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Location: Chicago | The recent "cracks" thread prompts me to ask this question: My Old 1117 has a number of finish cracks. I treasure the Spruce top that's over 35 years old: sounds great. If I were to send it to the Mothership for a REFINISH only, would it affect the sound? Any insight will be much appreciated! |
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Location: SoCal | Carefully remove old thicker plastic coating... apply the newer thinner plastic coating... I think the sound would get better,
...but that thicker old finish is a component of the guitar's current sound. Minimal as it may seem, it might be dampening vibrations of the top that you personally might not like hearing when you get it back.
I'd still go for it. I think it would open up a little and by experimenting with different strings, you'd be able to compensate for any changes you don't like. |
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Location: Michigan | I don't know if they would recommend doing it. Sent you a PM. |
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Location: SoCal | The top would also come back a little lighter. A lot of the yellowing is in the finish used in those days. I bet you'd really love the look of it and the sound. You'd also get a new rosette that's not yellowed.
About 5 years ago, the factory refinished the top of a '68 Deluxe Balladeer shiny bowl and the difference in the appearance with dramatic. It was great looking before, but just beautiful after.... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | And just think what you'd have in another 30 years? |
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Location: Chicago | Very helpful, thanks! It is very tempting if only to be sure that I don't lose the top altogether. |
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Location: SoCal | Greg, one thing is that if they refinish the top, they will sand off the current bridge. If you have the standard walnut with the narrow slot (I'm assuming an under saddle p/u?), you could go with something different. When I had my old Legend re-bodied (now there's a word for you), I had a 1960's 5 point rosewood bridge put on it. I've always loved that bridge..... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | 1. don't do it, they will take off all the finish and the new will be, new
2. you got all these years of aging and they'll be ALL gone.
You want something that's pretty, get a new guitar.
3. You got crack problems get the cracks fixed, not have the top refinished. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I concur with Beal. I have a 27 year old wood-topped Adamas (prototype to the 1537) with numerous finish cracks and wouldn't change the top if they paid me. Its aged color is glorious. |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | When I took Gertrude to Mother because her top had been split bridge to purfling in an unfortunate accident, I asked Kim about having a new top put on her. It was most definitely not a cosmetic crazing in the surface--the original break was actually stepped. Kim recommended that I not change the top for all the reasons already mentioned, and the crack, though still visible, wasn't nearly as discernible when the wizard(s) got done with her. I remember opening the case on getting her back and saying, "Whooaaa....she looks brand new."
And it's o.k.; I'm middle-aged with my share of "facial crazing," and Gertrude is, too. ;)
--Karen |
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Location: Ontario Canada | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1:
When I took Gertrude to Mother because her top had been split bridge to purfling in an unfortunate accident, I asked Kim about having a new top put on her. It was most definitely not a cosmetic crazing in the surface--the original break was actually stepped. Kim recommended that I not change the top for all the reasons already mentioned, and the crack, though still visible, wasn't nearly as discernible when the wizard(s) got done with her. I remember opening the case on getting her back and saying, "Whooaaa....she looks brand new."
And it's o.k.; I'm middle-aged with my share of "facial crazing," and Gertrude is, too. ;)
--Karen Thanks for starting this thread dobro,
Hello Karen, I also have a crack from the bridge to the purfling on my 1615-4, the crack is not on the inside though, whenever I put a 7 watt bulb and a mirror inside there is no sign of it. It still sounds terrific, crack and all.
""And it's o.k.; I'm middle-aged with my share of "facial crazing," and Gertrude is, too. ;)
This reminds me of a little verse from my mother.
My face I don't mind it.
For I am behind it.
'Tis the people out there.
Get the scare.
Regards to one and all. MerryMerry etc.
Jim. |
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Location: Chicago | 3. You got crack problems get the cracks fixed, not have the top refinished. Sounds attractive: how does THAT work (crack repair without refinishing)? |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by dobro:
Sounds attractive: how does THAT work (crack repair without refinishing)? There's the do-it-yourself method and the send-it-in method.
The Factory (or repair shop) cleans, fills, sands and buffs the cracks. You still might see them, but the finish is now level and the crack is stabilized.
Doing it yourself... a fine-stiff-little nylon brush, some CYA from StuMac, a couple razor blades, masking tape, a few grades of fine sandpaper (StuMac sells a kit of progressively finer pads), a little buffing and polishing compound, instructions from Woody or Tony. |
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Location: Chicago | Thanks for that: I'll search the archive for the "instructions" you meantion... |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by dobro:
"instructions" Eleventh Q in the FAQ . |
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Location: Ontario Canada | Thanks 2ifbyC,
After reading Q and A for #11 in the FAQ's I was wondering if I got some of my model airplane CYA and filled the crack (I can just barely get a .009 string cutoff into it) and scraped the top carefully and meticously (sp) afterwards to make it like satin and unfinished, just like my LaPatrie classical, would I spoil the tone I have now. Has anyone ever tried this on a finished top please?
Jim |
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Location: SoCal | I must be the only one here who has no problem with sending an old Ovation back to the factory and having the top either refinished or a whole new body made. I've done it with 4 guitars, a Deluxe Balladeer (refinished the top), my 87C (new body), and '69 GC 12 string (new body), and my '78 Legend (new body).
Each and every time, the guitar that came back to me was better than the guitar I sent. Older is not necessarily better. A lot of time, it's just older..... |
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Location: SoCal | Paul, I've had tops refinished when I felt it was called for, but putting an old neck on a new guitar, is... well, a new guitar. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I must be the only one here who has no problem with sending an old Ovation back to the factory and having the top either refinished or a whole new body made.
Each and every time, the guitar that came back to me was better than the guitar I sent. Older is not necessarily better. A lot of time, it's just older..... Unless it's a GC Deluxe Balladeer of course.
I have a feeling you would drive north and shoot me if you heard I had sent the CG back to have the top replaced due to that crack. :D |
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Location: SoCal | True. I also wouldn't replace the top on my 1537. Some guitars are special. But some aren't..... |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Agreed.
The deluxe balladeer I just got back last night is an example of that. Nothing special before but a true beauty after the complete overhaul. Except for the broken neck of course. |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
...a whole new body...Older is not necessarily better... Complete new bodies for the old necks...
now I'm starting to see where you're coming from.
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by Beal:
1. don't do it, they will take off all the finish and the new will be, new
2. you got all these years of aging and they'll be ALL gone.
You want something that's pretty, get a new guitar.
3. You got crack problems get the cracks fixed, not have the top refinished. +1 with a !!!!!
A friend of mine has a Pacemaker 12 that needs to go back to have the headstock fixed, but that's another story. While I had this guitar that has been gig'd since it was new... I noticed it seemed a little louder and fuller than I remember my Pacemaker 12 being. Mine has very little use on it.
Well we did a "shoot out".. Good grief.. mine will NEVER sound like my friends guitar. It's DAY and NIGHT. The one that has been gigged most of its life sounds fantastic, mine sounds like a piece of... well I don't know what..
Ok... to be honest, mine sounds ok.... just as long as this other one isn't in the mix. The owner wanted to get the top refinished... I talked her out of it based on the comparison to what it will sound like when it's "new" again.
I want to get a new set of strings on both guitars and then will record a shoot out demo. I really need to do this as this is the most drastic demo of the old "does the top open with age" demo I can think of. The only difference in the guitars really is that one has a pre-amp in it, the other just the pickup without the pre-amp.
The difference in sound is so dramatic that's it frankly hard to believe.
Bottom line... If you have an older guitar that has opened up, sounds the way you like... don't do anything to the top |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by noah:
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
...a whole new body...Older is not necessarily better... Complete new bodies for the old necks...
now I'm starting to see where you're coming from.
As far as the crack thing goes, almost every single old (I mean more than 50 years) Martin I've seen has at least a couple of repaired cracks someplace on the guitar, and often somewhere on the top. And you know the reputation they have for their sound. And you know what kinds of prices they command. Cracks aren't necessarily bad. But cracked headstocks are. (Sorry fletcher :( ). |
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Location: SoCal | Miles, your Pacemaker 12 comparison involves a gig'd since new guitar and one with very little use on it. There is no argument about a guitar opening-up with play... (and I am just considering roundbacks here) if the wood top has already opened up, aren't we assuming what the effects would be if that top was refinished. In my eyes, replacing the wood makes it "new", but refinishing that opened-up top is an experiment where YMMV each time. Stephen had the Burst '87 Collector's from Sam. I never got to play it, but those who have, say the thing is great... and it had a refinished top. |
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Location: Ontario Canada | Thanks to everyone for the responses, I think I'll keep playing my 1615 (1979 vintage)with the crack and avoid any possible hassles with the cross border paperwork from Canada. Although I have no experience myself on this issue, I am just going with the reports I have heard from friends who have dealt with other manufacturers.
Jim. |
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Location: Michigan | Photoshop does a great job taking care of surface cracks. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "aren't we assuming what the effects would be if that top was refinished."
Exactly... why mess with it? There "could" be minimal difference, but more likely as the finish is adhered to the top, the top thickness changes, the finish thickness changes, the type (chemical makeup of the finish) is different... I just would not risk it unless there was something physical wrong with the guitar.
As you mention.. the wood opened up... to the point where the vibration and other factors caused the finish to crack. The finish isn't particularly plyable.. although it is somewhat... so a new finish will restrict the top.
And don't get me wrong... my Pacemaker sounds great... as long as the other one isn't in the room.. |
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Location: Ontario Canada | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
"aren't we assuming what the effects would be if that top was refinished."
Exactly... why mess with it? There "could" be minimal difference, but more likely as the finish is adhered to the top, the top thickness changes, the finish thickness changes, the type (chemical makeup of the finish) is different... I just would not risk it unless there was something physical wrong with the guitar.
As you mention.. the wood opened up... to the point where the vibration and other factors caused the finish to crack. The finish isn't particularly plyable.. although it is somewhat... so a new finish will restrict the top.
And don't get me wrong... my Pacemaker sounds great... as long as the other one isn't in the room.. Thank you Miles for setting my mind at ease. Mine sounds great and there isn't another one around so it is the champion of all the twelve string tone contraptions. :)
Jim. |
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Location: Germany, where delicious wine is growing (Rheinh) | Hi,
a very interesting thread!
I own two 1615-4.
One made in 1978 without any cracks in the top, only some little scratches, in very good shape.
The second one made in 1981, bought with a broken headstock and a heavy crack in it's top, from the bridge to the end in the middle of the top, very cheap.
I've repaired it's headstock and strung it with the same strings whitch are on the other one.
It sounds so great and clear, much better as the other one in good shape.
So I never get the idea to repair the top crack.
But I can't say something about the sound of the guitars before they are mine.
Bernie |
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Location: Chicago | I'm persuaded by what Beal and Miles (and others) have to say: the top of my 1117 is OK cosmetically, the cracks have NOT "gone through" the wood etc. Judging from my last session, the axe sounds GREAT. It ain't broke, I won't fix it! |
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Location: SoCal | Looks like I'm in a minority here. Interesting since every guitar I had worked on came back not only looking better but sounding better as well.... |
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Refinishing an OLD Top