inferior guitar ensures brand loyalty. Spending within one's budget on a far superior instrument will deter one from seeking out that same brand when one is ready to upgrade. What do I know, having started with used Ovations and ultimately buying 2 brand new Adamas. I stand corrected.
CLICK |
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Location: Yalova/Turkey | Hmm, I guess I will stand corrected soon enough as well. The reason is: I don´t understand why the Korean worker will not spend his money on an US-product. And I don´t understand another point either: The Western world and most of all the USA did built their huge economies on new inventions, not on protectionist trade. If you don´t come up with new inventions, others will copy the existing ones and may produce cheaper and also with better quality. No use in crying about that. No use in protectionism (which was most thru all its history fought by the official policy of the USA as far as I know). Be inventive and innovative again, and you´ll prosper again. This is also true for Germany (where I come from) and for all other European countries, so don´t think this is some kind of anti-americanism. We all got a bit too comfortable during the last 50 years or so... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Chris, the complaint is not that other companies in other countries are making guitars...
The complaint is that the Corporate Elite in OUR country is shipping our jobs overseas.
Due to Corporate Greed NOTHING is manufactured in the United States.
We don't make TV's, Radios, Computers, Coffee Makers, and very few Guitars.
This is not because we can't, this is because greedy people ship the jobs elsewhere.
As to a Korean worker buying a US Product... What product would he buy?
The USA makes NOTHING that he cannot get in Korea for cheaper.
Most, if not all, of our electronics are made in Korea or China. Also our tools.
Even our Pharmaceuticals are cheaper overseas than they are here.
The only thing that we used to make for export was Tractor-Trailers and Bulldozers...
And the Tractor-Trailer factories are leaving.
These Corporate People expect Americans to BUY all these products without Jobs to pay for them.
So, when you have an American Product that you are Proud of... Such as Ovation Guitars... You get annoyed when the JOBS are shipped overseas. And also the Quality of the Ovation nameplate is lessened by making inferior products and calling them Elite or Balladeer.
Personally, I will continue to buy Used, under-appreciated USA Ovations from evilBay and TJ! :p |
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Location: Yalova/Turkey | OK, Old Man Arthur, the trouble are companies in the hands of managers istead of former owners... cause managers having studied Business Administration and related subjects don´t care for the company, its tradition, people, products and also not for the country they belong to but just for profit, growth, cash flow and whatever they have learned. But in the end we come back to the same thing: If people don´t invent, build up their companies and lead them themselves, but sell out to managers, boards, share holders and so on, things will go the way they are going right now. But it won´t go long, because this system will have a major breakdown like it happened in 1929. I just hope their will be men like Kaman to start once again... |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Chris from Yalova:
We all got a bit too comfortable during the last 50 years or so... I think you're right on track there.
The Korean luthier would be wise to try to buy local first, if he can. Just as you'd be wise to try to buy from a local producer in Yalova. Keeping the money in your own economy is smarter than exporting it, at least if there is a significant trade deficit such as we have in the USA. Since we export so little, chances are that foreigners won't be looking at many Made in the USA products.
Educated people say that cheap imports are good for us because they improve our overall quality of life. That is fine until the foreigners have all of our dollars, while we are left with products that lose value and have a limited useful life.
We do indeed need visionary businessmen such as Charlie Kaman whose loyalty is with the long term benefit of his employees and customers, not with his quarterly stock bonus before taking the golden parachute as the company dies. We need to make products that the world wants to buy, and we need to make them here. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I sincerely appreciate the mini-MBA. But you seem to have missed one important fact. Fender did not CLOSE the ovation factory and move those jobs overseas. The factory is humming with workers building guitars. They're not the models you want? Well tough shit, get over it. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Fender did not CLOSE the ovation factory and move those jobs overseas. The factory is humming with workers building guitars. They're not the models you want? Well tough shit, get over it. BINGO! |
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Location: New Hampsha | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
I sincerely appreciate the mini-MBA. The OFC: bringing enlightenment to the masses.
As far as Adamas is concerned, that factory is just about closed. Is Ovation much of a presence in that building anymore?
Oh, BTW, this is the Ovation fan club, not the Guild fan club, so the "get over it" was a downright stupid statement: Roughly equal to: "Hey Ovation Fan Club - your favorite brand is dying, get over it." Huh???? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Your favorite brand is not dying, it's just being built in a different factory in a different part of the world. If that bothers anyone then they should boycott and stop buying Ovations. Personally I was much more upset when I found out that the VW Beetle was being built in Mexico instead of Germany. |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Your favorite brand is not dying, it's just being built in a different factory in a different part of the world. If that bothers anyone then they should boycott and stop buying Ovations. Personally I was much more upset when I found out that the VW Beetle was being built in Mexico instead of Germany. Or Toyota in Kentucky? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Personally I was much more upset when I found out that the VW Beetle was being built in Mexico instead of Germany.
Good analogy. I like the analogy of the VW Beetle and the New Beetle...
Just like the new Beetle is not the old Bug, the AX and TX Ovations are not USA Ovations.
The hype is there, but the product is totally different.
And like the VW commercials that have the little black Beetle and Tommy Chong VW Bus, the new Ovations are using the USA Ovation as marketing schtick!
Unfortunately, the Korean Ovations are just an extension of the Ultra experiment.
Since the Standard Elite and Standard Balladeer and the T series are not the same guitars, as well as not being made in the same place, those models are Dead.  Just like your VW Beetle. |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Personally I was much more upset when I found out that the VW Beetle was being built in Mexico instead of Germany.
the AX and TX Ovations are not USA Ovations.
The hype is there, but the product is totally different.... those models are Dead. Just like your VW Beetle. How are they different? I suspect that if you put a USA built Balladeer next to one built in Asia, you couldn't tell the difference. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I suspect that if you put a USA built Balladeer next to one built in Asia, you couldn't tell the difference. Perhaps I'm missing something here but are you saying there is no difference between one of my shiny bowl balladeers and an Asian built one? I've played both and they seem different to me!
I feel one was built when product was as important as profit, the other built when profit was the only goal.
As for the VW beetles, I went through a lot of air cooled VW parts in the early '70s racing formula vees, and I know from experience the mexican parts paled in comparison to the german made parts.
Seems to me, anytime a manufacturer shifts production "off shore" to save money, the quality of the product always suffers. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
How are they different? I suspect that if you put a USA built Balladeer next to one built in Asia, you couldn't tell the difference.  
That is the 1771AX and the 1771LX. Besides the color, the bridge is bolted on the AX.
This means that it is probably NOT routed into the top like the LX.
We know that the AX does not have the LX neck.
Since I have not handled an AX, I do not know it the neck is a glue-on, but I think it is.
I know that Jukebox Joe has done the Side-by-Side with T's and TX's, but since you chose Balladeer that it what I am using. Then we could talk about whether the AX list price includes a case. |
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Location: Michigan | oh boy this is starting to get good :D GWB |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Gentlemen:
Good spirited discussion. Sorry to bring up such a divisive topic amongst friends. Here's my final post on this topic and I'll try to keep it simple.
I was originally attracted to Ovations because I felt they were innovative, different, high quality, beautiful and built by my fellow Americans...a tall order. When people choose to spend their money (like I do)on domestically made products, that's called economic patriotism...and that's who I am. I'm sure I'll die that way too. Any time a country's citizens refuse to purchase their own products in mass, there's never a good ending. "Jobless recovery"?...that's an oxymoron.
The whole thing with Fender reminds me of the time AMF purchased Harley Davidson. There was no love for the product and their customers knew it. Profit was more important that the product or the love people felt for their product. We're not buying hammers here folks...we're buying guitars. A product that brings enough joy into our lives that it supports an international fan club.
It will be interesting to see if Ovation's innovative culture will continue. I was pretty impressed with the LX features, Idea MP3 preamp, the Contoured Body...very cool developments. But my experience has shown that innovation usually happens where the manufacturing is. It's tough to be innovative in an office building. We'll see and it won't take long to find out.
Dave said "tough shit, get over it" and of course he's right in that we have no choice. But that doesn't mean I have to like it (or choose it). There are still a few O's on my must have list but unfortunately, they won't be new models.
Nuff said. |
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Elite AX?