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| When I got home after picking up the ToneRites I slapped one on my 1687 Reissue, the one I compared via short recordings to the original 1687 I'd just received over on this thread . Since I had a fresh recording of the RI just before the ToneRite treatment, I went ahead and recorded it right after the initial 72-hr recommended exposure.
Here\'s the clip . The exact same setup was used to record the "after" song snippet. See if you can tell which is after treatment, and which is before in the clip (I'm not saying yet). |
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Location: SoCal | Before and after, in that order..... |
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Location: Tennessee | I have no idea, but I do think I liked the way the guitar sounds in the first recording better. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I agree with Bobbo.
sidebar..
G8r.. your playing is abilitys are moving forward quite nicely. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | +3... To me, the first 'cut' sounded richer with more harmonics and longer sustain.
Keep in mind that I worked around jet engines for quite a while... |
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| Listened over and over. I'm just not hearing $150 worth of difference. Good playing, BTW. |
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Location: Michigan | If # 1 was after I have to get one of these. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I really didn't hear THAT much difference. My friend Jay is here right now and he agrees with me. The first clip is a little bassier, but the second clip seems "clearer". Hard to tell over computer speakers, but I would save my $150 and do it the old fashioned way. |
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Location: Michigan | Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
I really didn't hear THAT much difference. My friend Jay is here right now and he agrees with me. The first clip is a little bassier, but the second clip seems "clearer". Hard to tell over computer speakers, but I would save my $150 and do it the old fashioned way. I don't know Alison, I think the guy in the first clip plays much better than the other guy... |
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Location: Flahdaw | #1 seems warmer, #2 seems brighter. Somewhere between the two would be about perfect. |
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Location: Atlanta, GA. | i dunno G8r... they BOTH sound like Ovations to me!!! |
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Location: NW Washington State | Originally posted by G8r:
The exact same setup was used to record the "after" song snippet. Was it recorded with a microphone (or two)? If so, a small change in the player's position or the location of the mic can make a difference.
Were the strings new for each recording session, or had they been on a while? |
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| 2 mics as described in the post where I compared the Original 1687 and the RI. The strings were the same as those used on the Original vs. RI comparison, which I put new on both guitars just prior to those recordings. I hadn't played the RI in the intervening 4 days since it had the ToneRite attached. I measured the distance to the mics prior to each recording; any change in position relative to the mics was no lesser nor greater than with the RI/original comparison recordings. I didn't touch the mixer or recorder in the days between making the RI/Original comparison recordings and this latest ToneRite Before/After recording with the RI.
I've spent 30 years in biomedical research - I'm all about eliminating variables and including as many controls as possible ;) |
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Location: Flahdaw | How about temperature, humidity, length of fingernails. Were you constipated, hungry, horny?
Did you have stress, a fever, gas, or toenail fungus? Lots of variables out there. |
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| Temp and humidity the same (I have gauges on the wall behind by guitars). Mood & physical condition - tired, as I'd spent most of the afternoon in an ER, comforting the Mrs and trying to entertain a 3 year old. Always have GAS. Fungus? We don't need no steenkin' fungus... |
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Location: Utah | New strings were installed prior to each test? I had been wondering if the device was doing something to age the strings, or vibrate off the crud, to make them sound better. But new strings installed after the vibe treatment would negate that.
I'm still a skeptic, but a lot of experienced folks have given it a good review. |
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| Originally posted by FlySig:
New strings were installed prior to each test? No. Only before the Original/RI comparison. I only played the 3 song snippets on those new strings before attaching the ToneRite. I may be caustic, but I'm nowhere near as corrosive on strings as is Temp. There was no crud on the strings after 3 min of playing. These aren't Elixers that sound like crap when you first put them on and get better (for a time) with playing. They're EJ16's. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by FlySig:
I'm still a skeptic      ... 
Rut roh... I think I see MM over yonder heading' dis way... 
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I really didn't hear THAT much difference. My friend Jay is here right now and he agrees with me. The first clip is a little bassier, but the second clip seems "clearer". Hard to tell over computer speakers, but I would save my $150 and do it the old fashioned way. I have to say they both sounded quite good...O am not sure I heard that much difference and I hooked my laptop to some great speakers...I'm sure it will work but I still think on wood guitars it will work better...I have read the science behind the Adamas guitars and I am not sold on the fact they will open up significantly...if so why go to the trouble of assigning a top vibration number to the new ones (in the event of the older originals anyway)...but on a wood guitar I think it would definitely work...I'm just not hearing it on this...but Serge, your playing is really nice! Bravo!
NOW IFFY............ 
I think you're just green with envy... |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by MusicMishka:
...I have read the science behind the Adamas guitars and I am not sold on the fact they will open up significantly...if so why go to the trouble of assigning a top vibration number to the new ones (in the event of the older originals anyway)...
Interesting discussion from a few years ago ... the fundamental frequencies of a couple of original slotheads changed significantly over 30 years according to the laser vibrometer.
Laser Vibrometer Plots
As background, there was a slothead reunion at the factory and they ran laser vibrometer plots on them (same as they did on the OFC guitars). Compared to the original fundamental frequency assigned to each guitar, there is a fairly substantial change according to the data that we got from the owners. Check it out.
Of course, remember that ElginAcres performed with his slothead #43 every night for something like 8 years. |
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| OK, everybody, thanks for playing.
Moody (as always) got it - before and after in that order.
My impressions: after treatment the guitar sounded crisper and cleaner, without the mid-range muddiness reminiscent of a Martin dread. To me it sounds a lot closer to the Original 1687 to which I did the earlier comparisons.
Things to consider:
[list]
[*]As MusicMike pointed out, I'm not sure to how much "opening up" an Adamas top might be subject.
[*]I've had this particular guitar for nearly a year now and play it every day, so that in itself may have already significantly opened up the tone (as far as that goes with an Adamas).
[*]The ToneRite literature states that you'll achieve about 80% of final tonal change with the first 72-hr treatment, and additional exposure (albeit at lower power) will be needed to further expand the change.
[*]There is a noticeable difference in tone (at least to my ears, and to some others') before and after the initial treatment. Whether or not you feel that difference is significant or desirable is a matter of personal taste.
[/list]
I have a Larrivee in "new, unplayed" condition and I'm going to try it out on that. Personally, I don't regret the money I spent on the device. As always, YMMV.
Thanks, everybody. This has been fun.
Edit - Bobbo posted that interesting tidbit while I was was writing. I retract my first point above. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Just had an interesting discussion with Iffy on this very subject...Bobbo I remember that thread and the discussions...I know that there is a difference in my '78 #119 and '78 #189: the later has been played over the it's life of thirty year s and the former has not...while both sound very nice, to my ear 189 sounds fuller and richer...so yes, Adamas guitars will change over time to some degree but I contend that wood guitars will open more so early on...
but, whatever...I just like to play mine and experience the change from my own playing... |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by G8r:
Moody (as always) got it - before and after in that order. OK, so I purchased a high freq cat ma$$ager...
I have a feeling that KC won't appreciate it much... |
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| Originally posted by MusicMishka:
I just like to play mine and experience the change from my own playing... At my age, I don't have the luxury of waiting 30 years... |
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| Originally posted by G8r:
Originally posted by MusicMishka:
I just like to play mine and experience the change from my own playing... At my age, I don't have the luxury of waiting 30 years...
good mojo goes a long way!
plus you have all of the great minds and hands at Shands to keep you fit and ready for a long time more.
Regards, and Thanks for being around G8r!
Glenn |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by G8r:
At my age, I don't have the luxury of waiting 30 years... BINGO! |
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Location: SoCal | I've got it going on my Legend right (or is that "rite") now. I think the theory is sound. What's surprising is that when you get it on the strings, the pads on it don't reach to the top, and it seems to ride on the saddle, not the bridge.... |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I think the theory is sound. Thank you Captain Obvious.
What's surprising is that when you get it on the strings, the pads on it don't reach to the top, and it seems to ride on the saddle, not the bridge.... According to the website:
The guitar model has been designed to fit safely and securely between the strings of a guitar and resting against the bridge. Unless you get it snug up against the bridge, I don't think you're gonna get the vibration you're supposed to, and hence it won't open up the way it's supposed to. Maybe you've got it positioned wrong?
I'd be curious to know if you are getting any howling harmonics from your Legend with the device running. I know that all of my hand laid fiberglass bowls, especially the shiny bowls, really react to minor disturbances in the room, like a sneeze, clapping, etc. And they really howl when the congas (or loud music) are being played ... quite unlike any other guitar hanging up in the room. If the tonerite is vibrating the strings ... well, maybe it's just a frequency thing. |
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Location: SoCal | It's interesting because the top and bowl are just vibrating softly. Stephen, Gator, is this what you experienced? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | yes for me. The vibration was almost inaudible on almost every guitar I put it on. I could play around with the position and make it hum louder but it seemed that the quieter the unit the more the top tended to vibrate. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by stephent28:
I could play around with the position and make it hum louder but it seemed that the quieter the unit the more the top tended to vibrate. Assuming the frequency remains the same (which it should), the less you hear, the more energy is 'absorbed' by the guitar. |
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Location: closely held secret | Voodoo. |
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Location: SoCal | Maybe..... |
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Location: Tennessee | I'm not real smart about these things, but ... if a guitar makes its sounds by the top vibrating ... and the voodoo machine is vibrating the top (in amounts sufficient to age the guitar years in three short days) ... wouldn't it follow that the guitar should be making some sort of tonal sounds? And if not, how can it be opening up the top to mazimize guitar like sounds? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by stephent28:
yes for me. The vibration was almost inaudible on almost every guitar I put it on. I could play around with the position and make it hum louder but it seemed that the quieter the unit the more the top tended to vibrate. I'm guessing some engineer could explain this better, but the hum is likely a harmonic or other vibration being cause by different placements..
The reason it's likely quietest when the top moves the most is that it's in perfect synch with the unit at that point.
For all those thinking about this... the whole "top opening up" was explained to me very simply once. Think of the joint where the top connects to the sides as the fold when you fold a piece of cardboard. When you first fold it, it's hard to move, but you keep bending it back'n forth, the easier it moves. Of course with cardboard, and the amount you are moving it, it will eventually break at that fold.
The guitar top is glued at that joint. Enough to hold the top, at the same time enough to flex.
Now granted to WHOLE top flexes... but you get the idea. The overall more it flexes, the easier it flexes.. More than tone, VOLUME you be the result. Anyone who has heard Cliff's Slothead, compared to most other Slothead's of the day can attest... his is a freak'n cannon. It's been his gig guitar.. He plays it, all the time... it's LOUD... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Miles,
That is an interesting observation and one that has been expressed many times over in the Collings forum. I tend to forget it since the tonal variations surprised me the most but almost everyone mentioned that the VOLUME of their respective guitars also increased during the process. |
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Location: SoCal | This is interesting.
One other observation is that a while back, somebody posted a video of a guitar manufacturer (Bill Collings?) talking to a group and he commented on how much of the early vibration affects the tone of a guitar and that different players playing their guitars in different ways will affect the tone (ie, somebody like me who plays cowboy chords will only open up certain areas of the guitar top, while somebody else who's up and down the neck, will open up other areas). Wish I could find that video again (too lazy to look) as it was interesting...... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I think that was Godin, Paul. |
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Location: SoCal | Maybe that was it Mark. I'll take a look on youtube later. Thanks. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Kind of off topic here, but does a large pickguard reduce the vibration of a guitar top to any degree? How about those weird acoustic guitars that have a pickguard above and below the soundhole? |
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Location: PDX | What if you like the way your guitar sounds? Might this device make it sound worse -- or different, so that the tone no longer pleases your ear?
_____
gh1 |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | It will definitely change the sound.....and for the most part everyone agrees it is for the positive.
If you are happy with the sound and feel a change might be for the worse (to you ears) then why chance it.
Just be happy and play on... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think I'm going to try one on my OFC II.
The guitar sounds great, but it sounds like it needs to be broken in.. cold maybe..?? whatever it is... I think it could do better.. and I don't play it enough. I just want it to sound open when I do play it... and that will take years as often as I play.
Quick Update....
I did a quick search to see what was out there.. and the reviews are pretty consistent.
- People that use it (and there are LOTS), like it. (Haven't found someone who didn't say it did as it claims).
- The only naysayers or those who just question it, treat it as voodoo etc.., haven't used one.
I think I'll try to find one. |
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Location: closely held secret | Paul... is he talking about us? |
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Location: SoCal | Nah, I'm using one right now that's a loaner. He's talking about Toby and Bobbo..... |
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Location: closely held secret | Whew.
So, how big are these things? |
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Location: SoCal | http://tonerite.com/guitar/vmchk |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Nah, I'm using one right now that's a loaner. He's talking about Toby and Bobbo..... Whoa, there, big fella ... just where did I say say nay? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | If you guys are referring to my "- The only naysayers or those who just question it, treat it as voodoo etc.., haven't used one." I was referring to the 100's of posts and reviews on the web. I've yet to run across someone who used it, and didn't think it at least did what it claimed.
There are many from people who "surmise" and "assume" what it will and won't do.. but they don't have one or haven't used one.... so their opinion doesn't count... I just gloss over those. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | OK, so I'm the loan nay-sayer. Not saying it couldn't work, just having a hard time getting past the "if it's too good to be true ..." part of it.
Hey they make "pre-washed" jeans that are already broken in. They make "glove soft" leather for your car seats. Hell they even make a pill that'll give you a woody. Guess anything is possible, |
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| When you spend your life spittin' marketing spoo you get kinda cynical... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Dave,
Just buy one and try it for 30 days.
If it doesn't work, send it back.
Hard to beat that kind of guarantee. |
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Location: SoCal | I just picked up my Legend which is at the 24 hour mark. Tone hasn't changed but it seems louder.... |
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Location: Tennessee | The placebo effect at work. |
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Location: SoCal | With enough wine in me, it works great! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Now try it on the guitar, Moody. |
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Location: south east Michigan | so.. Is it number 1 or 2??? |
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ToneRite - Before and After