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Location: Utah | Today was the third rehearsal of a new band I've started up. The last band just wasn't a good fit for me, so I quit it and couldn't find another that fit my style. So I've started up my own project and am gathering musicians.
Right now we are two guitars, one keyboard, and two good vocalists (one male, one female). I'm the non-vocalist. Drummers and bassists are being auditioned.
A good manager surrounds himself with top talent, and so it is that the other members of this band are excellent musicians. But it is killing my self-confidence to be the least accomplished musician and the least talented vocalist. I am feeling distinctly over the hill and inadequate.
Maybe this is all just imagined. My daughter tells me that I look just as relaxed and sound just as competent as the other guitarist, but it doesn't feel that way.
Do you ever feel like the pretender in the group? How do you shake this self doubt? |
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Location: Round Rock, TX | Actually you are in the best position in the band. Now you don't have to worry that the rest of the band can keep up with what you want to do.
Comparing yourself to other musicians is almost inescapable, but it's a killer. There's always gonna be somebody better - often way better. If you're basing your joy in performing on being the best around, you've got a hard road ahead.
Yes you wanna practice and work hard to be the best you can be, but do it for the joy of playing well, do it for the money, for the babes, for the free drinks - just don't do it to be better than someone else (or worse, everyone else). That way lies madness. At least it did in Amadeus.
Just do what you're doing. Play the best you can with the best musicians you can get to play with you - and thank God (or whichever bringer of good fortune you choose) for the opportunity.
Oh yeah, here's hoping you find a bassist and drummer that make you all feel inadequate (i.e. fortunate). |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Whoa... Dude... :eek: I don't know what to tell ya'...
I suck at the guitar. My guitars are totally wasted on someone with my talent level.
The only people who think that I play well are people who Don't Play!
Or people who are just trying to be polite! (Or supportive)
But can I ask you this... Do they wanna kick you outta the band yet? (I hope not)
Otherwise, play at the level that you are comfortable with. If you are playing your part correctly all will be well. Playing with better people than you will lead you to move upward in your playing. That and Practice.
[Let's see... Nope! I'm all outta cliches! :p ]
Would you rather be playing with people Less Talented than yourself?
(I know... Yes! Cuz then you would be teaching them and feeling more useful!)
But if you and your band mates are having fun and making good noises, all will be well.
-- Just another thought --
When I watch the famous guys get together... (Just saw Levon Helm and some friends last night)... Do you think these guys compare themselves to the rest of the folks on stage?
Sure they Do! But like Wilblee said, don't try to be the Best one out there. Just do the best you can do. Support the others music, and they will support you. That is why it is a Group.
[See? I wasn't all outta cliches! :D ] |
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| Originally posted by FlySig:
Do you ever feel like the pretender in the group? How do you shake this self doubt? Sure. In the early '90s, a country band that was HUGE in my area and was constantly opening for national acts needed a bass player in a hurry. Someone knew my number.
I knew zilch about country and I knew I didn't belong with these guys, but I did my homework. I drove myself to play at their level. I eliminated the self doubt by ignoring it.
Turned out to be a great experience. Only reason I left was that their schedule just wore me out. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Hey, you're the leader. The glue that holds it all together. Be proud of that role and take credit for the fact that the band wouldn't exist without YOU. |
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| Enrique Alberto Fernando Ricardo y de Acha III was a band leader. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Learn to live with it..... keep striving..... and have a ball!  |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
But can I ask you this... Do they wanna kick you outta the band yet? No, not yet. The funny thing is that I do have an occasional worry that they will realize that they don't need me. I know, it's a stupid thing to think, and it is outside of my experience to worry about failure or rejection.
The thing is, I can copy a recorded song quite well, though it does take a lot of time under the headphones to tease out the parts and then to learn them. I can write originals and come up with all the different parts from drums to bass to guitars to keys to violins. But in the middle of jam if you nod at me and tell me to take the solo, FAIL. Deer in the headlights, hitting all the wrong notes, no style, nothing but song-stopping FAIL.
Sometimes I'll have dreams where I play a long bluesy solo, and at least the way I remember it when I wake up is that it was fluid and melodic. I'll dream that I'm singing harmonies, and the way I remember it when I wake up is that I was hearing the harmonies.
But in real life, I can't hear a harmony to sing. I have to sit down and figure out the melody and chord structure, then figure out what harmonies work. The other two in the band play a new song for the first time and they're making up harmonies on the fly. I've watched my daughter do it hundreds of times, even in the middle of a live concert!
Maybe I need a shrink, or less coffee. Something. The woodshedding has already begun. I want to find a good guitar teacher to give me some direction. And I need a good vocal instructor. Plus an extra 4 days per week to fit it in. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | you'll get over it when you die. In the mean time forget it and just keep at it. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | It sounds to me like a perfect combination of spontaneity (them) and structure (you). If you are able to arrange and compose, you are a VERY important part of the band. If each band member brings their different strengths to the fore, the band will be that much better. So keep learning, but don't sweat it. |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Have you looked on-line for programs that teach the ear-training you need to hear the harmony parts without having to invest so much time in them? It really is a matter of training, of getting your ears accustomed to sorting the various parts out to figure out what's missing and then filling it in by what you sing.
I think to some measure it's inherent--my daughter was singing harmony on her own by the time she was 7; her dad could sing bluegrass bass lines, but not much more complicated than that. (Me, I live to sing harmony--melody just isn't much of a challenge.)
As for feeling musically inadequate, that's a better place to be than thinking you're more than adequate when you're really not. Is it possible you're being harder on yourself than anyone else is? Is the residue from your last experience making its' presence felt in this one? (Or maybe the fear that it might?)
All the advice and encouragement that's been posted is good--but, being a leader isn't about who's got the most notes, the best voice (or looks ;) ), the best credentials. A good leader brings the best out of everyone he's with--if you do that, how you play or sing won't be an issue.
--Karen |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1:
Is it possible you're being harder on yourself than anyone else is? Is the residue from your last experience making its' presence felt in this one? (Or maybe the fear that it might?) Could be, so maybe the shrink option is the best. ;)
The thing is that I know I didn't used to suck. I've played in some kind of band from about 5th grade until several years after college. Rock, country, blues, jazz, folk, duets (where I sang), choirs, even the lead role in a high school musical. After a twenty year break, there was the church band for the last couple of years where I felt competent though stretched many times.
The one thing I don't want to do is to retreat to being a bedroom musician. |
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Location: Vernon CT | Originally posted by FlySig:
The one thing I don't want to do is to retreat to being a bedroom musician. [/QB] Welcome to my world! :eek: |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Basement for me. |
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| Ditto the above. I've played a lot of gigs in a lot of places I never thought I'd be. But I have no fear of one day just playing in the basement, den or where ever for my own amusement. |
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Location: Flahdaw | You said that you already have 2 good vocalists, and are still auditioning for a bassist and drummer. If just one of them can sing, you'll have 3 vocalists in the band....should be fine for lead and harmonies without you singing. You're off the hook! |
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Location: Chicago | First, a joke: In the movie "Spanglish" Tea Leoni's mother says to her, "Lately, your low self-esteem is just good common sense." LOL
Seriously: The fact that you are SO aware of where you're at means (to me, at least) that you are actually an EXCELLENT band-mate (and manager)! |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | You always want to be playing with people better than yourself.
But more important, you should all enjoy each others company when you're playing. (and Manager is not a position to be under-rated either. Think Dave Clark 5!) |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Couple of random thoughts...
We all tend to be our own harshest critics. But that's ok, as long as you don't let it get in the way of getting out there. When you think about it, just about everyone who we identify as being really good at something has mastered the art of playing within his game. What I mean is that, for example, a pro golfer is obviously going to have a high skill level, but one of his greatest attributes is knowing his game and only playing the shots that he knows that he can hit. Similarly, with musicians, I think one of the greatest things you can learn is a sincere sense of yourself. What can you do? What is your "sweet spot"? Focus your attention on those areas and you will magically become a thousand times better.
Second, the single biggest gripe I have with most amateur/semi-pro bands is that they have absolutely no sense of arrangement. Everyone just slams along, and the result is what I call the "wall of sound".
In many cases, the most musical thing you can do is NOT play. For example, just because someone is the "rhythm" guitar player, it does not follow that he has to be chunking chords non stop through every song. If you can position yourself as the "arranger" for your band, you will have made a huge contribution!
Last, (but very much related to number two) another gripe I have with amateur/semi-pro bands is they don't emphasize vocals near enough. Really working out good harmony parts is critical, but so many bands just don't do that. This is another area you could contribute. One suggestion that has really worked for me in the past is to have "vocal-only" rehearsals: No instruments at all. And record all rehearsals and distribute the recordings to the members so they can really hear what's going on.
Just some passing thoughts... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I used to play on occasion (just 1 on 1 jamming no gigs) with a guy who was a pretty good player. He also had a good voice. I always felt totally inadequate. Except that he seemed to always want to come back and keep doing it. So I figgered, dispite what I might think about mySELF, I guess I can't suck THAT bad or why would this guy want to play with me! |
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Location: Tennessee | My son and I have this thing. He has just so much damn talent. And I suck.
He was over today and we did some planning, playing and arranging for a song we're doing together for a project for a different place.
Of course, he thinks he sucks and I am great. I think I suck and he is great. In the end, I bring certain things to the mix and he brings other things to the mix. When we shake them all together it just works out fine. Truth be told, neither one of us are any good but somehow the magic just happens because the only thing that we really have enough of is heart. And that is what makes music a beautiful thing. |
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Location: Michigan |
Do you ever feel like the pretender in the group? How do you shake this self doubt? Man you hit the nail on the head for me. I have been up and playing for a little less than a year after almost 15 years off...and I was not that good to beging with. I was asked to play in one of our church groups (we rotate Sundays). I immediatly felt overwhelmed and really struggled for the first few months. Even, to the point where I called our music director to quit. She was very patient with me and very encouraging. I am now just beginning to feel comfortable but that feeling that everyone else is getting it besides me usually crops up every time. Kind of reminds you of teenage angst huh? Anyway bro you are not alone. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I think I'm o.k. until I play with real musicians, then it becomes painfully obvious that I really know very little about this stuff. I compensate with better and more gear. |
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Location: GA USA | Sig, I had a great opportunity yesterday. At our church, some folks got together and organized a cruise to the Bahamas (which they are on right now). This group included the worship band coordinator/pianist, drummer, backup drummer, bassist, the other rotating two guitarists, two soundmen, backing singer... everybody except me and the main singer. Months ago I volunteered to put together a band and run it for the day. It was a great experience.
My current philosophy is that mistakes are fine because everybody in a live band will make some, and less than perfect skill is fine because that's what I had to work with. What's not fine is lack of preparation. I prepared well, and the set was very well received.
I know you're like me in that you prepare very well for a live performance. I've heard your recordings and your skill is not an issue. I hope this is a fun experience for you.
Now I have a new gig that I'm preparing for... a friend has asked me to do all the music at her wedding... on ukulele. Is that cool or what?! |
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Location: Michigan |
Now I have a new gig that I'm preparing for... a friend has asked me to do all the music at her wedding... on ukulele. Is that cool or what?! That is cool! Have someone video it for us. |
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| Maybe Brad can let you borrow his grass skirt and coconut bra. |
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Location: GA USA | That would go over great. It's outdoors. So far I'm planning on "Something" and "Ode To Joy" as instrumentals, and playing and singing a Marc Broussard song called "Hope For Me Yet".
So for the hijack. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Capt.Lovehandles, Head Counselor:
That would go over great. It's outdoors. So far I'm planning on "Something" and "Ode To Joy" as instrumentals, and playing and singing a Marc Broussard song called "Hope For Me Yet".
So for the hijack. I hope you hold the audience's attention as well as this guy did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_6kQbzwPI&feature=related |
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Location: Utah | I've been playing since, oh about 1968. And then there are those who've played three years who have talent. Myspace.com/SongsbyKatie and check out Meet Me After Midnight. All of 16 yrs old. I couldn't be prouder if she were my own daughter.
Omaha, you're right. Or, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "A man's gotta know his limitations." Last night I was up late working on an arrangement to Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" and put down a nice bluesy-jazzy lead guitar track over reworked chords. So, James Taylor fingerpicking is not my strength. I'll work on that, meanwhile emphasizing my strengths. |
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Location: closely held secret | ... for about 2:44. That seems to be the dog's limit. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by The Wabbit Formerly Known As Waskel:
for about 2:44. That seems to be the dog's limit. Naw, the dog just knew when and where to end the song! |
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Location: closely held secret | He should. I understand he's a highly thought of Nashville producer. |
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Location: Michigan | Originally posted by Capt.Lovehandles, Head Counselor:
That would go over great. It's outdoors. So far I'm planning on "Something" and "Ode To Joy" as instrumentals, and playing and singing a Marc Broussard song called "Hope For Me Yet".
So for the hijack. My neice and her husband danced to this one on their fist dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ltAGuuru7Q |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Izzy's "Rainbow" medley is the one I was going to suggest. I thought it was a bit haunting for a wedding, but Rich's relatives must have thought it worked. |
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Location: Tennessee | I heard from my daughter (who is busily tracking these things :rolleyes: ) that it is now the #1 wedding song ... by a fair margin. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by twistedlim:
this one Oh my, what a voice!!!
He died in '97 at the age of 38. Another young talent I missed while he was with us...
Thanx Richard! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | There's a decent guitar tab of it with a capo at about the 5th fret that sounds pretty good. I spent some time with it and Eva's Rainbow, but it got depressing. I seem to fix on songs done by people who die early. |
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Location: Flahdaw | That youtube has almost 4 million views! I've never seen anything that high. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It was the theme song of a movie with Sean Connery a few years ago. Probably got a ton of hits then. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
I compensate with better and more gear. Talk about over compensating!!!!
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Location: GA USA | Seriously, if they are better, just take the opportunity to enjoy how good they are, and play along.
Looking forward to hearing great things. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I always feel that way ... but if you get in with a good group who are mutually supportive, you get wings and fly. |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by FlySig:
A good manager surrounds himself with top talent, and so it is that the other members of this band are excellent musicians. But it is killing my self-confidence to be the least accomplished musician and the least talented vocalist. I am feeling distinctly over the hill and inadequate.
Do you ever feel like the pretender in the group? How do you shake this self doubt?
FlySig, the first three words of your post are the key to how you shake the self doubt. You are more than a musician.
In the very early 80s I did a stint with a group that was way out of my league. Bass, Drums, Keys, Guitar, and a multi-instrument horn player. They had interests in Funk, Jazz, Progressive Rock. Everyone in the band had degrees in music, the bass player from Berklee, and all were superb players. And then there was me. Street punk singer who can’t read a note. So why did they hire me? How is this gonna work…??? Well, pretty good, actually. Musically, these folks were light years ahead of me but I brought other things to the table. Lead vocals primarily. Fabulous musicians but nobody sang. And technical ability. Nobody had a clue about PA, lights, monitors. I could arrange that stuff. Plus, I brought a whole different attitude toward performance that my more, ummm, reserved band mates drew on to develop and expand their own stage presence. What I got in return was a chance to broaden my musical horizons a whole bunch plus the big bonus of an opportunity to play with people who could and would actually do a Zappa tune. (Camarillo Brillo). :D :D :cool:
The band only lasted about six months due to differing ambitions but we did a handful of very nice club gigs, we all had a blast, we all learned VOLUMES from each other, and we all grew immensely from the experience. And we all parted friends, by the way.
The point is, even though I sometimes felt like a tin cup in a china cabinet, I was considered a viable and valuable part of that group. And if there was ever any thought that I was inadequate, I was the only one thinking it. Maybe just like you are now?
My daughter tells me that I look just as relaxed and sound just as competent as the other guitarist, but it doesn't feel that way. Your daughter has the objective perspective. (so to speak...) :)
Listen to her, give it all you've got, and enjoy the band. Best of luck, man!
Otto
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Can't kick this feeling of (musical) inadequacy