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| Still looking for the right guitar and still learning about all the models.
What effect does the Elite sound hole pattern have on the tone of the guitar ? What about the ones with only holes on the upper part, rather than both sides ? How does this compare to the standard center hole ?
For an example. If I had an LX guitar, like a 6756 LX , 12 string vs a 1758 Elite 12 string. Both spruce tops. Both deep bowls.
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Strangely enough John,
I just responded to your PM and by coincidence gave you my answer to this very question. The only detail I neglected was about bass-side-only eppis. That configuration will bump the bass response just a bit.
I'll be curious to other responses to this question as there are many Ovations out their I haven't gotten my hands on yet. (Just what I need eh? More fuel for my GAS.)  |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Epaulets look Cool and scream "Ovation!"
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| Yeah, they look cool alright !
My problem is they appear on the lower end guitars and the UPPER end guitars and not the price range/quality segment my wallet and reasoning side of my brain are trying to make me stick with. The more I learn, the more I have the " Oooo. I want one of THOSE ! " responses and the "keep it under $500 because you don't need a 12 string. " goal is taking a beating.
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Location: south east Michigan | Reminds of that old saying.... "Analysis to Paralysis" Talking about a guitar's tone is like "Dancing about Architecture" In the $500 price range you have a chance of finding a good one. But luck will have more to do with it than reasearch. I've noticed differences between indentical model numbers. You've already done 98% of the research just by deciding on an Ovation. From there, within your price range, the differences get pretty slim.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-08-27 7:53 AM
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Location: Upper Left USA | Bass sde only Epi's are the way to go.
I have a 2007 in the for sale that you couldn't be disapointed with.
I also have a Baritone adamas with Ebony filled soundholes (not for sale) that is astounding. |
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| MWoody,
I'm sure I would like it, but ... I doubt my 500 bucks would be enough to walk away with it. |
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| Slipkid,
I would expect that in the used market, I may be able to find anything from old Pacemakers to new Celebrity to standard Balladeers in new or old style and stuff in between. If they all sound the same, what would be the point in people having more than one ?
It's not Analysis Paralysis. It's that I can not play any of these guitars before I spend the cash. The more I know about each, the less likely I will get something that doesn't sound like I hope. As a for instance, on YouTube, there is a clip of a guy playing 1155 12 string and another of a guy playing a much newer Elite 1758 12 string. They don't seem to sound the same. Of course that 1758 will not be sold for $500, but those videos prompted me to ask how the different configurations effect the sound of the guitars.
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Location: SoCal | Couple of 'em sound good and a couple of 'em sound less good.
You're gonna have to just take a chance. Buy U.S.A build if you can. Better build quality. But sound, hey, you're best bet is to listen on youtube. I personally think you should spend about $4000 and have an Adamas I 12 string built for yourself.
You're thinking about this way too much. Find a USA built guitar that you can afford and buy it. I wouldn't buy something built overseas. The quality is inferior.... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It's hard to compare guitar sound from youtube recordings. There would probably be more variables in the recordings than there would be in the guitars. A bad recording can make a good guitar sound bad. I don't know where you are, but I have a similar predicament where I am. We just don't have any selection to try out. I rarely use a 12 string, so I am satisfied with the basic Balladeer 12 that I have. It was well within your price range. I was OK with my Applause 12 that I'd had for years, but a friend at Guitar Center got the Balladeer in on trade, knew I was an Ovation fan and gave me a great deal in order to get rid of it before he left for another job. I agree with what Slipkid said. If you like the sound of an Ovation 12 string, just buy the best one you can get for $500 or under. I would hope that you could find a used Balladeer or maybe even a Legend, either of which should have a solid spruce top, for $500. Elites would be tougher to find in your budget. Pacemakers are great, but it's tough to find one that doesn't have a cracked top. Celebrities are probably all plywood tops.
There happens to be a used Legend 12 string at our local GC. It's the only Ovation in the store. I didn't pay much attention to it, since it is black and has a shallow bowl, neither of which interest me. I prefer a deep bowl to accentuate the low end, because 12 strings sound pretty jangley to me and shallow bowls don't bring out the bass as much. That's me, not necessarily you.
Edited by Mark in Boise 2012-08-27 12:38 PM
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | John, with respot tot he guitar you are looking for, do you intend to play it primarily acoustically, meaning no amplification, or do you intend to play it plugged in? Is it just for your pleasure, or do you intend to perform with it? Will you be sitting in an easy chair, a stool, or standing up with a strap? For me personally, these considerations are just as relative as the tone, and the answers to these questions might provide further guidance and direction as to the size, shape, configuration, type of electronics (if any), etc. |
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Location: Miami | Excellent point, ProfessorBB. Plugged in, there's nothing wrong at all with the overseas models. It's unplugged where you'll want to go American all the way.
And +1 on the bass side only holes. Nice bass punch! :-)
Edited by Jukebox Joe 2012-08-27 3:49 PM
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| For the most part, the guitar will be unplugged. I don't perform or even play with anyone. It's just me , on a comfy stool, and a desire to get a cool sounding 12 string because I always sort of wanted one and figured there would be good deals these days.
Something that I have been trying to consider is what sound DO I want. My wife mentioned, " If your going to get something new, why get one that sounds like your other guitar ? " , which got me thinking. If it sounds like my Legend but more jangly , how much should I pay for that ? That is a recent change in the way I was thinking. Previously, it was just " 12 strings sound cool. Let's see if I can find a nice one for not a lot of money. "
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Location: Upper Left USA | The best answer is to attend one of the OFC gatherings. There is always the opportunity to play just just about everything there.
What is your locality? |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Well that narrows it a bit. You probably want a deep bowl for its superior depth of tone, and high end electronics shouldn't be a priority. If you have already have a Legend and you consider what your wife is saying, you might limit your options to an Elite style model. There is enough difference in the tone between the two styles that you should definitely hear the difference. If you really want a jangly sound, buy a J-Box pedal from Janglebox and run it between your guitar and amp. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Throw a bid in on this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ovation-2003-USA-Collectors-Edition-Acousti...
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I agree with Woody. |
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Location: sitting at my computer | I thought John was hunting a 12 stringer. ??? Neat looking '03 Collector's though. First one of those I've seen. |
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| Yeah. A 12 is what I'm after.
After all the reading and listening I think and Elite would fix the bill, or perhaps an LX model of something, but ... those options blow my budget. If I knew I would play the heck out of it, rather than end up with it on the wall most of the time, I might flex that budget. 12 strings seem to have the least play time, for the vast majority of people. I don't know if that's going to be me or not.
The problem is, this could end up my most EXPENSIVE guitar. I paid $400 for the Legend, back in 1980. ( Back of magazine price was about $725 I think ). I paid $399 for a G&L electric a few years back, and a whopping $250 ( with hard case ) for a Walden G2070 this year. ( I recommend these. ).
Edited by JohnW63 2012-08-27 8:45 PM
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Location: Tennessee | Well, for sure the G&L had to be an offshore produced guitar. So are the Waldens. So if you go USA made, you can pretty much count on it costing multiples of those.
Not to be a buzz kill, but my 12 string spends the vast majority of it's life hanging on the wall. It's there because when I need it, I need it. It's great to play, it adds a lush sound and is a fabulous voice ... but very few guitarists make a steady diet of a 12. I find it to have a very limited use.
So with that said, if I was you I'd find the cheapest decent Ovation or Takamine I could put my hands on and find out just how much I like playing the 12 and how often I'd do it. Because if it is something you're really drawn to, you're going to need to substantially increase your budget since a good 12 is usually thousands. If it's not something that consumes you, then something inexpensive will do the trick when you want it once in a while. And you can always trade up when the time comes.
IMHO, you're overthinking this. Take $200, go find a 12 and play it for a while. You'll figure out soon enough what you ought to spend and on what. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | ditto what Bobbo said........
plus depending on how you want to use the 12 .....say to flesh out a recording, you could always grab a used 6 and string it up Nashville style.
and remember that a 12 is gonna be much harder to fret and tougher on the fingers so start building up those callus on the left hand! |
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| Probably good advice. I tend to get caught up in the reviews of guitars a few steps up and covet my neighbors instrument.
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Location: Upper Left USA | What I've learned on the OFC:
Budgets are meant to be blown...
Never bring a lot of cash to a gathering... only trading stock.
The best guitar in the World is the one you happen to be playng at the moment. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | MWoody - 2012-08-28 7:24 PM The best guitar in the World is the one you happen to be playng at the moment. And it usually belongs to someone else! |
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| Add to that list, .... The guitar sounds so good because the player is good. It will never sound like that in MY house.
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Location: Jet City | John,
The solution is simple. Pick up an old O 12er for a low enough price so you can sell it if you're not enamored with the sound. Then you find your next one, try it out, and do the same if needed, until you find the one that speaks to you. If you do it right, you'll have a chance to try out a few different things. Next thing you know, you'll be answering questions for the new fish because of your experiences with various models.
That's how a lot of us did/do it. I personally have had 3 Pacemakers, 1 Glen Campbell 12 (Pacemaker with more bling), a Legend 12, and my Custom Elite (and a few other non-Os). I'll probably end up with and Adamas at some point too.
I'll tell you what.... you "paid $400 for the Legend, back in 1980". I'll give up my Pacemaker for the same $, you pay shipping, just so we can be done with this topic and you can start putting some time and effort into playing one instead of just talking about it. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I agree with Damon. That's how I did it. Except for the selling part. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My process was only 2 steps: Applause for a Balladeer. I gave some serious thought to getting one of the 12 string Utes that Al had made, but decided that was too frivolous. I do have some limits. I use a 12 string very little. Possibly the least of all my guitars and that means almost never. |
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | You should jump on Damons offer immediately! You can't be hurt if you don't bond with it and his gits are always as advertised!
As a side note on the elite vs legend style 12 stringers;
I haven't seen any data to back this up, but it seems logical that an elite style 12 "should" be stronger/rigider etc since there is wood for the full-course between saddle and neck as opposed to a center sound hole. BTW, though out of your price range, I find the 1538 an excellent 12... acoustically by far the loudest, punchiest prettiest sound I own. The 1537 is close as a 6-string...
Plugged in, all O's and A's are awesome! |
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Location: sitting at my computer | boltonb - 2012-08-29 9:13 AM ...Except for the selling part. yup, that's the tricky part.  |
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| I'm looking at those options. I'm leaning away from the Pacemaker since my preference is for a 14 fret guitar, in case I capo up. ( Here comes the sun and Hotel California like stuff ) . Getting a decent 12 string, used, so a cheap version doesn't turn me off them all together, is probably where I'm at.
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Location: south east Michigan | Looks like ya got it all figured out John.
Now let me throw a wrench into the machine.
Before you go out and buy a 12 string, take your favorite 6 string and convert it to Nashville tuning.
Before you ask, I don't really know what the hell Nashville tuning even is.
And you're gonna have to have to ask what kind of strings to use. (I know you'll enjoy that)
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I played one of Bobbo's Balladeers that was set up that way.
Very, very close to the effect of a 12 string.
Very "ringy ringy".
It's a great way to sound different without spending money on a guitar you'll use part time at best.
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Go ahead and curse me now for messing with your mind.
You just might thank me later.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-08-29 8:37 PM
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| So, now I need to research Nashville tuning AND strings. I'll be back in a month.
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Location: south east Michigan | The guitar is tuned the same standard way.
I think the standard E,A, & D strings are replaced with a lighter gauge and tuned up an octive.
Not a big deal..... I think.
Worth looking into as an option.
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Location: Upper Left USA | Throw in some NST or New Standard Tuning while you're at it! |
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Location: Upper Left USA | and here is the more precise explaination:
http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_GuitarBody2.htm
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Location: Upper Left USA | and here's an easy fix for an LX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ovation-Elite-1778T-Acoustic-Electric-6-str...
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Location: south east Michigan | Here's a little lesson on Nashville Tuning....
edit... Damn... the link's not working
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Just search in you tube ... there's a ton of stuff.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-08-31 12:52 PM
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The sound holes effect on tone