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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | It's all so complicated, and I'm feeling stupid.
I've discovered over time that there are three components that make a guitar "work" for me. They all have to be right, or I end up wrestling with the instrument. They are:
* String gauge
* Pick thickness
* Action
Each of these has sub-components, eg:
String Guage:
- varies depending on type of play: lead or strumming.
Pick
- Varies depending on type of play: lead or strumming (for me, that's two different picks).
Action:
- intonation vs. resonance
However, nothing changes the fact that if these three items are correct for me, then ANY guitar feels "great," I play a lot better and the guitar itself sounds a WHOLE lot better. Yes, there ARE differences, unplugged, between the finest guitars and old pots, but when plugged in, the dizzying array of sound manipulation devices extant can make you sound any ol' way you wish!
I remember that a friend of mine listened to a recording I had made and said, "I thought you used only an acoustic guitar on this one." I replied that I had, but that it was REALLY an acoustic/electric that I had fed through my Crate amp with some distortion, sustain and a little auto-wah. It sounded VERY much like an electric.
Then, one day, I was playing a friend's guitar. Didn't bother to see what kind, I pulled out one of the picks on my keychain, and started playing. It felt every bit as sweet and comfortable to play as my Adamas 1681 that I STILL drool over! I took a look at it and it was some very, vERY low-end something-or-other. I offered my friend $100 for it, and he snorted that he'd feel guilty if he took more than $50 for it. I ended up not taking it, but DID take away a lesson, to wit: It behooves us to understand what kind of player we are...then we can minimize, or avoid entirely, costly experimentation in guitar selection... Then, in identifying what kind of player we are, we can fiddle with the three things (string gauge, pick, action) and make old pots sound great. THAT's why I'm feeling so stupid...I could have spent a LOT less money to find guitars that work for me by understanding the three elements.
Furthermore, I DO understand that as time goes on, those three elements will change for any individual who continues to try to improve, branch out, learn more musics and styles. However, if you work diligently to understand them early on, you can easily tell where they move TO, as YOU change!
Where, you might ask, did all this come from? And the answer is simple: I always heard, and have found myself parroting, things like "he could make a brick sound great." Obvious exaggeration, but rooted in a truism: a great player maximizes the sound quality of his instrument. Well, how can that be true, unless there are musical elements that allow a player to transcend really lousy instruments? And, those musical elements can only be that the player has sufficient command of the instrument that he can shape the sound so as to optimize it for the less-than-ideal conditions. I'm guessing that even a Tommy Emmanuel might quickly abandon in frustration a guitar where all three elements were uncongenial to him. Furthermore, I'm guessing that Tommy Emmanuel could make any old pot sound GREAT, simply by making it as comfortable as possible for his play.
Now, my question: I'm sure I'm missing guitar elements. Can you fill in the blanks? Intangibles are fine, if they have proven important to your play. | |
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Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | "I pulled out one of the picks on my keychain"
What the hell kind of keychain has guitar pick options? | |
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Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| I have one similar to this:
Goes everywhere I go. | |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | I just use my fingernails. They're never quite right, but I can't do anything but strum with a pick. | |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | To sell a guitar:
1 - It must look attractive, meet traditional expectations and seductive enough toget you to pick it up.
2 - Balance, solid construction, feel of the neck and surfaces.
3 - Playability, an almost instantaneous decision.
4 - Sound and Tone, funny how the most important part has to wait for last! If it doesn't pass the previous requirements it will never be heard.
From the Shopper's perspective is is not much different:
1 - Will I look good/Cool/Rockstar holding that guitar?
2 - Is it painful or difficult to play this one?
3 - Is it difficult for me to play it and sound like I know what I'm doing?
4 - Does this make me sound impressive?
Only with maturity do we start to approaching things differently:
- Am I a Brand snob?
- Am I looking for a Tool or a Trophy?
- Am I chasing something hard to find?
- Am I only interested in a Type such as Baritone, 12 string, offset soundhole, etc.
- Is the Neck size a limiting factor?
For myself I have found very nice sounding "Sears catalog" specials, ala 1962 that could be made playable and had a very nice tone.
If it has potential I can make it work to my needs (or for whoever will be playing it).
So my point is that we come in with a lot of different ideas, expectations and marketing misconceptions, then we approach from a distance and if not scared away we will eventualy get to hold the object of our attention and actually listen to its voice. We will touch and caress first gently and then more aggressively as we both explore our ability and sensitivity.
Mistakes can be made as we get drawn to the ones that were never meant for us and cause us to overlook the one that we could truly become united with. Invest in the relationship.
Another mistake would be to have those fast casual relationships with so many different partners that you never get to fully appreciate any one of them or for that matter, learn about yourself.
As most have already surmised, guitars can be a lot like a Woman.
Watch the Man with only one guitar... he probably knows how to play it! | |
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Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Correct intonation is a given. Without it, nothing will sound very good. In addition, because most USA O's and all A's are professional quality instruments, unless something is wrong mechanically or electronically, there just aren't going to be very many duds. Therefore, individual set-up isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to an experienced player. When Matt Smith performs during his workshops, he just uses whatever is handed to him, although I have heard him ask for an Adamas, any Adamas at that. The point is that any set-up on a quality instrument is probably going to be close enough to the midpoint that any experienced player will make it work.
I once thought neck size and fretboard width made a difference. Not so anymore. Same with thinner strings. I'm back to using nothing thinner than 12's on acoustics and 10s on electrics.
Nor is string height so important anymore as long as it isn't ridiculous. I prefer removal of all shims under the saddle in my O's and A's, but I only bother with this when I make the first string change, and only if there is any black plastic from the pick-up showing above the bridge. Otherwise, I just play 'em as they arrive. Most of my electrics have height adjustable bridges. The only issue with very low string height is that the neck has to be almost perfectly adjusted. Otherwise, the low stings will buzz in the upper frets. Because my necks are not always perfect, I'll compensate by keeping the strings raised a hair or two.
What is more important to me is feel, and that is why I really prefer the SSBs. For me, holding the guitar in position while standing for a one-hour set is simply a lot more critical than set-up, but then again, with quality guitars, the factory set-up is more than adequate and rarely does one go so far out of alignment as to affect playability. Of course, YMMV.
99% of my playing is done with medium picks, and a pick will last a long time for me. I can adjust the sound by the strength of my grip on the pick and muting the strings with my palm. I feel like I can better control the sound with a medium pick over a thin pick, even just strumming, which I almost never do. | |
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Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Mwoody-
I like what you said about having "so many different partners". Compared to most here on the forum, I have very few guitars (4), but I sometimes feel that is 3 too many. I think I was a better player when I was forced to make do with ONE guitar. Now I "think" I have one guitar for picking, one for strumming hard, one for alternate tunings, and one for rock and roll. How in the world did I ever cut it with one?.....I just did it. | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by G8r:
I have one similar to this:
Goes everywhere I go. | |
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Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| Why guitars are better than women:
1. You can play your Guitar any time you want.
2. Guitars don't have parents.
3. Guitars don't whine... unless you want them to.
4. You can share your Guitar with your friends.
5. Guitars don't care how many other Guitars you've played
6. Guitars don't care how many other Guitars you have.
7. Guitars don't care if you look at other Guitars.
8. Guitars don't care if you buy Guitar magazines.
9. Your Guitar doesn't care if you never listen to it.
10. Guitars don't insult you if you're a bad player.
11. Guitars don't care if you're late.
12. You don't have to take a shower before you play your Guitar.
13. If your Guitar doesn't look good you can refinish it or get new parts.
14. If you decide to part with an old Guitar, you don't have to give up half of everything you own.
Why women are better than guitars:
1. Women are more fun when the power goes out
2. A guitar won't play you back
3. A guitar won't scratch your back
4. A guitar won't drive you home if you're too drunk
5. A guitar doesn't care who plays it
6. You can't play two guitars at once
7. You can't fall in love with a guitar (well, maybe you can, but they can't love you back)
And for the ladies,
Why guitars are better than men:
1. Guitars don't work late.
2. Your Guitar stays as clean as you want it to.
3. Guitars don't get overweight, unless you like the Jumbo style.
4. Your Guitar always has time for you.
5. Guitars don't watch sports on TV.
6. Guitars never need a shave, nor do they have hair on their backs.
7. Guitars don't snore.
8. Guitars don't leave a mess in the kitchen or bathroom.
9. You can try out as many Guitars as you like before you get your own.
10. You don't have to feed your Guitar.
11. Guitars never argue, you are always right.
12. Guitars never try to show you off to their friends.
13. Guitars don't come home drunk after a night out with the other Guitars.
14. Guitars don't sneak around with other Guitars.
15. Guitars don't care what you look like or what your age is.
16. You don't have to praise a Guitar after playing it.
17. Guitars don't abandon you at gatherings for more interesting players.
18. Guitars don't try to change you once you've bought them.
19. Second-hand Guitars don't brag about previous owners.
20. Guitars never put you down, yet you can put them down whenever you wish.
21. You buy the tools your Guitar needs; it doesn't buy tools that never get used.
22. Your Guitar doesn't complain about your going out to dinner with your women friends rather than staying at home with it.
23. When your Guitar is dysfunctional you know how to get it fixed (and know that it can be fixed). | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | G8r -- if it weren't so amusing, I'd chastize you for hijacking my thread...a thread, I might add, that has already produced some very interesting and thoughtful responses (he said, patting himself on the backk -- no mean feat, I might add.).
Just to be fair to all -- Let's hear from the ladies: Why are men better than guitars? | |
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Joined:
September 2009
Posts: 61
Location: on the web | Originally posted by AlanM:
Just to be fair to all -- Let's hear from the ladies: Why are men better than guitars? Ever try to blow a guitar ? | |
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Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Alan, I can't think of a reason. :rolleyes: :p ;) | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
Alan, I can't think of a reason. :rolleyes: :p ;) Lol!
I suspect that a better summation than that of the reigning zeitgeist could not be found! | |
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December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | Time to get the Troll gun... | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by MWoody:
Time to get the Troll gun... What's the Troll gun? | |
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Joined:
August 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Why some Ovations are better than women:
LOTS more holes :p | |
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Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Sounds like this thread just took a sharp left. Not bad, less than 2 hours from debating the merits of pic type and string gauge with some very well thought out and well written paragraphs, to ... fellating guitars and violating epaulets. Well done. | |
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Joined:
August 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Alright, alright. Serious post, then, keeping to the question posed:
I agree that it starts with "which guitar looks best" and ends with the tone of the darn thing, but that with time (at least as was the case with me), tone became infinitely more imporant than looks.
I also agree that you can take your favorite guitar, see what basic feautures matter to you, and then try to find other models with only those features, even if it's a less expensive git.
However, in my experience, I wholeheartedly disagree that you can take a POS acoustic and make it sound like a great acoustic. You can make it sound like an electric, or even a half-decent acoustic. But not a great acoustic. Been there tried that, with EQ and effects ad nauseum. In the end, there's no beating the real deal.
Having said that, I have discovered my own "gotta have" (as opposed to "fun to have") components:
- textured top (for what I like to call the "Adamas Lite" sound, less projection but more expression)
- bass side soundholes (for better boom but not too much boom as with some Adamii for my particular voice)
- slimline maple neck (for my smaller hands)
Problem is, that narrows it down to one and only one line: the Elite T series
These are my proven workhorses. Any other gits in my collection would be toys, whether they cost half as much, or over four times as much. | |
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Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| Fine, back on topic (spoilsports).
Like Brad, I use medium plectra, and vary the volume by how hard I hold the pick between thumb and finger. I also play fingerstyle, so I try keep my right-hand nails in shape for that.
Looks only go so far, although I (like anyone) am attracted to the looks of a guitar first. That's not to say what I find attractive will be (nor should be) the same as someone else. But I have to say, I've picked up a lot of beautiful guitars that sounded like crap (mainly Taylors) - no bass, brassy highs, and muddied mids. On the flip side, one of the plainest Janes I've tried has been among the best - Beal's Tak Bluegrass. Monster tone from a homely little cousin.
On another thread (the one about pure speed), someone disagreed with me about the importance of artistic feeling as a factor in the ultimate sound and enjoyability of a piece. I still maintain - and this goes straight to the contention that a great guitarist can make the crappiest guitar sound good - that someone with perfect technique but no emotion will produce something mechanical with no soul. What makes a guitarist - or any musician - stand out is the ability to evoke emotion in the listener. David Gilmore once said (and I paraphrase) that he developed his style because he can't play fast. Few would argue that his playing lacks emotion. | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Thanks, Jukebox! You and MWoody reminded me of a FOURTH (potentially) key component! Neck width. I just bought (and have almost finished paying for) a WD-14, and can't wait to try it out. I'm a big fella, and have heard that I have hands like meat hooks. I DO feel constrained in doing a simple D-Chord or any other chord where the fingers are clustered close together. I play lots and lots of fast runs interspersed with chording, and I'm thinking that the wide-neck may be the best configuration for me.
So, in re-reading a bit, I have compiled the following characteristics...along with an assessment as to whether these are concrete, manipulable variables, or abstract parameters.
Concrete/Manipulable
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* String Gauge
* Pick thickness
* Action
* Neck width
* Intonation
* Sound hole location (to promote bass or treble)
Abstract/Subjective
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* Looks good
* Makes me look good (then NO guitar will work for me!)
* Makes me sound good
* Building materials (affects sound dramatically)
* Comfort playing
* Sound I'm looking for (I'm guessing we don't know that 'til we stumble across it?)
* Sound hole location (to promote bass or treble)
* Sounds good itself
Is it safe to conclude that if we get the Concrete ones correct (ie that we understand what makes us the most comnfortable playing) we have a MUCH better chance of getting the Abstract/subjective ones correct?
Further is it safe to say that the Concrete ones are the "I-FEEL-good-playing-here" ones, while the Abstract/Subjective ones are the "I-SOUND-good-playing-here" ones, and that THOSE are the ones we REALLY aspire to nail down?
I realize I'm kind of stating the obvious here, but I'm teaching my daughter to play and I want to be able to focus on more than just: "Here's a D-chord; here's an A-chord..." | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Sounds like this thread just took a sharp left. Not bad, less than 2 hours from debating the merits of pic type and string gauge with some very well thought out and well written paragraphs, to ... fellating guitars and violating epaulets. Well done. Nicely executed traffic cop duty, Gallerinski!!! | |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think I can help sum this up.
I had a Casio MG-510 for awhile.
Not the plastic synth, but a strat like guitar.
http://digg.com/u3DHJG
Because of all the things mentioned above, this was THE guitar for me. I had actually pretty much forgot about it until I ran across a video of me playing it. I "looked" so comfortable playing it, and it sounded fantastic. Let's face it... it's a strat copy like many others.. with a MIDI pickup that I never used. but well... there it is.. I remember how I could play just about anything, and the right notes would come out in spite of my efforts. I didn't realize how good it was, or how right it was for me, until I sold it... Since then I have been able to reproduce the elements that made that guitar "right" for me... but it's taken some time cause I didn't pay attention to it when I had it. It just played... I never had to think about "is the heel contoured to reach frets" or "what's the neck radius" or what type of strings, or picks etc etc... It just played.. | |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | One more thing to add...
Friends don't let Friends pay Retail! | |
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Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4082
Location: Utah | For me, a good guitar is one that just feels great to play, sounds great, and looks great. There is no need for me to own or drive a fine auto, though I can appreciate the refinements. There is no need to wear expensive clothes or jewelry. But, somehow, playing a fine instrument feels good.
In the looks department, I like a guitar that looks cared for. I would never buy a relic'd guitar even if it were cheap.
In the sounding great department, it first has to be intonated very well. Then the tone has to be nice. It is subjective, but I don't like extremes. Twangy, mid heavy, excessively bright, excessively woody are all no-go for me.
Most importantly though is the feel. I like a lower action rather than higher, and prefer lower frets rather than higher. Proper string height at the nut makes a huge difference to me, and helps intonation greatly. Inconsistent fret height bugs me, mostly because I like to get the relief low.
I spend a lot of time making minor tweaks to the setups on my guitars. Everything from nuts to bridge to frets to pickup heights to tuning machines.
When it comes to picks, I prefer a medium/thick gauge. I have my favorite for acoustics, Dunlop Ultex .73mm. For electric I vary what I use depending on the guitar or type of music. For performing and recording, the pick becomes stupidly important, but for just jamming or goofing off it makes no difference.
All of this persnickity-ness is most likely a compensation for lack of something like skill or talent. It is nice when it feels good to play an instrument and when the instrument enhances or improves upon what I contribute. | |
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Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4082
Location: Utah | Originally posted by AlanM:
Further is it safe to say that the Concrete ones are the "I-FEEL-good-playing-here" ones, while the Abstract/Subjective ones are the "I-SOUND-good-playing-here" ones, and that THOSE are the ones we REALLY aspire to nail down?
I realize I'm kind of stating the obvious here, but I'm teaching my daughter to play and I want to be able to focus on more than just: "Here's a D-chord; here's an A-chord..." OK, I'll take a stab at this. Both the concrete and abstract have everything to do with how it feels. The emotion and pleasure certainly depend on individual priorities and perceptions, but I think that we can say that a guitar which mechanically fits and sonically pleases is important, but if it is butt ugly it won't please us to own it or perform with it.
When I feel great playing, I believe that I sound better as well. And when I sound great, I feel better.
As to teaching your daughter, you left out one really important part, which is the fun of it. Besides playing the right chords, and liking the instrument's feel/sound, it should be fun. Maybe she would have fun playing a red flame T, or the same model as her favorite artist, or one made in a particular place that she likes. What makes a guitar fun? Maybe it's the one that she could afford to buy herself even though it isn't objectively a high quality instrument. | |
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Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | And MWoody sez:
Friends don't let Friends pay Retail! Amen! :cool:
Back to "I Feel good playing" this one.
I really miss the Fedex-Destroyed 1121 Artist.
That wasn't a Loud guitar by any means. But it was light, and comfortable, it had a comfortable neck, and it sounded good to me when I was playing it by myself, for myself.
Another one that I wish that I didn't sell. | |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by FlySig:
Originally posted by AlanM:
Further is it safe to say that the Concrete ones are the "I-FEEL-good-playing-here" ones, while the Abstract/Subjective ones are the "I-SOUND-good-playing-here" ones, and that THOSE are the ones we REALLY aspire to nail down?
I realize I'm kind of stating the obvious here, but I'm teaching my daughter to play and I want to be able to focus on more than just: "Here's a D-chord; here's an A-chord..." OK, I'll take a stab at this. Both the concrete and abstract have everything to do with how it feels. The emotion and pleasure certainly depend on individual priorities and perceptions, but I think that we can say that a guitar which mechanically fits and sonically pleases is important, but if it is butt ugly it won't please us to own it or perform with it.
When I feel great playing, I believe that I sound better as well. And when I sound great, I feel better.
As to teaching your daughter, you left out one really important part, which is the fun of it. Besides playing the right chords, and liking the instrument's feel/sound, it should be fun. Maybe she would have fun playing a red flame T, or the same model as her favorite artist, or one made in a particular place that she likes. What makes a guitar fun? Maybe it's the one that she could afford to buy herself even though it isn't objectively a high quality instrument.
I DO speak a lot of fun when my daughter and I play, and I DO try to teach her things that I think she will enjoy learning. As much as I teach her, I spend a lot of time listening to her in order to determine what will ignite her enjoyment.
It's a real balancing act, because I also don't want her to think that there is no effort involved. | |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1017
Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Just a quick detour:
Men are better than guitars, because
1. Gertrude has never stripped a bed, washed the wall, and then mopped the floor when one of our children was ambushed by a stomach virus in the middle of the night.
2. She has never pulled a dipstick, charged a battery, swapped tires or filled a radiator.
3. She has never brought home a quart jar full of quince blossoms, just because she thought I might find them beautiful.
4. She has never told me I looked like a million dollars when the thought hadn't even occured to me.
But...(back on topic)...she has given me my most important lesson when it comes to selecting guitars: Recognizing what feels "right." As I get older, the comfort factor is slowly beginning to encroach its' way into all the other areas of evaluation. If it feels like it's going to hurt, there's no point in its' sounding big, looking beautiful, or intonating perfectly. (That's why the Jewel resides in one of my cases--all the factors convergent in one special little guitar.) Somehow, when they are "right," you just know it--and you know they are meant for you, too.
--Karen | |
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It's all so complicated...