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Location: Miami | Okay. I compared three USA Elite1778T's with two Korean (TX) models). But before I post my findings, I need help.
I currently own 3 Elite 1778T's: black, lusty red, and pewter. The pewter seems older as it has the OP-30 (whereas the black and LR have the OP-PRO). Another difference is the neck. The pewter has what appears to be a standard size neck, not the narrower neck of the black and LR. The pewter does not have a truss-rod cover. (Old Man Arthur or anyone else: does this mean it has the K-bar neck?)
It appears that the black and LR Elite T's that I have with the OP-PRO were a last upgrade they did before discontinuing my favorite O of all time. My question to everyone is: did they ever make a pewter one with non K-bar neck and the OP-PRO?
Arthur, or anyone else in the know: please let me know! Thanks. In the meantime I am looking to sell my pewter one in the hopes of finding another pewter with the thinner (non-k-bar?) neck.
Okay, ready for the US 1778T versus 1778TX shootout? It will be a quick ending, more like a fastdraw where one cowboy is standing, the other is shot dead. Here goes:
Bottom line (no surprise to anyone I'm sure): USA wins easily. However, check out the details. I compared all 3 of my American T's to a black Korean TX and a pewter Korean TX. Let me start with the black because, yes, there is a difference between the black and pewter TX's that I could not believe.
American T versus Korean TX (black): USA wins, but not by a huge margin. The TX retains the unmistakable textured tone of the T, due to the thinner textured paint of the T's. So 90% of the sound is there. Where is the missing 10%? It's either in the painted rosewood neck (versus the ebony neck and bridge of the American model), or in the X-scalloped bracing (versus the Quintad bracing of the American model). I'm going to guess it's the bracing. So again, the Korean sound is about 90% as good as the American. I wouldn't mind having a Korean backup at a gig. But for studio recording unplugged, America stands alone.
Okay, on to the Pewter TX. If you're thinking "shouldn't the results be the same?" the answer is an unexpected NO!!! To my utter shock, the pewter TX is NOT a textured guitar!!! It is a glossy. This, as anyone with both the textured and the glossy top 1778's knows, results in a night and day difference in tone. In fact, it's not really a fair fight. The Korean guitar doesn't even come close to the American textured T. And it's not because it's Korean, but because it's a gloss-top! The advertising falsely describes the pewter T as having the same wrap-around enamel texture. This is 100% FALSE! An ovation rep I spoke to confirmed that the new pewters will not be textured :( (To me that means it's just not a T). I asked him doesn't the T stand for Textured? He said no, it stands for experimental. (Don't get me started on my feelings about this). Ovation is not what it used to be. They're not only building overseas (which in and of itself should not greatly diminish the quality of the guitars) but they're not even building them the way they used to.
I'm very sad to report these findings. If any one could answer my questions about whether the American pewter with the OP-PRO and thinner neck were ever made, I would appreciate it. And if anyone wants the American pewter with the OP-30, I have one in very good condition for sale.
God bless the USA, and God help Ovation! My favorite guitar has become an endangered species :-/ |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | The Pee-U-ter is Not Textured... Well that sux!
I am guessing that your USA Pewter is textured.
And T means Textured, or at least implies it.
X means experimental or Limited one-off production.
The Flame T's were an afterthought. A good one too! But they don't sound like the textured T's
So Korean Pewter TX's are just CC54i's with different holes? I'm disappointed.
Is the bowl on the TX's pewter?
There is Nothing like the sound of a Real USA Elite T!
There are other things that sound Different, but 'Better' is too Subjective.
I just did a side-by-side between my 07C and the 2006 1778T...
(Get the tomatoes ready!)
The 07C has EJ16's on it and the T has EXP11's on it, so it ain't really apples to apples.
Even with slightly lighter EXP strings, the T sounds more 'Open' with a bit of Bass -thump-...
Now I love my 07C... But for half the price, an Elite T is a kick-ass guitar.
I am really sorry to hear about the misleading crap on the Pewter TX... Ya gonna send it back?
OH! And to answer your question... Pretty much all of the Pewter T's that I have seen in photos don't have a Truss-Rod Cover, so they might all have K-bars in there.
But! I have a later edition 1111-CG that has no TRC, but it doesn't have a K-bar.
It actually has a pretty thin neck profile, but the adjustment is in the sound hole. |
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Location: Seymour, Tennessee | "I asked him doesn't the T stand for Textured? He said no, it stands for experimental."
My 12 CL I had made for me has an X at the end of the Serial Number so I guess that means it's textured huh? HA HA HA HA |
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Location: Miami | I think they just changed their tune on the acronyms. It does make more sense for "X" to stand for experimental and "T" to mean textured. Nevertheless, as with most of the flamers, there are non-textured T's, and as we know, they don't have that beautiful lows and hi's at the same time that the textured babies have.
Anyway, Arthur, no, not even the bowl is pewter! No, I didn't keep it. Yes, I sent it back without hesitation. "I want my textured T!" (sung to the melody of "I want my MTV" from "Money for Nothing" :-)
As for comparing it to the CC54i, it's not the same. The CC54i has that weird texture that feels dusty even when it's new, and feels like it's going to rub off with time. I was really hoping it would sound like a T, but as you know it's not close. But the new pewter TX's are glossy, like every other O out there. It's better looking than the Idea, but just as bottomless. You are absolutely right about the T having more thump than guitars twice its price. It does not cease to amaze me, and I am doubly proud (but at the same time worried!) about owning 2 of what appears to be a dying breed! As far as the 1111-CG, it has the center hole, no? I'm addicted to the mere look of the bass side-only epaulets.
I played my lusty red T at an all-day gig on Friday and I got no less than 5 people (1 guy, 4 girls) come up and fall in love with my Rosalita. LOL It's funny. I don't like any other guitarist touching her but I have no problems with the girls putting their hands all over her. That guitar really is an extension of.... well, never mind.
Anyway, as I was saying, I'm rather saddened and a pretty darn paranoid that if anything should happen to my girls they will be next to impossible to replace.
Thanks all for your replies, especially OMA. Indeed: ain't nothin' like an American O. |
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Location: Utah | Joe, swapping out the preamps is super simple. You could buy one, say an OpPro Studio, from Al. Or, you could do a swap on used guitars and sell one off. The Op30 preamp has slightly different contact geometry in the connector to the can, so you have to also swap the cans. The swap takes all of 3 minutes. Pull out the preamp, loosen the screws on the side of the can about 30 turns, slide the can out, unplug the two wires in the bottom. Reverse the process to install the new can.
I do prefer the OpPro to the Op30 in terms of tone. The Studio adds an onboard compressor and harmonic excitor which do a nice job on my daughter's T. The VIP might be of interest to you, with the different images. I'm finding that the VIP is blah in some guitars but really fine in others.
I understand that the neck is an issue for you. Once you find the guitar with the correct neck, just swap preamps if it doesn't have what you want.
Honestly, I'm starting to look at Ovation preamps almost like pedals. Swap 'em around for the features that you want. Pro/Studio/VIP/iDea. They all are interchangeable. |
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Location: Miami | I've not swapped preamps before, and I wouldn't mind trying it, but my bigger issue is the neck, as this totally affects my playing style. There are three things that I cannot revert from: (1) the roundback midbowl (2) the thinner neck and (3) the textured sound.
So it appears that only the last black and lusty red 1778Ts were made with that combination (apparently not even the pewter has the thinner neck, and the flametops don't have the texture). Just for accuracy's sake, can anyone confirm that there is a flametop with the textured wrap around (I know most had the glossy tops) and if the Mick Thomson model with the "seven" on it has the thinner neck? (I'm not crazy about the flamers or the Slipknot "seven" marking - though I like the white bordering - but I may have no other options) |
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Location: Miami | Never mind on the Mick Thomson question. It's a deep contour, and I'm only interested in midbowl.
Having said that, if anyone knows of a midbowl textured small-necked Elite T other than the black and lusty red, please let me know. Thanks! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Okay Joe... And everybody else--
Lookie what I found via Ovation Tribute! (and YouTube)
It is a clip with Rick Hall espousing the benefits and features of the New TX...
I was just kinda half-paying-attention when it gets to the part at about 0:45 where he is moving and the light is reflecting off of the Glossy Top on this guitar!
Gee, this woulda been nice to know Before Joe bought his guitar!
Click here to watch Rick Hall and the TX...
So maybe that Ovation distributor dude was correct about the "experimental" part...
The TX is an experimental T... :eek: Ooops!
[Also, the New "Pewter" is more of a black-ish Wrought Iron color than a silver-ish Pewter] |
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Location: Vernon CT | It would have been nice if he played it so you could hear the tone of the gutar. |
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Location: Miami | Great find, Arthur. Yeah, sure would have been nice if they told me that before! :mad:
I did get to play it, and I played it next to the black textured TX. The glossy pewter immediately got sent back to the Mother Ship.
I don't mean to knock the glossy pewter. Acoustically it sounds much better than the iDea guitar. Visually I would even say it looks much better than the iDea's matted but not textured paint, which always feels like it's going to rub off on your fingers.
But tonally, this is no textured top. I wish everyone could play now the two TX's - the textured and the glossy - to see why I (and others) rant and rave over the textured tone.
I'll be checking out an Adamas for the first time next week and I can't wait to compare the textured tone with the carbon graphite tone. I'm told it's a different animal, but the way it's been described to me (warm with accentuated lows and bright highs and a dip in the midrange) makes it sound like it's got the same unique tone of the textured top. I'll find out soon enough! |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | -Pewter was an early thing; I've never seen a pewter LX T.
-The only reason for the "V" neck was to make room for the K-Bar. Once the LX came in the V was gone.
-If you've ever seen what's INSIDE the USA necks...all of that is absent from the import necks. You get a 1pc, lower-grade neck w/o graphite bars and, most of all, no LX neck-to-body joint. As far as I know, it's a glued-in mortice-and-tenon joint.
There is a world of difference between the imports and the USA-made Ovations. They've done a very good job of making those differences invisible to the casual observer. Almost no one knows there's a difference, so people buy the cheaper guitar.
There is an old saying: "There is nothing that a man can't make more cheaply and sell for a lower price. People who consider price only are this man's legal prey."
John<>{ |
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Location: Miami | I played with yet another black TX and noticed that the spruce top and textured paint are considerably thicker and heavier than the American T, which you can really tell by looking at the thickness of the wood in the sound openings. I suspect this is partly why you only get about 90% of the tone of the American textured T.
Then I took a good look at the sound holes of the Adamas guitars (in pictures only) and couldn't help noticing how much thinner the graphite is that the wood. If the Adamas has even more of what I like tonewise about the textured top, I would imagine that part of that would be attributed to the freer way the top gets to vibrate. (Did I mention that I'm going to check out an Adamas in person for the first time next week?)
The O rep I spoke to (named Rick, but not the guy in the video) explained how the glossy tops add layers to the wood that inevitably dampen the sound to some extent, but that without the coating the wood is vulnerable to cracking.
Then he explained how they experimented with the textured paint and how much thinner it was than the glossy top, allowing the tone to come out more than any glossy top. That solved my mystery on why exactly the textured tops alone seemed to combine boomy lows and crisp highs so uniquely.
And since the Korean TX has a noticeably thicker textured top, I have to speculate that while it makes the guitar feels more indestructible, you pay for it a bit in the tone.
The only other O I've heard with as good a low end (but not as good a high end) as the textured tops would be the 1778 and 6778 LX with the bass side only epaulets.
On the neck side, no, I've never seen what's inside a USA neck, and I don't know the technical difference between a V neck, an LX neck, or a k-bar neck. What I do know is the tangible difference of the "slimmed down rock maple" neck of the later textured Elites, including the new Korean TXs, versus every other neck out there.
Man am I glad I found OFC! Where else could I talk about this without getting blank looks? |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | The folks here know more than the O reps. : ) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Ask yourself this: WHY would Fender scrap a USA Ovation model and reintroduce it as an Asian model? There is only one answer, it costs them LESS to produce in Asia (= higher profit) and they bank on the fact that many buyers will not notice that the guitar is no longer the same as the previous USA model.
It's a double edged sword - Ovation might make more profit per guitar, but the Ovation name could go to shit because of reduced quality. In the long run people buy less of them, so even tho profit per unit is up, total revenue is down. If the cycle continues long enough, the brand just disappears altogether.
The only salvation will be if a small group of investors who happen to be guitar nuts buy the Ovation name, IP and remaining USA manufacturing capacity from Fender and run it as a small USA boutique brand. |
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Location: south east Michigan | You convinced me... I'm in.
I got dibs on Bill's old job. |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
The only salvation will be if a small group of investors who happen to be guitar nuts buy the Ovation name, IP and remaining USA manufacturing capacity from Fender and run it as a small USA boutique brand. And then build the elusive wood box Ovation? ;) |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | ...nah, the Archtop F-hole Jazz guitar...or the elusive O-Banjo! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Dave, I know you know this... (I will type it anyway)
All the AX and TX models are the same guitar, cookie-cutter-made with different paint and holes.
They all have the same 'Scalloped X' bracing.
They all have the same 'AA Spruce' tops.
They all have the same necks with rosewood fretboards. (some with black paint)
They all have the same OP-Pro Preamps.
Just drill the sound holes in different places, slap the appropriate paint on...
And don't include a Case or a Lifetime Warranty, to make the price seem low.
(But them Koreans sure will work. 60 hours a week, no overtime, no unions/pension/or stock options. They are so happy to work that they don't snivel like those lazy Americans) |
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Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by Slipkid:
You convinced me... I'm in.
I got dibs on Bill's old job. Not for me! My feet can't handle the cowboy boots. |
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Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Slipkid:
You convinced me... I'm in.
I got dibs on Bill's old job. I got dibs on the office in the tower. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
And then build the elusive wood box Ovation? ;) That would be up to the person in charge of marketing. |
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Location: south east Michigan | May I suggest Dave for that position. |
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Elite T closure! Plus USA vs Korea!