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Location: Miami | I realize that this subject may have been done to death - apologies for that in advance. But what is the verdict on Ovations made in the far east? Do they stand up favorably alongside their US-made counterparts, or are they a lesser instrument? If we put aside the sense of national outrage and dismay that many North American guitarists experienced when most of Ovation's operations upped sticks and departed for more easterly and cheap-labored climes, is it really true that the orientals are not up to producing a great Ovation, or is that all in our heads? |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | There's one just below you titled "Offshore guitars". |
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Location: Miami | mymartind35 - 2012-10-28 8:50 AM
There's one just below you titled "Offshore guitars".
There's "one" what? Whaddya mean? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Try using the search button. You will find many verdicts. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I think the overwhelming consensus was...."great, good, bad, terrible." |
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Location: Miami | Standingovation - 2012-10-28 10:33 AM
Try using the search button. You will find many verdicts.
I'm not interested in the "search button". I'm trying to have chat with anyone who has the inclination to chat back on this topic. If you don't, that's fine - just move on and leave the thread alone. |
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Location: SoCal | Sometimes the people on this board just get tired of rehashing the same material over and over and over again. The search button is a good thing. Not our problem if you can't be bothered with it...... |
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Location: Miami | immoody - 2012-10-28 10:42 AM
Sometimes the people on this board just get tired of rehashing the same material over and over and over again. The search button is a good thing. Not our problem if you can't be bothered with it......
The people on this board are under no obligation to enter threads that are old hat for them. Nor am I under any obligation to second-guess what may or may not meet with the approval of such members. This is an online chat forum, not an online database, and I am here to do precisely that - to chat about Ovation guitars with others that share my interest. If the topic turns out to be one you find tiresome, I would repeat; leave it alone and find one that better suits your level of knowledge and insight.
Edited by Timolin 2012-10-28 11:18 AM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Back to the Original Post
Timolin - 2012-10-28 6:18 AM
I realize that this subject may have been done to death - apologies for that in advance. But what is the verdict on Ovations made in the far east? Do they stand up favorably alongside their US-made counterparts, or are they a lesser instrument? If we put aside the sense of national outrage and dismay that many North American guitarists experienced when most of Ovation's operations upped sticks and departed for more easterly and cheap-labored climes, is it really true that the orientals are not up to producing a great Ovation, or is that all in our heads?
I have a Korean 1778TX. It sounds nice.
When I first got it, it sounded pretty good (still does).
But then I got a USA 1778T and compared them side-by-side.
They USA T sounds much better acoustically.
Plugged-in? They both have OP-Pro preamp and sound similar.
But like Jukebox Joe noted, the top on the TX is about twice as thick as the T.
But! The Korean T is still a nice guitar for the price I paid.
When I first started here I owned many Korean Celebrity's and Ultra's.
(As well as a Korean Balladeer and Chinese Celebrity's)
Most of them sounded pretty good. And I knew that they were Imported Asian guitars that were designed for the budget-minded consumer.
So long as you understand what you are buying you are cool.
I have an Awesome sounding Epiphone AJ220S (Advanced Jumbo Slope-shouldered Solid-Top) Woodbox...
These things can be had for $200 New. I got mine for $160 with a case and a tuna.
It sounds Great! For what it is... I'm sure that a Martin or a Gibson would blow-it-away.
But it is really nice for $160. (I put soundboard button-piezo transducers in it)
Many of the Old-timers here remember when you could get a New USA Ovation for the price of a Korean O with a lifetime warranty and a friendly voice on the other end of the phone in New Hartford, CT.
Now some corporation has bought Ovation and subcontracted manufacture to the lowest bidder.
And the guitars ain't as good. They are good guitars, sure. But not AS good as USA Ovations.
Many people's Love of Ovation started in the 70's when you could get a really nice guitar for less than $500
$500 was a lot of money. But you got a dependable guitar that was made in the USA for a good price.
Now Fender has shipped construction of ALL of it's guitars overseas because that is what corporations do.
So, No... Korean Ovations do not stand-up favorably with their USA Namesakes in a side-by-side taste-test.
But you are not gonna get a New USA Ovation for under a thousand bucks anymore, either.
Oh, but my Korean TX would stand-up just fine against a DXME $800 Martin.
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | I hate it when you go to a forum to ask a question and you get "use the search button". |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | muzza - 2012-10-28 4:25 PM
I hate it when you go to a forum to ask a question and you get "use the search button".
+1 |
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Location: SoCal | Timolin - 2012-10-28 9:17 AM
immoody - 2012-10-28 10:42 AM
Sometimes the people on this board just get tired of rehashing the same material over and over and over again. The search button is a good thing. Not our problem if you can't be bothered with it......
The people on this board are under no obligation to enter threads that are old hat for them. Nor am I under any obligation to second-guess what may or may not meet with the approval of such members. This is an online chat forum, not an online database, and I am here to do precisely that - to chat about Ovation guitars with others that share my interest. If the topic turns out to be one you find tiresome, I would repeat; leave it alone and find one that better suits your level of knowledge and insight.
Ok. Let's chat. $&*k you.....
"Edited for content by admin" |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | arthurseery - 2012-10-28 2:18 PM
But like Jukebox Joe noted, the top on the TX is about twice as thick as the T.
I wondered how thick the top is on my 2078TX-5, so I decided to measure it. Below are the descriptions for the pics I took of my measurements. 1) Total top thickness measured through the sound hole shows about 3/16" 2) I found a 3/32" thick piece of balsa. 3) I layed it next to the doubler inside the guitar which appears to be about the same thickness. It looks to me like the sound board on my 2078TX-5 is about 3/32" thick. (.0938") I searched online and the average thickness of most steel string guitar sound boards are about .090" (2.3mm), or just under 3/32", which is about the same thickness as my Korean Ovation. So, if the US 2078 is about half as thick, does this mean that it's about 3/64"? Even if it's only 1/32" thinner than the Korean, that would make it only 1/16" thick. Are the US Ovation steel string sound boards really only 3/64" (1.19mm) to 1/16" (1.59mm) thick? Dan 
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Location: Miami | Some interesting replies, guys - thanks! |
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| Isn't the F word frowned upon here? My kids aren't coming here any more!
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | arthurseery - 2012-10-28 2:18 PM
When I first started here I owned many Korean Celebrity's and Ultra's.
(As well as a Korean Balladeer and Chinese Celebrity's)
Most of them sounded pretty good. And I knew that they were Imported Asian guitars that were designed for the budget-minded consumer.
So long as you understand what you are buying you are cool.
This is probably the answer with the most meat. You can't really "compare" the USA Ovations to the Imported ones, as they are different instruments for a different market/pricepoint.
The $300-$400 import is a great $300 - $400 guitar and the $1000-whatever the upper limite is USA Made models are great guitars for their price.
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Location: Miami | Off-topic for a moment - can someone please tell me who the Moderators are, please? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Mr. Ovation
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | mileskb - 2012-10-28 8:23 PM
The $300-$400 import is a great $300 - $400 guitar and the $1000-whatever the upper limite is USA Made models are great guitars for their price.
That's about as succinct an answer as you are going to get I think. Almost every Ovation I have played, import or not, has been great bang for the buk. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | patchmcg - 2012-10-28 7:29 PM
That's about as succinct an answer as you are going to get I think. Almost every Ovation I have played, import or not, has been great bang for the buk.
+1
I've been happy with every Ovation I've bought, import or domestic.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Timolin - 2012-10-28 10:17 AM
... This is an online chat forum, not an online database, and I am here to do precisely that - to chat about Ovation guitars with others that share my interest.
If it isn't an online database then why does it have search function?
Not to be a dick, but have you TRIED the search function? Taps you into one of the most extensive data sources of ovation information available. And it's all the knowledge of those directly and intimately familiar with the product.
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Location: Miami | Standingovation - 2012-10-28 10:43 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-28 10:17 AM
... This is an online chat forum, not an online database, and I am here to do precisely that - to chat about Ovation guitars with others that share my interest.
If it isn't an online database then why does it have search function?
Not to be a dick, but have you TRIED the search function? Taps you into one of the most extensive data sources of ovation information available. And it's all the knowledge of those directly and intimately familiar with the product.
Hi! Yes, I have, but exactly what the right combination of words is to get the candy bar I really don't know! I typed in "US Ovations vs. Far Eastern Ovations", and a few variations on that, and I got "No Match Found". But that aside, and without being "funny", I do come to forums such as these essentially to chat with other guitarists about their experiences. No doubt the search function is an excellent resource (if you know the right key words to tap in!), but, generally speaking, I do prefer the interactive side of guitar forums to their more bibliographical dimension. But that's just me! |
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Try being polite and respectful. Sometimes that works even better than a search button.
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I have had pretty good luck with the OFC search buttons but on some other forums (with different software) I totally agree that sometimes even searching the "exact" needed phrase, nothing will turn up.....and then you find the needed thread and the title is the exact same thing and wording that you entered into the search engine without luck.
I also agree with some of the other posts.....etiquette is a valued commodity. |
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Location: Seattle | verdict? the topic is pretty subjective to each individual and contains way too many variables.
I like my 1778T and my 2078Tx but they are both different animals and it is like asking which child I love more. (& I am not going to be measuring top thickness any time soon)....... kinda boils down to how much money is in your pocket, access to testing them out.... (which is, in my opinion the bigger issue.) and what sounds good.,
Without distribution is one going to pick the Gibson, Martin, Taylor, or order the unseen unplayed Ovation at the $500+ price points?
I have every confidence that the Ovation product will be the better guitar at each step regardless if country of origin....but the new guitarist ,seeing say this months GC 219$ ovation special ,will be comparing it to readily available other product choices at a range of prices.
In real dollars, good quality guitars have never been cheaper.
Since the pricing of the US product is now for the well heeled customer, the CNC machines are dialed in and ready to go ---can they build one for you? |
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Location: Tennessee | RE: Original question ... no, they do not stand up favorably to U S Ovation, and yes, they are lesser instruments. The ones made in Korea are better than the ones made in China. The materials used are lesser quality, and there's a "feel" to the Asian-made guitars that fall short of the quality we were accustomed to from the New Hartford factory.
That's not to say they aren't good or don't have their place. I've purchased two offshore guitars in the last couple of years (one made in Korea and one made in China). Both were solid tops. They were both OK, and I bought them for members of my family who needed something to learn on. They are both still in action.
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Location: Miami | Waskel@Work - 2012-10-28 11:25 PM
Try being polite and respectful. Sometimes that works even better than a search button.
I apologized in advance for bringing up a topic that had probably been discussed before. I then received a rude cryptic remark, followed by a few suggestions that I "go and look it up the dictionary and stop bothering the regular members, who have better things to discuss" - that was the gist of it. I said nothing rude, even to that - I simply said if it's too boring, move along. There is a difference between 'polite' and 'obsequious', and if some people think their years of service here merit the latter, well, that's just too bad. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I tried using the Search function with these words and got plenty of good results
- import quality
- import usa
- korean quality
Here's one particularly good thread
http://ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26396&... quality&highlightmode=1#M452887
Draw your own conclusions, but there is no free lunch - ie, you won't get USA quality for Import money. If you are limited to import money than Ovation is a decent buy and certainly worth your investment. If you have USA money then obviously buy the better quality USA model. If you have USA money and think you will be just as satisfied with an import model, you will be disappointed. In the end it comes down to a financial choice, not what some douchebag on a chat forum has to say. |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | When I asked the question I got the response, "Look it up. It's been asked before. Ididn't do it out of anger. I did it because the import post was last week and there were a LOT of answers. No disrespect. |
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Location: south east Michigan | "obsequious" ...... Hey... rule #43... page 28 ... section 3 ... "The use of big words on Mondays is strickly forbidden." Also... check out rule #68 regarding "pomposity". . Bottom line.... nowadays you pretty much get what you are willing to pay for. The exception to that rule use to be USA made Ovations. But now... that ship has sailed.
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Location: Miami | Timolin, you like Ovations AND you're from Miami?! At last! We gotta hook up! Come by the Sports Grill on the Green (at the Palmetto Golf Course) on Saturday night. I'll have both my custom US T top and my Korean TX backup with me. Get to know a fellow OFC'er! You'll soon find out that we're more than just a database. We're people, and as such we have personalities. I thought Moody's response was hilarious! But I've been here long enough to know - and enjoy - our personalities.
Hope you can make it Saturday! If you like chatting about O's online, it's even better in person! |
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Location: Miami | joetunon - 2012-10-29 9:33 AM
Timolin, you like Ovations AND you're from Miami?! At last! We gotta hook up! Come by the Sports Grill on the Green (at the Palmetto Golf Course) on Saturday night. I'll have both my custom US T top and my Korean TX backup with me. Get to know a fellow OFC'er! You'll soon find out that we're more than just a database. We're people, and as such we have personalities. I thought Moody's response was hilarious! But I've been here long enough to know - and enjoy - our personalities.
Hope you can make it Saturday! If you like chatting about O's online, it's even better in person!
Hi Joe! I do like Ovations, and a few have passed through my hands, one of which, an Elite I bought in Rome in the mid-90s, I still kick myself for selling. Unfortunately, though, I am Ovationless at the moment. Hopefully, if some of these venerable (Whoops! Another 'big' word, Slipkid - guess you'll have to look that one up too!  )gents can get past my impertinence, I might soon rectify (No, Slipkid, 'rectify' has nothing to do with E.D.!) the situation. Meeting up sounds like fun, but I'm to my eyeballs in work at the moment. |
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Draw your own conclusions, but there is no free lunch - ie, you won't get USA quality for Import money.
Is it as straightforward as this? I thought the cheaper cost of the imported models had more to do with cheap labor than it did with unskilled workers. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It's basically that simple, except that the USA Ovations also got a lifetime warranty, while the imports didn't. I don't think anyone here should get into a debate about the difference, if any, between cheap labor and unskilled workers. That's a topic for some political forum. |
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Location: Tennessee | Timolin - 2012-10-29 12:28 PM -- I'm to my eyeballs in work at the moment. For someone as erudite as you, I'm surprised you used the word "work" when you really meant to say "bullshit". |
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Location: SoCal | The design is cheaper to build. The necks on the foreign built guitars can't be re-set. And they don't have the ANS neck bracing design. But that would be something talked about, now in the archives. It could be located using the "search" feature...... |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Why are you guys bein so damn nasty? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | This used to be a friendly place. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Old farts get cranky. |
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Location: Tennessee | I'm sorry. I apologize. I do get a little cranky when someone comes along and mocks one of our esteemed Members Of The Year, including mocking his intelligence and then making what I perceived as a homophobic remark and all of the other rude implications that go along with it.
I'm in the wrong place. Thank you all for a nice 10 year run. Time to turn this place over to the trolls.
Bye.
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | immoody - 2012-10-30 2:44 PM
The design is cheaper to build. The necks on the foreign built guitars can't be re-set. And they don't have the ANS neck bracing design. But that would be something talked about, now in the archives. It could be located using the "search" feature......
I was sure it couldn't be done either until a local luthier actually did it. Someone brought him a Celebrity that needed a neck reset and he came to me asking advice. I told him it couldn't be done, but he tried it anyway. He heated the glue and managed to pry it off without damaging either the bowl or the neck. Then he reset the neck and the thing now plays like a dream. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | CanterburyStrings - 2012-10-29 5:01 PM
immoody - 2012-10-30 2:44 PM
The design is cheaper to build. The necks on the foreign built guitars can't be re-set. And they don't have the ANS neck bracing design. But that would be something talked about, now in the archives. It could be located using the "search" feature......
I was sure it couldn't be done either until a local luthier actually did it. Someone brought him a Celebrity that needed a neck reset and he came to me asking advice. I told him it couldn't be done, but he tried it anyway. He heated the glue and managed to pry it off without damaging either the bowl or the neck. Then he reset the neck and the thing now plays like a dream.
I am certain that luthiery is one of those professions where the skill level varies widely. It sounds like this guy really knows his stuff. When I lived in Savannah, I only dealt with Randy Woods. Not only was he really good at his trade, but he was honest as well. |
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Location: Miami | immoody - 2012-10-29 3:44 PM
The design is cheaper to build. The necks on the foreign built guitars can't be re-set. And they don't have the ANS neck bracing design. But that would be something talked about, now in the archives. It could be located using the "search" feature......
What you mention is definitely a big deal. Some years back I contacted the guys at Ovation and asked them how difficult or easy a neck reset might be to perform on, I think it was, an Al di Meola, and they said it would be quite a simple process. If the overseas Ovation necks can't be reset, that's cause for at least mild concern.
Are all overseas Ovations equal? Is there any difference in quality between Korean and Chinese ones? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Timolin - 2012-10-29 5:40 PM
Are all overseas Ovations equal? Is there any difference in quality between Korean and Chinese ones?
I've not played a chinese model, but my korean Celebrity from the 80's still plays and sounds fine despite the fact that no one, including myself, ever took very good care of it. (I'll admit it looks a bit rough now though.) |
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Location: Indiana | patchmcg - 2012-10-29 5:32 PM
When I lived in Savannah, I only dealt with Randy Woods. Not only was he really good at his trade, but he was honest as well.
Randy is indeed one of the best, Patch. Hell of a nice guy too. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Timolin - 2012-10-29 3:28 PM
(No, Slipkid, 'rectify' has nothing to do with E.D.!)
Ah me... 48 posts in and already with the penis jokes.
Classy Timmy boy.... classy. |
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Location: Miami | Brad Durasa - 2012-10-29 6:09 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-29 3:28 PM
(No, Slipkid, 'rectify' has nothing to do with E.D.!)
Ah me... 48 posts in and already with the penis jokes.
Classy Timmy boy.... classy.
Aw c'mon, Slipkid, simmer down - just messin' with ya! |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Brad Durasa - 2012-10-30 9:09 AM
Timolin - 2012-10-29 3:28 PM
(No, Slipkid, 'rectify' has nothing to do with E.D.!)
Ah me... 48 posts in and already with the penis jokes.
Classy Timmy boy.... classy.
Isn't 'rectify' more of an anus joke? |
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Location: Miami | richard.parker - 2012-10-29 7:37 PM
Brad Durasa - 2012-10-30 9:09 AM
Timolin - 2012-10-29 3:28 PM
(No, Slipkid, 'rectify' has nothing to do with E.D.!)
Ah me... 48 posts in and already with the penis jokes.
Classy Timmy boy.... classy.
Isn't 'rectify' more of an anus joke?
I suppose it depends on how you look at it!  |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Tim, Since you are in Florida you may want to look this guy up. Yes, I did use the search function ... amazing the things you can find.
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29... |
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Location: Miami | Standingovation - 2012-10-29 9:21 PM
Tim, Since you are in Florida you may want to look this guy up. Yes, I did use the search function ... amazing the things you can find.
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29...
Why would I want to look this guy up? That's a genuine question, not a retort.
To be quite honest, I'm really beginning to think that this forum is not the best place to talk with others about Ovation guitars! |
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| ...To be quite honest, I'm really beginning to think that this forum is not the best place to talk with others about Ovation guitars!
I got a 2012 D-18 about 3 months ago and I can't believe how much I like it - we can talk about that if you want...lol
But to go back to your original question, the only Ovations I see in guitar shops are the really low end ones and I really just wouldn't be bothered buying one. IMO the older 70s / 80s models that can be bought in good condition for next to nothing are probably the better value.
Edited by Joe Rotax 2012-10-29 9:58 PM
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Location: Miami | But to go back to your original question, the only Ovations I see in guitar shops are the really low end ones and I really just wouldn't be bothered buying one. IMO the older 70s / 80s models that can be bought in good condition for next to nothing are probably the better value.
I know what you mean. In my GC they have some very uninviting models. However, it's some of the now far-eastern versions of what was once produced in the US that have caught my eye. The Elites and Legends definitely look like their old US counterparts. I'd also guess that there has been serious training of far eastern staff where necessary.
Edited by Timolin 2012-10-29 10:36 PM
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | This is a good place to talk about guitars, Ovation or otherwise. The oft asked question about US vs. Imports elicit ire because a LOT of players, and owners, on here are 100% American guitar people. If that means buying used, so be it. I will not judge them. I like their banter. Which usually goes off-topic rather quickly. I've been on this forum a while now and if you ask a question the same, 15 or so, people will answer. They are the OFC die-hards. They know virtually everything about every guitar(no joke). If you want to know something, ask. Some will give you a tough time of it, but eventually they will answer your question. To paraphrase, "Ask a stupid question... |
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Location: Vancouver, WA | I recently bought a 6868AX which was made in Korea. I am quite happy with it. Would I look into getting a used US made Ovation somewhere down the road? I might. But for now, my guitar sounds better than any other new guitar in it's price range to me. I was able to afford the 6868AX, the SS body works well for my body shape, and it is an Ovation! That is a win-win for me.
May you find the guitar that makes you happy. If it is your dream guitar...great! If it is your "dream for now" guitar...that is great too.
Dave |
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Location: Miami | mymartind35 - 2012-10-30 8:30 AM
This is a good place to talk about guitars, Ovation or otherwise. The oft asked question about US vs. Imports elicit ire because a LOT of players, and owners, on here are 100% American guitar people. If that means buying used, so be it. I will not judge them. I like their banter. Which usually goes off-topic rather quickly. I've been on this forum a while now and if you ask a question the same, 15 or so, people will answer. They are the OFC die-hards. They know virtually everything about every guitar(no joke). If you want to know something, ask. Some will give you a tough time of it, but eventually they will answer your question. To paraphrase, "Ask a stupid question...
I've no doubt these "OFC diehards" you mention are infinitely lovable and admirable if, as you suggest, we show the right spirit of patience and understanding so that they might truly shine!
I wonder, though, if an environment which is too nationalistic really is a good place to discuss guitars with any measure of objectivity. If the folks here are still cut up about the demise of Ovation USA, they're hardly likely to be full of praise for Chinese-made instruments, no matter what these may be like. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Blind nationalism?
Really?
It's just your attempt at conversation, right?
.
You asked a question about USA vs. offshore.
You got your answers. Some more from the heart, many more based in logic and fact.
Now you question the validity of this group by suggesting that our patiently delivered answers stem from some sort of national bias.
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And... I find the first sentence of your above post to be both disrespectful and condescending.
And putting a winky face after does not change that.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-10-30 2:23 PM
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Location: Miami | Brad Durasa - 2012-10-30 1:59 PM
Blind nationalism?
Really?
It's just your attempt at conversation, right?
.
You asked a question about USA vs. offshore.
You got your answers. Some more from the heart, many more based in logic and fact.
Now you question the validity of this group by suggestions that our patiently delivered answers stem from some sort of national bias.
.
.
And... I find the first sentence of your above post to be both disrespectful and condescending.
And putting a winky face after does not erase that.
"Patiently delivered answers"??? Hilarious ... I've had an F-bomb hurled at me, been told to sling my hook and go look it up and stop bothering people, and been given grudging, critical answers by people like you. And "blind" was your word, not mine.
Yes, some people have been extremely gracious and courteous on this thread. Others, however, have behaved rudely or like drama queens.
What a poor impression of this forum and of Ovation some people are giving here! If I had asked this question on AGF or The Gear Page, you know what people there would have said? They'd have said, "Go ask the folks over at OFC - they'll give you some good answers." What they don't know is that there appears to be a group of old diehards who feel they have the right to sneer at and deride questions they consider beneath them and who throw hissy fits if anyone dares object to their contemptuous attitude.
No more winky faces for you! Okay, but that's the last one! |
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Location: VA | One only need be reminded of the history of Fender.
When Fender was bought out in the mid 90's by CBS, the Free Marketeers, being interested in quantity rather than quality, did pump out a lot of, in my opinion, rubbish. But Arthur is right, if you know what you're getting and are happy with that, it's fine. But one of those dime a dozen guitars is certainly not going to have the same feel, sound and action as a meticulously paid attention to $3000.00 Strat from CA.
Edited by ddpruett 2012-10-30 3:05 PM
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm guilty.
Feeding a troll is fun until you realize what you're doing. That takes the fun right out of it.
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Patch, Muzza, OMA, and other newer members.... look at this guy.
He joined over 4 years ago. Now, all of a sudden, he's all over hell's half acre pretending to have just arrived with a rookie, button pushing question. . Guys, sometimes you have to put aside that "Manifesto" mentality and call a troll a troll. You active members have to step up when needed and protect your turf! The much maligned "old guard" used to to that job for you. Now you're on your own. Now... have the fortitude to call this creep out and kick him to the curb. . |
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Location: SoCal | Timolin, Verdict... you start...
Compare the new non-USA-made Ovations to the O's and A's (and other brands) you've acquired over the past five years.
Contrast playability, sound, materials, fit & finish, etc.
What instruments do you still have? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Timolin - 2012-10-30 11:36 AM
I wonder, though, if an environment which is too nationalistic really is a good place to discuss guitars with any measure of objectivity. If the folks here are still cut up about the demise of Ovation USA, they're hardly likely to be full of praise for Chinese-made instruments, no matter what these may be like.
Do you go over to the Harley Owners Group and expect them to reminisce fondly over the AMF days.
So Yes! People at the OFC are not pleased with the ending of USA production. (duh?)
In my personal experience, I have discussed my BC Rich and Parker guitars here.
People have posted about Fretlight guitars and the educational value of Rocksmith.
There have been many discussions about Collings and other expensive Woodboxes...
As well as workers' rights at the Blueberry guitar plant.
I have proudly displayed assorted Celebrity's that I have bought and have answered newbies questions about Celebrity's... Even though the general consensus is to Buy a USA Ovation.
I mentioned that I bought a Korean TX and play it out on the street with no ill-effects.
As I see it, you are not getting the answers that you want it and it displeases you.
Korean Ovations are Great! I recommend that you buy one today.
They are just as good-for-the-money as any Asian acoustic that you will buy, if not Better.
And it will blow-away a cardboard HPL Martin, so Buy One Now!
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR |  I already called somebody a Troll this month... I got mixed reactions... So you do it, Brad
Oh? You DID! Okay |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Let it go Tim. Take a breath, lick your wounds and let it go. |
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Location: Flahdaw | muzza - 2012-10-30 4:57 PM
Let it go Tim. Take a breath, lick your wounds and let it go.
Actually, I think he's quite happy, knowing he's accomplished exactly what he wanted to all along... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Timolin - 2012-10-30 1:35 PM
If I had asked this question on AGF or The Gear Page, you know what people there would have said?
I've SEEN that question asked on the AGF ... F-bomb would be an understatement !!!
Look Tim, with all due respect, it seems you probably already know the answer to the question you ask. And it's a question charged with high emotion. The responses you got here do not surprise me one bit. They are no diferent than the last person who asked the same question. You've been a member long enough to have seen all this so you know what I mean.
You and I got off on the wrong foot. For that I appologize. Unless of course you really ARE Iffy, Glenn or Char. In that case - shame on you, but I have to hand it to you it was a pretty brilliant play.
My suggestion (who the heck am I to offer advice, but so what ...) maybe hone in on more specific questions about the imports vs USA ovations. Avoids the emotion, yet taps into the knowledge base around here who certainly DO know the answers. Perhaps ...
1. what is the warranty on import vs usa model
2. do they use the same grade of woods
3. do imports and USA models have the same pre-amps and pickups
4. is the hyardware (tuners) the same quality and brand name
5. what is the difference in neck attachment between imports adn usa models
6. do they have the same bracing patterns, brace shapes and weight
7. are the actual bowls the same on import vs usa models
8. what exact model of case comes with each
9. how are the frets finished and leveled on imports vs usa models
10. are the frets glued in or press fit on imports vs usa models
11. how is the intomation set and bridge placement controlled on each
12. are nut materials same on import vs usa models
etc, etc, etc.
Remember - Validation for buying an import and Reason to not buy a USA are not necessarily the same thing.
Good luck.
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Brad Durasa - 2012-10-30 1:02 PM Guys, sometimes you have to put aside that "Manifesto" mentality and call a troll a troll. You active members have to step up when needed and protect your turf! While I realize this has nothing to do with this thread... I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY DISAGREE... I'm not saying one way or another, but if you think there IS a Troll, the ONLY response is NO response. PERIOD. THere is no "turf" to protect. A conversation that only involves ONE person, gets old quickly. I should know, I talk to myself all the time, and even I get bored and quit trying to prove my points to myself. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Standingovation - 2012-10-30 2:17 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-30 1:35 PM
If I had asked this question on AGF or The Gear Page, you know what people there would have said?
I've SEEN that question asked on the AGF ... F-bomb would be an understatement !!!
Look Tim, with all due respect, it seems you probably already know the answer to the question you ask. And it's a question charged with high emotion. The responses you got here do not surprise me one bit. They are no diferent than the last person who asked the same question. You've been a member long enough to have seen all this so you know what I mean.
You and I got off on the wrong foot. For that I appologize. Unless of course you really ARE Iffy, Glenn or Char. In that case - shame on you, but I have to hand it to you it was a pretty brilliant play.
My suggestion (who the heck am I to offer advice, but so what ... ) maybe hone in on more specific questions about the imports vs USA ovations. Avoids the emotion, yet taps into the knowledge base around here who certainly DO know the answers. Perhaps ...
1. what is the warranty on import vs usa model
2. do they use the same grade of woods
3. do imports and USA models have the same pre-amps and pickups
4. is the hyardware (tuners ) the same quality and brand name
5. what is the difference in neck attachment between imports adn usa models
6. do they have the same bracing patterns, brace shapes and weight
7. are the actual bowls the same on import vs usa models
8. what exact model of case comes with each
9. how are the frets finished and leveled on imports vs usa models
10. are the frets glued in or press fit on imports vs usa models
11. how is the intomation set and bridge placement controlled on each
12. are nut materials same on import vs usa models
etc, etc, etc.
Remember - Validation for buying an import and Reason to not buy a USA are not necessarily the same thing.
Good luck.
This is actually a more brilliant answer/suggestion than it will likely get credit for. I have never been able to compare Import and USA Ovations. It's like comparing a Bugatti Veyron with a Corvette... There both gonna suck if all you can only afford a $10,000 car, and suck even more if you need a off-road vehicle. If you only have enough $'s to buy the Corvette, then it really doesn't matter what you think of the Bugatti...
Same thing with import vs usa ovations. If you can't afford a USA Ovation, than NONE of the above questions really matter, and it doesn't matter what someone thinks is better, worse or otherwise.
My personal opinion is that Ovation has done a dis-service by making most of the Import models so nice. This would be a simple conversation if they were crap, but in general.. they are a great value. They are certainly better and more bang for buck than EVERYONE else's import line in the same price point.
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Standingovation - 2012-10-30 4:17 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-30 1:35 PM
If I had asked this question on AGF or The Gear Page, you know what people there would have said?
I've SEEN that question asked on the AGF ... F-bomb would be an understatement !!!
Look Tim, with all due respect, it seems you probably already know the answer to the question you ask. And it's a question charged with high emotion. The responses you got here do not surprise me one bit. They are no diferent than the last person who asked the same question. You've been a member long enough to have seen all this so you know what I mean.
You and I got off on the wrong foot. For that I appologize. Unless of course you really ARE Iffy, Glenn or Char. In that case - shame on you, but I have to hand it to you it was a pretty brilliant play.
My suggestion (who the heck am I to offer advice, but so what ... ) maybe hone in on more specific questions about the imports vs USA ovations. Avoids the emotion, yet taps into the knowledge base around here who certainly DO know the answers. Perhaps ...
1. what is the warranty on import vs usa model
2. do they use the same grade of woods
3. do imports and USA models have the same pre-amps and pickups
4. is the hyardware (tuners ) the same quality and brand name
5. what is the difference in neck attachment between imports adn usa models
6. do they have the same bracing patterns, brace shapes and weight
7. are the actual bowls the same on import vs usa models
8. what exact model of case comes with each
9. how are the frets finished and leveled on imports vs usa models
10. are the frets glued in or press fit on imports vs usa models
11. how is the intomation set and bridge placement controlled on each
12. are nut materials same on import vs usa models
etc, etc, etc.
Remember - Validation for buying an import and Reason to not buy a USA are not necessarily the same thing.
Good luck.
A standing ovation for Standing Ovation! Good response. |
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Location: NH | mileskb - 2012-10-30 6:23 PM
but if you think there IS a Troll, the ONLY response is NO response. PERIOD. THere is no "turf" to protect..
+1
Click.... |
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Location: south east Michigan | Miles, you have to know by now that someone will always take the bait.
Always.
It's just magical thinking to believe it will happen any other way.
.
A little moderating by the moderators, rather then depending on the membership, might head off something like this.
These guys are not that hard to spot.
And with the information resources at your fingertips, you can see things we can't.
Isn't obvious that Timmy's ID was dormant for a long time?
Isn't it curious that Timmy started posting right after that John guy got booted?
.
It's obvious that just because you put up a gate at the entrance means that all is well in the backyard.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-10-30 6:59 PM
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Location: NJ | and I'm a back door man |
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Location: closely held secret |
The men don't know, but the little girls understand. |
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Location: Miami | More signs:
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the thread entitled "Off Shore Guitars" was literally 2 threads before this one. You may not have noticed it before it scrolled off the page, but there's no way he could have missed it!
Then, he passes on an invitation to meet a fellow OFC'er in his own town with a domestic and foreign Ovation for him to check out in person and he can't, cuz he has "work up to his eyeballs"?
I'm sorry but I'm calling his bluff. "Timolin", come on by, wings are on me (and they're good!) and I'll let everyone know you're for real. |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | alpep - 2012-10-31 12:00 PM
and I'm a back door man
Must ... resist ... funny crack. Gaaaah! Failed again! |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | The second post was from me telling him about the Off shore guitars. I was at least trying to accommodate. I've been throught the mill couple of times. I won't ask a stupid question again. |
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Location: Denver, CO | May I chime in here? My first acoustic was a 1980-something Yamaha FG335. I loved that guitar, and in my opinion it sounded every bit as good as my later Tak, as well as the handmade luthier guitar I just traded for the Balladeer. Now, I am a newb here, just acquired my very first Ovation, and I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread, just the last 20 or so posts, so I don't know everything that has been said, but...
I've always liked Ovation products, even though the only ones i had ever handled were the imports, and they, imho, absolutely blow away anything else in their price range, especially in the electronics department. I never bought one, though, because none of them felt/looked/sounded better than any of the guitars I already owned.
To be honest, when Dave offered to trade me this Balladeer, even though it has a sound and feel FAR superior to any import O I've ever handled, it took me a couple of days to warm up to the idea. Now that I've had it out a couple of times, messed around with mics and eq, I am very, very happy with the trade. I can fairly, and I hope objectively, say that this is a significantly higher quality instrument than any other O product I have any experience with, as far as tone, projection, fit, finish...you name it, this guitar shines in every way, and I understand better now why you guys are so in love with them.
I kind of see the USA Ovation situation like this: Guy rides his Star, or his Honda Shadow, or his Vulcan up to the Harley dealership, gets off, goes in, test rides a new Heritage, or a DWG...comes back out and suddenly HATES the Jap bike. Why? The H scooter is JUST THAT MUCH BETTER! That's kind of how my opinion is developing concerning the (at least the one I have) US-made vs import Os. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Hey dwg preacher,
what part of Denver are you located in? Do you play out?
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 10:25 AM
To be honest, when Dave offered to trade me this Balladeer, even though it has a sound and feel FAR superior to any import O I've ever handled, it took me a couple of days to warm up to the idea. Now that I've had it out a couple of times, messed around with mics and eq, I am very, very happy with the trade. I can fairly, and I hope objectively, say that this is a significantly higher quality instrument than any other O product I have any experience with, as far as tone, projection, fit, finish...you name it, this guitar shines in every way, and I understand better now why you guys are so in love with them.
Hi John. Glad you found this place. Tons of highly valuable knowledge here. I couldn't be more pleased you are happy with the trade. I am as well, but won't rest until I have another Ovation... this time it will be a USA Elite. I have had your guitar to 2 luthiers since you left to address some concerns I had and was assured all is well. This guitar is far more suited to the music I am learning and have always liked playing. Also, I'm quite pleased you put a clear pickguard on it. I had nightmares of it ending up looking like Willy's guitar with your strumming technique! LOL. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | So, dwg preacher, you're in Denver, love Ovations, probably would like to try out a few more, maybe even some relatively high end models, and you might even be a Harley guy. Sure sounds like somebody else I know. Send me a PM. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Hey, Stephen! I live in Littleton, work downtown. Playing out...well, it's been a few months since my last bar gig. I was in Rebel Echo, and then Tequila Creek, then started doing my own solo thing. I lead worship at Set Free church in Villa Park, I lead a Tuesday night worship at His Hands on S. Broadway, and I am talking about taking up another Sunday evening worship. I've done the 16th street mall thing, the Walnut Room, Andrew's on Lincoln, the Buffalo Rose, and a few other places, and I've worked with Jude Del Hierro a few times. You can see me at www.destinedtokneel.com. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Dave, now I have such a pretty instrument, I may be inspired to improve my technique! ;-) |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Cool, I am right off of Wadsworth and C470. Like Brad said.... between his music store type collection/selection and my more modest Adamas guitars, you could get a pretty good overview of what Ovation has to offer.
or you could just ignore me and spend all day at Brads since he has everything most could want.
You should come out to DUKES this Friday night if you are free and catch the band I play in. We play from 8-12 and Duke's is a really fun sports tavern in Aurora off of Galena street (cross Mississippi and S Havana). |
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Location: Denver, CO | Ha ha! Thanks Stephen. I might try to make it out there Friday night. I think I've sang karaoke at Dukes before :-) Ever met a guy out there named Steve Ryals? Big dude, 6-2, 250, long brown hair? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Possible.....but most nights we play at Dukes there are a bunch of people who fit that description!
Cool if you can make it.....should be a good time cause Dukes is a really fun place.
and if you do, make sure you come up and introduce yourself.....I will be the bass player. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Don't let Stephen fool you. Brad's band room is spectacular, but Stephen has a secret stash somewhere from which he can seemingly produce amazing guitars for you to try out. At least that's what it seemed like to me when I was there and fell in love with the #47RI.
Great guys. Look both of them up. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Ok so let me get this straight...I'm coming to see an Adamas man play bass... |
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Location: Flahdaw | Bring LOTS of one dollar bills... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | LOL....yes, that is true....jack of all trades and master of none....and I also own the only known Adamas bass which was a prototype that I acquire a few years ago from a certain Mr. KK.....so there is some of the connection between bass playing and Adamas loving. As a matter of fact, the only Ovation non-Adamas I own is a '84 collectors that I have tuned Nashville style. Over the years I have sold off all of my wood top Ovations and I have owned at one time or another probably most of the models that they produced.
Edited by stephent28 2012-10-31 1:25 PM
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Location: Miami | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 10:25 AM
I kind of see the USA Ovation situation like this: Guy rides his Star, or his Honda Shadow, or his Vulcan up to the Harley dealership, gets off, goes in, test rides a new Heritage, or a DWG...comes back out and suddenly HATES the Jap bike. Why? The H scooter is JUST THAT MUCH BETTER! That's kind of how my opinion is developing concerning the (at least the one I have) US-made vs import Os.
Do you think any of that reaction is psychological? I don't ride motorbikes, but I imagine that for those who do, the mystique surrounding Harleys would favorably dispose the rider before he'd even switched the engine on. Having played some Martins, I can't help but feel that some of their guitars sound a bit better for having CF Martin on the headstock. It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Timolin - 2012-10-31 12:53 PM It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one.
let us know how that works out for you. |
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Location: Miami | stephent28 - 2012-10-31 2:03 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-31 12:53 PM It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one. let us know how that works out for you.
I said it "would", not it "will". In fact, even when Ovation USA was still producing standard models, they didn't seem to make their way into mainstream US stores. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Or try a blindfold Harley vs Honda drive test. |
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Location: Miami | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-31 2:10 PM
Or try a blindfold Harley vs Honda drive test.
Nah, not worth the risk for a Chinese Harley! |
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Location: Denver, CO | I'd pay for tickets to that one but I wouldn't volunteer! Incidentally, since we don't all know these things, how long has it been since Ovation produced "standard" model in the US? Does mine count, or as a re-issue does that disqualify it? |
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| Steve, I want to see that Adamas bass sometime. I think KK showed it to me, but I could be wrong. V. cool! Best wishes. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | You missed it Chazmo....... at the first LTG (3 years ago?) I had it there and it got passed around at the lobby jam. One of the well known guild members (who name escapes me) came up to the table and put down a full bottle of Jack Daniels and said "can I join you guys!.....to which we quickly rearranged the area to accommodate his bottle ( I mean him  ) he proceeded to bogart my Adamas bass for the rest of the evening......leaving me to pour the drinks and sing harmonies!
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one.
BTW-- Both Jukebox Joe and I have posted side-by-side comparisons of Elite T's and TX's.
A while back I did a side-by-side of a 6778LX and a Celebrity CSE44.
(I think that the CSE's were made in the same Korean factory as the Ultras and now the TX/AX)
The 6778LX and the CSE44 have almost the same specs, except the Celebrity has more Bling.
In a pic that I posted, the CSE44 and the 6778LX looked alike, except the CSE has mother-of-toilet-seat triangular fret markers.
I also had a CSE24 side-by-side with a 1771LX Balladeer... Same thing, the CSE had more Bling.
But you can definitely tell the difference in the sound. (and I found the pic)
Nobody has said that Asian Ovations suck (at least not all of them) but their is a difference in quality.
If you search back to 2008 I was commenting that eBay was selling factory-reject TX and AX guitars before those models were even available at GC or MF.
Here is one obvious difference between USA and Asia manufacture...
If the New Hartford factory found a flaw, they would repair it and sell the guitar as a FRG.
If the Asian factory finds a flaw, they Don't Repair it and sell it anyway... by the container-load.
Hence, all of those "refurbished" Asian Ovations that are on evilBay.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2012-10-31 2:51 PM
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Location: Denver, CO | Timolin - 2012-10-31 12:53 PM
Do you think any of that reaction is psychological? I don't ride motorbikes, but I imagine that for those who do, the mystique surrounding Harleys would favorably dispose the rider before he'd even switched the engine on.
Speaking only for myself, I can say unequivocably no. I try in all circumstances to avoid reaching any emotional attachment to a brand. In all situations, I try to evaluate products, be they cars, guitars, or blenders, on their merits. As a not-so-great musician, still I try very hard to make sure my instrument compliments me as much as possible, and even as a not-so-great musician, I believe my ears and hands can generally discern true quality.
I have found this same concept is (almost) invariably true with other American manufacturers who also build instruments overseas. Fender is an excellent example. You can rarely find a USA Fender that is basically crap, and you can occasionally find a Japanese or Mexican Fender that is outstanding. The Mexicans have really improved, but they are as a general rule NOT built to the same standards as the Americans. The rule rather than the exception is that the Americans are better.
I think our domestic market demands that the American products meet a higher standard. If a product costs less to produce in Korea or China or Japan or Argentina, from the raw materials to the labor to the factory floor, then it will naturally reach the market at a lower price. To compete, companies like Ovation, and Fender, and even Goodyear Tire must offer their domestic product at a higher price point than their overseas counterpart. The public is not going to pay more money for a comparable product right? So the manufacturer, in an attempt to make their American product more marketable, sets a much higher standard for production. The result is the domestic product develops a cult status that the overseas product can never achieve.
And BTW I've been on just about every scooter out there, and there are a few I would be happy to ride, but not a single brand has ever given me that mile-wide grin that a Harley can. As is music, cycling is a visceral and emotional experience. |
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Location: Miami | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 3:03 PM
Timolin - 2012-10-31 12:53 PM
Do you think any of that reaction is psychological? I don't ride motorbikes, but I imagine that for those who do, the mystique surrounding Harleys would favorably dispose the rider before he'd even switched the engine on.
Speaking only for myself, I can say unequivocably no. I try in all circumstances to avoid reaching any emotional attachment to a brand. In all situations, I try to evaluate products, be they cars, guitars, or blenders, on their merits. As a not-so-great musician, still I try very hard to make sure my instrument compliments me as much as possible, and even as a not-so-great musician, I believe my ears and hands can generally discern true quality.
I have found this same concept is (almost ) invariably true with other American manufacturers who also build instruments overseas. Fender is an excellent example. You can rarely find a USA Fender that is basically crap, and you can occasionally find a Japanese or Mexican Fender that is outstanding. The Mexicans have really improved, but they are as a general rule NOT built to the same standards as the Americans. The rule rather than the exception is that the Americans are better.
I think our domestic market demands that the American products meet a higher standard. If a product costs less to produce in Korea or China or Japan or Argentina, from the raw materials to the labor to the factory floor, then it will naturally reach the market at a lower price. To compete, companies like Ovation, and Fender, and even Goodyear Tire must offer their domestic product at a higher price point than their overseas counterpart. The public is not going to pay more money for a comparable product right? So the manufacturer, in an attempt to make their American product more marketable, sets a much higher standard for production. The result is the domestic product develops a cult status that the overseas product can never achieve.
And BTW I've been on just about every scooter out there, and there are a few I would be happy to ride, but not a single brand has ever given me that mile-wide grin that a Harley can. As is music, cycling is a visceral and emotional experience.
Interesting comments! |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | and even as a not-so-great musician, I believe my ears and hands can generally discern true quality.
Don't let my pal Jon fool ya. He is among the top tier of drummers you will ever encounter. He can hold his own on drums with ANYBODY, I don't care how famous they are. He has taught himself guitar in the past few years since I last saw him and has progressed admirably with it. I know people who have been pickin regularly for 10 years who aren't up to where he is on guitar as well. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Stop it, Dave! Everybody'll know where the batcave is! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | LOL.....Dave is fortunate to not only know one of the best fingerpickers on the planet but also one of the top tier drummers (no offense Jon). Dave.....where do you fit into with these world class musicians........
and yes, I am pulling your chain! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 1:03 PM
And BTW I've been on just about every scooter out there, and there are a few I would be happy to ride, but not a single brand has ever given me that mile-wide grin that a Harley can. As is music, cycling is a visceral and emotional experience.
This is probably only going to be understood only by the other bikers out there, but because like bikes, guitars are a more "visceral" as you say....
I too have ridden just about every scooter out there and can say most EVERY bike gives me the mile-wide grin except a Harley. In biker circles I just say Harley isn't my cup'i tea, cause I don't like getting beat up, but in general, to me, Harley, the bike is an embarrassment to what US Engineering is capable of. Harley, the brand on the otherhand, is an example of what all US Marketing should be.
I also find it interesting that my two favorite US Made products, Victory Motorcycles, and Ovation guitars share the same issues with marketing and perception, yet exceed all others in their class... or for that matter, are in a class of their own. Victory Vision, much like the Ovation Adamas, is not for everyone.
Now this next part is deep... so I apologize to the non-bikers if you don't get it. The difference with Harley vs Ovation is that no matter how much better ANY other bike is, no matter how much more ingenuity or cleverness any other bike ever has, and no matter how much a Harley owner may even like another brand and agree it's better.... the Harley owner can always end the conversation with a valid, positive statement...
"yeah... but it's not a Harley"..
We have the same thing in the Guitar world. No matter how much better Hamer, PRS, MCS, Godin, Musicman, etc etc etc etc... makes their version of the single cutaway, dual humbucker guitar... and for my money they ALL make a better guitar overall... The Les Paul owner gets to say.. "Yeah, but it's not a Les Paul".
So to the OP "What's the verdict on non-US made Ovations?" If you like'em, they're fantastic. I you don't, they suck. It really is that simple. |
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He can hold his own on drums
That's as far as I will go. Thanks, Dave!
Dave and I played together for about 5 years. I think maybe he has such a high opinion of me as a drummer because I always followed him on bass. And he's no slouch on bass either! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day. |
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand | The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl. The bowl's shape projects the sound, the bowl's materials are consistent and engineered, so the variation in vibration and sound in Ovation guitars is reduced because of the bowl.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong here) the bowls on all Ovation guitars regardless of where they are built are all USA made and are all the same (except of course for the different variations in bowl depth, etc). So where does the variation come from then? The quality of the materials for the soundboard and neck would be the prime suspects, surely.
Given the use of the bowl, Ovation should be able to produce a better quality instrument for a given price than any manufacturer who needs to construct the body of the guitar from timber and form it into specific shapes. All of that takes time and even at cheap labour rates, the money spent on labour can't then be spent on higher quality materials and hardware. So, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point. |
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Location: closely held secret | Grinna - 2012-10-31 4:02 PMSo, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point.
They are.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:37 PM
Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day.
So it would seem to all boil down to whether you prefer to think of your guitar as a commodity or more of a custom made product. Intellectuals like this really add an awful lot to a discussion... thanks prof! |
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Location: Miami | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:37 PM
Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day.
Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose? Isn't it significant that guitars, for us, come within the realm of pleasure, fun and creativity, whereas light fittings, cans of paint, and gasoline, for most of us, are merely functional items? I would have thought that when people buy things that set off the 'fun chemicals' within the brain, they'll spend much more than they will on the stuff that just gets some job done that they may not have wanted to do in the first place. No question that people want a good deal, but I'm doubtful as to whether "inexpensive and convenience" are the two driving forces behind a sweeping majority of guitar sales. For our fun stuff, don't we want the good stuff, no matter whether it's camera equipment, motor bikes, or shoes?
Edited by Timolin 2012-10-31 6:35 PM
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Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose?
Is English your first language? can you read for comprehension? The professor put your question to rest for all time with that explanation! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | That's one way to see it, Dave, but I'm taking it down much further, to the considerations behind our choices, how we all have different expectations of quality and value, and how those expectations are satisfied through our purchasing decisions. My point is that inexpensive guitars produced overseas are not seen as inferior to a large segment of the guitar consuming public who place significant value on cost and convenience. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | Professor... I take exception to your signature line! |
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Location: Miami | DaveKell - 2012-10-31 6:41 PM
Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose?
Is English your first language? can you read for comprehension? The professor put your question to rest for all time with that explanation!
The professor suggested that a sizeable majority of guitar buyers used "inexpensive and convenient" as their main reason for buying guitars. I suggested that when we buy fun products like guitars, we will often spend more on luxury items. That's all.
"Is English your first language?" "Can you read for comprehension?" Your reply is mean-spirited and ignorant. Why on earth did you feel you had to hurl that insult at me? Make you feel good? Pathetic ... |
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Location: Denver, CO | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:44 PM
My point is that inexpensive guitars produced overseas are not seen as inferior to a large segment of the guitar consuming public who place significant value on cost and convenience.
Ok professor, I see your point, however, I believe a majority of the guitar-buying public truly WANT to purchase a superior product. That is the exact reason why overseas Ovations enjoy an elevated position within what i would consider the "economy" market. Cheap Ovations are, quality-wise, at the top of their price range.
I think the point of the thread was more related toward "Are you partial to American guitars because you are a ferrinner-bashin' hick whut hates ever'body thet don't look like yew, or is there a possibility the American guitars are actually superior instruments?"
(forgive the unfortunate blending of incompatible dialects)
I feel the more likely scenario is that the majority of the guitar-buying public has no idea what constitutes a really high quality instrument. Most of us just take a peak inside that "special" room, just to gaze upon the eye candy. I would hazard a guess that a vast, vast majority of guitarists will never even handle a Martin or a Guild or, God forbid, a Yairi. To many, that koa-topped Celebrity is the prize! The question to be answered is, "Why are the American-made guitars superior? Materials? Fit and finish? Attention to detail? Or, as Mr.O implied, is it simply a mystique that we have become enamoured of?" |
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Location: Denver, CO | arthurseery - 2012-10-28 3:18 PM
I have an Awesome sounding Epiphone AJ220S (Advanced Jumbo Slope-shouldered Solid-Top) Woodbox...
These things can be had for $200 New. I got mine for $160 with a case and a tuna.
It sounds Great! For what it is... I'm sure that a Martin or a Gibson would blow-it-away.
But it is really nice for $160. (I put soundboard button-piezo transducers in it)
Hey, OMA, what kind of pups did you put in that Epi? Not to infringe on the thread, just PM me.
Thanks! |
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Location: Miami | Grinna - 2012-10-31 6:02 PM
The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl. The bowl's shape projects the sound, the bowl's materials are consistent and engineered, so the variation in vibration and sound in Ovation guitars is reduced because of the bowl.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong here) the bowls on all Ovation guitars regardless of where they are built are all USA made and are all the same (except of course for the different variations in bowl depth, etc). So where does the variation come from then? The quality of the materials for the soundboard and neck would be the prime suspects, surely.
Given the use of the bowl, Ovation should be able to produce a better quality instrument for a given price than any manufacturer who needs to construct the body of the guitar from timber and form it into specific shapes. All of that takes time and even at cheap labour rates, the money spent on labour can't then be spent on higher quality materials and hardware. So, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point.
This post makes a lot of sense. |
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It would.
It's all wrong, of course. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Grinna - 2012-10-31 4:02 PM
The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl.
So... The difference between a USA Ovation and a Korean ovation is only the Wood, the Neck Joint, the Neck Design, the Bracing (design and execution), and the Care or Lack of Care during construction.
BTW-- Has anyone actually handled one of those Vintage Lyrachord ovations? They are made in Korea.
Do they say "Bowl made by Ovation USA" inside of them?
On the videos I have seen of the flexibility of the bowl... I have a really "vintage" 1121 and the bowl don't bend! Was that bowl made in Korea? or China? When I contacted the people in Ashtabula back in January to ask if they were still making the bowls, they told me that when they considered outsourcing the bowl the Asians way back when, they just couldn't get it right.
(link to the thread with the email in it)
"As I understand, at one time, the Asians did try to produce their own bowl, but failed the acoustics and strength testing require by Ovation USA.. Lyrachord, is a very special material for Ovation Only."
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Location: Massachusetts | When Ovation started having an off shore product I sat back and wondered of the people here would get into a banter like the Fender telecaster crowd is when someone mentions (usually a troll) whether the MIM teles are as good as the USA tele. And here we are!!! Am I nationlstic ? You bet I am!! I've owned USA guitars since 1960, I own a Harley, a Corvette, a vintage Ford Fairlane, my main transportation is a Ford F350 diesel and my wife drives a Jeep. I have purchased Korean and other off shore guitars and when I first got them and played them I thought they were great, but after getting to know them I found various components and workmanship that didn't hold up to the level of quality of my USA models.
This doesn't mean that you have to buy USA products, but don't expect as good a product from a company that went off shore to make a bigger profit.
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Location: Miami | javaman - 2012-10-31 11:06 PM
When Ovation started having an off shore product I sat back and wondered of the people here would get into a banter like the Fender telecaster crowd is when someone mentions (usually a troll) whether the MIM teles are as good as the USA tele.
Really? Perhaps at least some of them were asking because they were considering buying an MIM tele and wanted some thoughts from people with more experience. That's certainly my case. There's a cedar-topped 1778 Elite that Ovation has brought out that looks and seems great by the specs. I've no way of trying this guitar in a store, however, so if I do buy it, there will be some risk. For this reason, I was interested to hear what the people who are really involved with Ovations had to say.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | Timolin - 2012-10-31 11:22 PM
I was interested to hear what the people who are really involved with Ovations had to say.
Really? I would submit from rereading this thread you had your entire spectrum of answers satisfactorily presented to you on page 1 of this thread. My "reading for comprehension" remark I lifted from the smartest guy on another forum who uses it in situations like this where someone keeps pursuing the same thing over and over when their question has been answered. I apologize if it offended you. It was an honest question. and if you think I insulted you, did you miss this one?
"For someone as erudite as you, I'm surprised you used the word "work" when you really meant to say "bullshit".
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Location: Miami | Timolin - 2012-10-31 1:53 PM
It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one.
I'm in your town and I offered you that chance. You said you were too busy. The offer still stands if you mean what you say. |
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Location: Massachusetts | Timolin, it sounds like Jukebox Joe has given you the offer to resolve the question in your mind. Go see him and then get back to us with your opinion.
When I was in Ft. Myers Guitar Center a couple of weeks ago there were three new Ovations in the acoustic room and a couple of shallow body USA Legends just outside the room. I know it's a couple hours drive, but if your in the area you might as well check it out.
This is half the fun of buying an axe, so when you walk out the door with your newly acquired guitar you're satisfied that you made the right choice. Good luck with whatever you decide on.
Edited by javaman 2012-11-01 7:11 AM
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 7:21 PM I believe a majority of the guitar-buying public truly WANT to purchase a superior product. Exactly. I am only suggesting that "superior" means different things to different people. A Korean Ovation guitar represents superior value to many people. |
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Location: Flahdaw | DaveKell - 2012-10-31 7:41 PM
Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose?
Is English your first language? can you read for comprehension? The professor put your question to rest for all time with that explanation!
Ha! Way to step up to the plate, DK. People are sick of my mindless banter, so it's nice to see others take up the slack.
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | My Korean Custom Legend probably isn't as good as it's American-made counterpart. Nontheless, it plays awesome. I've been playing since the 70's and I've played literally thousands of guitars. This guitar fits my needs. It's not a showpiece. Though it is very nice looking (it has some bling). A lady who's seen me play for over 30 years. Told me the other day my red guitar looked so much nicer than my black (Adamas W597) one and she said,"You sound so much better with it too!" For what it's worth, I would prefer American, but it fits my needs, On the plus side, Ovation made the money. Not some guy who's had it for 5 years. If everyone did that Ovation would be out of business. I wouldn't like that very much. Maybe the new guy coming in will take another look and bring some back and make them here. Thanks for letting me hang around. |
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Location: south east Michigan | So... Timmy...
This discussion reminds me something I've always wondered.
And, the way this dead horse thread has gone, it will fit right in.
.
So... Timmy
PC vs. MAC
.
GO!
Edited by Slipkid 2012-11-01 11:04 AM
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Brad, with all due respect ... and I'm not just saying this to be funny:
USE THE SEARCH BUTTON !!! This topic has been discussed here ad nauseum. There is a wealth of knowledge and opinions on PC vs MAC here.
Probably thousands of posts await your command. I'm not calling you lazy (perhaps portly would be more appropriate), but this just strikes me as a cry for instant gratification. Read the 5 pages of posts in this thread ... do you really want Tim's or anyone elses opinion on this? Just just the SEARCH button like a good little coconut monkey, read the focking posts and form you own expert opinion.
Now ... back to the Guard Shack. |
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Location: Miami | Brad Durasa - 2012-11-01 11:02 AM
So... Timmy...
This discussion reminds me something I've always wondered.
And, the way this dead horse thread has gone, it will fit right in.
.
So... Timmy
PC vs. MAC
.
GO!
Stop trying to be offensive by calling me Timmy. Is that how you feel you can best strike a blow for some ridiculous stance you've taken over this thread, to make fun of the name of the person who started it? What are you, 12 years old??
Edited by Timolin 2012-11-01 1:00 PM
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Location: Miami | DaveKell - 2012-11-01 6:02 AM
Timolin - 2012-10-31 11:22 PM
I was interested to hear what the people who are really involved with Ovations had to say.
Really? I would submit from rereading this thread you had your entire spectrum of answers satisfactorily presented to you on page 1 of this thread. My "reading for comprehension" remark I lifted from the smartest guy on another forum who uses it in situations like this where someone keeps pursuing the same thing over and over when their question has been answered. I apologize if it offended you. It was an honest question. and if you think I insulted you, did you miss this one?
"For someone as erudite as you, I'm surprised you used the word "work" when you really meant to say "bullshit".
Whatever ... |
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Location: Miami | joetunon - 2012-11-01 6:23 AM
Timolin - 2012-10-31 1:53 PM
It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one.
I'm in your town and I offered you that chance. You said you were too busy. The offer still stands if you mean what you say.
It's a kind offer, and I'd like to take you up on it sometime. Right now, though, I just wanted to talk about US vs. overseas Ovations a bit. It's proving difficult, I'm having to take all kinds of bs., insults and stone-walling from various internet "tough" guys who, no doubt, are delightful when you meet them in real life. The good thing for me, though, is that some people have given some interesting replies and been gracious in doing so. I thank them for that! |
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Location: south east Michigan | StandingOvation... Thanks for the suggestion. I took your advise and found a weath of information in a very short time. I at first hesitated because I feared I might reduce the OFC to a mere data base of cold, hard facts. For almost 9 years now I've come here for the lively, fresh person to person banter. Now I've found... that I can have .... BOTH! .................. Sorry about the "Timmy" thing Timolin. It won't happen again. ......................................... So... Timbow .... Have you got your answers? Or is there one degree in this 360 degree circle that is still shrouded in mystery & shadow? Cause if there is, I can go all night.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-11-01 1:30 PM
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Regardless of the content of this thread I have never seen anyone who uses the "quote" function as much as Timolin. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Without him using the quote function, it would be difficult for the rest us to keep track of which insulting and/or derogatory comment Timolin was responding to. |
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Location: SoCal | Timolin - 2012-11-01 11:08 AM I just wanted to talk about US vs. overseas Ovations a bit. noah - 2012-10-30 1:08 PM Timolin, Verdict... you start... Compare the new non-USA-made Ovations to the O's and A's (and other brands) you've acquired over the past five years. Contrast playability, sound, materials, fit & finish, etc. What instruments do you still have? Timolin, I was (and still am) willing to talk about "US vs. overseas Ovations". You start. Tell me how the new non-USA-made Ovations compare to what you've had and played. I included some quotes from some of your old posts. Looks like you have/had some decent guitars... "I have recently bought a 2002 W597 Adamas" "had an Ovation Custom Elite in the 90s that I foolishly sold" "I'm very interested in selling my current nylon string guitar and buying an Ovation" "1680 FS...Is this handsome beast still for sale?" "Adamas 1680...I've bitten the bullet, so to speak and ordered one from Oklahoma Vintage Guitars" "2078LE-AS Elite...mine's #38" "I've just pushed the buttons on a Custom Elite 778LX Black Cherry Burst" "I have a custom 12-fret slothead Martin 000-18GE....But Ovations? I would happily buy 6 of them if I could justify it!" "I'm currently looking at the T-series 1778TX-4CS" "I recently bought a Takamine TF87PT...I used to own an Ovation 1778TX, the black matte-finish one with a spruce top, and I found this really was a little dull on the trebles" |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | "And now I've found that I can have BOTH"
And THAT Bradley is not necessarily a BAD thing ...
Edited by Standingovation 2012-11-01 2:22 PM
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | Nice tat |
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Location: SoCal | Possible theme for next year's calendar... Boys of the OFC |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | noah - 2012-11-01 2:31 PM Possible theme for next year's calendar... Boys of the OFC Now that is very funny, Bruce! |
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Location: Denver, CO | Lifted from a current thread in the luthiery department:
""Hi, I just picked up a 1967 shiny back (#1354). It's in decent shape, 3 piece top, 5 piece neck. Has the 'Ovation stress crck below the bridge, but not too bad, more of a surface crack with lacquer checking (not near as bad as my '73 Balladeer), and some more checking along the joint where the heal joins the neck. Very smooth though.
The neck is wonderful feeling and the frets show minimal wear. The sound is really good - way better than my newer Celebrity series. ""
There you go. Independant corroboration from one not previously involved in this discussion. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Tim, are you a lawyer? I don't mean that as an insult, necessarily. I was just wondering, since many are disagreeable, in the sense of argumentative. Most seem to outgrow it, or possibly just get tired of arguing all the time. Others argue every chance they get, perhaps thinking that it helps train them in their craft. Some take it over to chat rooms or comment sections of websites, where they seem to argue instead of "chat" or "comment". |
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Location: Texas | "I can go all night"
I think you are in the wrong forum.
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Location: south east Michigan | well yeah,,, there is that.
still true tho.
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Location: Flahdaw | amosmoses - 2012-11-01 4:28 PM
"I can go all night"
I think you are in the wrong forum.
Maybe he was responding to StandingOvations picture.. |
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Timolin - 2012-10-28 12:28 PM (#461125) ...the black matte-finish one... I found this really was a little dull on the trebles. |
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Location: Flahdaw | "Is this handsome beast still for sale?" |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Brilliant Bruce |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Grinna - 2012-10-31 4:02 PM
The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl. The bowl's shape projects the sound, the bowl's materials are consistent and engineered, so the variation in vibration and sound in Ovation guitars is reduced because of the bowl.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong here) the bowls on all Ovation guitars regardless of where they are built are all USA made and are all the same (except of course for the different variations in bowl depth, etc). So where does the variation come from then? The quality of the materials for the soundboard and neck would be the prime suspects, surely.
While the bowls are made in the US, their materials and method of manufacture has changed over the years.
The original bowls made in the late 60s were hand-laid using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. When this proved to take too long to manufacture in quantity, the bowls were then made from polyester resin-impregnated fiberglass cloth (prepreg) and were pressed into the shape in a heated compression mold, which reduced the manufacturing time from hours to minutes.
By all accounts, the earlier, hand-laid epoxy bowls produce/produced a superior sound, which is why this is still the preferred method to make a bowl.
Because epoxy resin is structurally stronger than polyester resin, the thickness of the bowls had to be increased, which also increased the weight of the bowls. At some point, a reduction in weight was sought, which resulted in the use of micro-balloons. (phenolic microspheres) Naturally, since the micro-balloons result in less resin usage because they are a filler, their usage not only reduced weight, but also cost because their usage also means less resin is used for each bowl.
Presumably, this usage of micro-balloons did not further degrade the sound projection/vibration capability of the bowls, but as I say, according to what I've read and heard the hand-laid epoxy bowls are better sounding than the compression-molded polyester prepreg bowls.
True, all the bowls are made in the US, but not all US bowls are made equal.
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Location: Flahdaw | Seriously? I think this thread has moved WAY beyond trying to answer Mr T's "questions"... |
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand | DanSavage - 2012-11-02 9:59 AM
While the bowls are made in the US, their materials and method of manufacture has changed over the years.
The original bowls made in the late 60s were hand-laid using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. When this proved to take too long to manufacture in quantity, the bowls were then made from polyester resin-impregnated fiberglass cloth (prepreg) and were pressed into the shape in a heated compression mold, which reduced the manufacturing time from hours to minutes.
By all accounts, the earlier, hand-laid epoxy bowls produce/produced a superior sound, which is why this is still the preferred method to make a bowl.
Because epoxy resin is structurally stronger than polyester resin, the thickness of the bowls had to be increased, which also increased the weight of the bowls. At some point, a reduction in weight was sought, which resulted in the use of micro-balloons. (phenolic microspheres) Naturally, since the micro-balloons result in less resin usage because they are a filler, their usage not only reduced weight, but also cost because their usage also means less resin is used for each bowl.
Presumably, this usage of micro-balloons did not further degrade the sound projection/vibration capability of the bowls, but as I say, according to what I've read and heard the hand-laid epoxy bowls are better sounding than the compression-molded polyester prepreg bowls.
True, all the bowls are made in the US, but not all US bowls are made equal.
Wow, thanks. That's actually really interesting as well as being helpful. Would it be correct to assume that hand-laid bowls might have a greater degree of variation than a prepreg lay up? |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Grinna - 2012-11-01 3:49 PM
Wow, thanks. That's actually really interesting as well as being helpful. Would it be correct to assume that hand-laid bowls might have a greater degree of variation than a prepreg lay up? From what I read in The History of Ovation Guitar, they first tried two molds: male and female. The book didn't talk too much about the female molds but did describe in enough detail about the male molds for me to understand the process based upon my experience with composites. They would basically use the standard method of waxing the mold, then wetting it with epoxy, then laying the cloth on and forming it to the shape of the bowl. Then they would brush on more epoxy and add another layer of cloth. Lastly, they would put on a layer of plastic sheet, then grease it with Vaseline and then apply vacuum. They then squeegeed out the excess epoxy so they had a high cloth to resin ratio. Technically speaking, you can only get so much resin out because the layers of cloth can only be squeezed down so much before it becomes incompressible. So, you would be able to get pretty consistent pieces out of this type of molds because of the vacuum. Non-vacuum molding would produce more inconsistent parts thicknesses because there's nothing squeezing out the excess resin. It's a lot easier to do this sort of work on a male mold than a female one because it's a lot harder to do this with a cavity mold. The prepreg compression molds have a male and female mold in a hydraulic press, which, when closed also form a consistent thickness, because they've been machined accurately, which I would presume a company like Ovation would do. (See: Ovation Factory Tour 1984 USA) Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2012-11-01 7:00 PM
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Location: SoCal | ...search on, bowl construction. This might help. http://ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26395&posts=13&highlight=fiberglass%20bowl%20&highlightmode=1#M344295 |
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Location: Tuscany, Italy | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 10:17 PM
Lifted from a current thread in the luthiery department:
"" Hi, I just picked up a 1967 shiny back.......
The neck is wonderful feeling and the frets show minimal wear. The sound is really good - way better than my newer Celebrity series. ""
There you go. Independant corroboration from one not previously involved in this discussion.
I own a db shiny bowl too and sound terrific, but it also depends to what kind of celebrity you are comparing it. I recently got a CC67 built probably in the late '80 that sound fantastic (spruce top - deep bowl - mod - A bracing) that compared with a more recent celeb., a CS247 (maple top - mid-depth bowl - quintad bracing) it sounded dull to me (and I sold it). I know, is like comparing oranges with bananas ...
I mean, not all the Celebrity out there sounds like s..t. |
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Location: Miami | He doesn't want an answer to any question. He just wants to chat. (His words, not mine). And apparently, we all want to chat too (myself included). But I'm done. I offered to satisfy his curiosity but he said maybe some other time.
'nuff said.
Later all. |
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Thanks for the link. The information posted about the hand-laid bowls was taken from the same source I quoted, i.e.: The History of Ovation Guitar.
Lyrachord is simply a trademark given to the composite material used for the bowls on Ovation guitars. The actual material used has changed over the years, though the name used for it has remained the same. Originally it was epoxy resin. (See: US Patent 3,474,697 "...the body is made from plies of glass fabric pre-impregnated with epoxy resin and laminated to a thickness of approximately 0.036 inch...")This was later changed to polyester resin. (See: Ovation Factory Tour 1984 USA, page 52 "...Ovation body bowls are molded in a heated, chrome-plated compression molding die. The press has a 300-ton compression capacity, and the temperature is over 300º. The molding material is a polyester resin/Fiberglass combination, which comes on a roll that must be kept at temperatures under 40º until it is molded...") I have read the references on this site to the most recently produced bodies being injection molded. I would like to know more about the process, but in searching online I haven't found any 'official' information about it. Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2012-11-02 10:31 AM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | DanSavage - 2012-11-02 8:21 AM Thanks for the link. The information posted about the hand-laid bowls was taken from the same source I quoted, i.e.: The History of Ovation Guitar. Lyrachord is simply a trademark given to the composite material used for the bowls on Ovation guitars. The actual material used has changed over the years, though the name used for it has remained the same. Originally it was epoxy resin. (See: US Patent 3,474,697 "...the body is made from plies of glass fabric pre-impregnated with epoxy resin and laminated to a thickness of approximately 0.036 inch..." ) This was later changed to polyester resin. (See: Ovation Factory Tour 1984 USA, page 52 "...Ovation body bowls are molded in a heated, chrome-plated compression molding die. The press has a 300-ton compression capacity, and the temperature is over 300º. The molding material is a polyester resin/Fiberglass combination, which comes on a roll that must be kept at temperatures under 40º until it is molded...") I have read the references on this site to the most recently produced bodies being injection molded. I would like to know more about the process, but in searching online I haven't found any 'official' information about it. Dan If I recall correctly from the tour, they still use the high-preassure mold as referenced above but the actual material used, the stuff that comes on a roll, has more glass bead content resulting in the new lighter bowl. The best place to find the specific info would be to find a video of the factory tour from the year after the LX series was released. 2005 maybe? Not real sure on the date. But Rick Hall explains the new bowl at some point. |
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Location: Texas | So, over the years, as bowl composition has "evolved", is there any opinion whether it has affected projection or tone, for the better? I imagine it is pretty hard to determine, as bracing, soundboard design and composition has "evolved" also. I understand it is a sum of the parts...but was just wondering if Ovation bowls have actually improved the tonal response. |
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Location: sitting at my computer | amosmoses - 2012-11-02 12:07 PM I imagine it is pretty hard to determine, as bracing, soundboard design and composition has "evolved" also. Agreed. Seems to me with so many variables in each model, it's a lot like comparing apples to oranges to mangos. Were the bowl changes mainly for tonal improvement or for weight reduction?? Are there any published test results? |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | mileskb - 2012-11-02 8:52 AM If I recall correctly from the tour, they still use the high-preassure mold as referenced above but the actual material used, the stuff that comes on a roll, has more glass bead content resulting in the new lighter bowl. The best place to find the specific info would be to find a video of the factory tour from the year after the LX series was released. 2005 maybe? Not real sure on the date. But Rick Hall explains the new bowl at some point. Thanks for the info. I searched and found the links to the videos you mention, but unfortunately, Waskel's original 41-minute video that Old Man Arthur put on YT is long-gone. (See: 2005 Ovation Factory Tour on YT -- 41 min Long) I sent Waskel a PM asking if he still has any of the original DVDs he produced. Thanks again, Dan |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | amosmoses - 2012-11-02 9:07 AM
So, over the years, as bowl composition has "evolved", is there any opinion whether it has affected projection or tone, for the better? I imagine it is pretty hard to determine, as bracing, soundboard design and composition has "evolved" also. I understand it is a sum of the parts...but was just wondering if Ovation bowls have actually improved the tonal response.
I don't own a guitar with a hand-laid bowl and I only played one recently for about 30 minutes in a fairly noisy environment so it would be difficult for me to make an accurate assessment, but according to those 'in the know', the hand-laid bowls sound better.
Based upon their assessment, it sounds to me like the projection/tone quality went down when they went to the thicker, heavier, polyester resin, compression-molded bowls.
And, this makes sense to me. The thinner, hand-laid bowls would be more sensitive to the vibrations of the top and thus, would resonate more and as a result produce a better quality sound.
Edited by DanSavage 2012-11-02 3:26 PM
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | SOBeach - 2012-11-02 10:04 AM Were the bowl changes mainly for tonal improvement or for weight reduction?? Are there any published test results? Based upon what I've read, neither. It was done to reduce production time and based upon what I know about fiberglass resins; material cost. The early hand-laid bowls were light and responsive, but were relatively time-consuming and expensive to produce. Then, they went to the polyester prepreg, which were heavier, and thicker, and thus probably less responsive, but were able to be produced more quickly because they didn't require the hand layup of the earlier epoxy bowls. As near as I can tell from my reading, this method of production was the norm throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. According to what Miles says, they're still using the same compression molding, but are using a different composition of prepreg which has micro-balloons mixed into the resin to reduce the weight. The micro-ballons are a filler that allows you to reduce the weight of a composite structure because they displace a given amount of resin with air. Because we don't have any hard data on the exact ratio, it's impossible to say whether this improves or degrades the sound quality. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that it's about the same as the earlier composition, just lighter in overall weight and probably cheaper to buy since there's less resin in the mix and resin is more expensive than micro-balloons.
Edited by DanSavage 2012-11-02 3:46 PM
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Location: Texas | Any idea what year they transitioned from hand laid? Were those just the shiny bowls? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | They still make hand laid bowls on some models. |
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Location: Texas | They still make hand laid bowls on some models. I hate to even ask this but... just not out of the same material as the old hand laid bowls? |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | I think a better question would be is whether the new hand-laid bowls sound as good as the original ones. |
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Location: Utah | amosmoses - 2012-11-02 11:07 AM
So, over the years, as bowl composition has "evolved", is there any opinion whether it has affected projection or tone, for the better? I imagine it is pretty hard to determine, as bracing, soundboard design and composition has "evolved" also. I understand it is a sum of the parts...but was just wondering if Ovation bowls have actually improved the tonal response.
My experience is limited, but it seems the handlaid bowls are louder. I have only played deep bowls in the handlaid fiberglass, an original slot head Adamas and my Ovation Patriot. In the modern injection molded bowls I've played a number of the mid, deep, and deep contour bowls. As you mention, the other factors such as materials, bracing, etc are factors confounding a decisive tonal comparison. I think the hand laid bowls may project a bit more sound towards the player, or they just vibrate more and are louder all around. People frequently mention how the hand laid bowls rumble against the body. Perhaps that is a function of the old style glass fabric vs the current glass beads. My perception is that the newer bowls are crisper in the highs, but that could be a function of the LX generation designs vs the older designs (bracing, neck, finish, etc).
The less expensive current production method allows the use of better materials and workmanship for a constant price point. So from that standpoint one could argue the current technology is better sound for the $. If $ were no object and if I were custom ordering a guitar, I would go with the hand laid bowl just for the historical geek factor and the tummy rumble it gives.
In a true apples - apples comparison I don't know that one would sound "better" than the other. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Talk about variables and comparing old vs new... Even the finishes have evolved. I'll relay a generic version of this story to keep names out of it, but in the early 2000's an artist brought one of his guitars into Ovation for repair. They noticed it sounded significantly different (not better or worse, just different) than the current version of the same model at the time. A LOT of research went into finding out why and it turned out that over the years, very subtle changes with the most significant being the glues and finish. It didn't happen all at once. At one time they switched glues to a better more ecofriendly glue and change wasn't really noticeable, use different paint, and any change wasn't really noticeable, etc etc.. There are a lot of chemicals involved in building an Ovation. They worked on it and resolved the issue with either changes to the chemicals or thicknesses and amounts, but it was an interesting study in that you really can't compare two guitars from different places and times. They are different. Probably why so many of us own so many guitars. |
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Location: Ohio | I say that for the price, they are great guitars. They sound good and play pretty well. That said, I would never buy one new because almost all my guitars are US made and I don't want to support the exportation of jobs from the US. |
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Location: NJ | interesting how if you look at the ford model T and the current ford line up you will find that the cars have evolved and changed.
look at the original ovation line up and the guitar now and you will find they evolved.
why is it we are more open to change in the car industry as opposed to the guitar industry? |
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Location: SoCal | I agree with you Al, but isn't it interesting that Martin and others, while coming out with new forward looking product, also build vintage instruments..... |
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Location: Flahdaw | I may be wrong (usually am) but didn't Ovation really make it's mark in the early years due to their electronics. Everybody who was anybody played an O 'cos no other manufacturer came close when it came to building a stage ready acoustic. It wasn't the unplugged "tone" of these Balladeers, although they sounded fine. It was the electronics.
Now there is huge demand for vintage Martins and Gibsons because of their natural tone. But Ovation can't hope to have big demand for a vintage line of guitars today based on the 70's tone OR the early 70's electronics. Today's electronics blow them away, and the tone (while unique and pretty good) is NOT stellar. As someone already pointed out, Ovation has built reissues, and they didn't do well.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | BINGO. |
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Location: sitting at my computer | darkbarguitar - 2012-11-05 2:30 PM ...but didn't Ovation really make it's mark in the early years due to their electronics. Maybe so, but when I first played an Ovation (Legend) in '76, I thought it sounded pretty darn good unplugged (especially compared to anything I'd found for the same price). The electronics were icing on the cake to me. IMO the (then unique) round back was quite comfortable, and the neck and fretboard were great!! I liked it so much I bought it and still own it today.
As someone already pointed out, Ovation has built reissues, and they didn't do well. but have any Ovation models been selling so "well"? Kinda tough to spark a buying frenzy based on the (limited) offerings I've seen hanging on the store walls. IMHO YMMV
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Location: Flahdaw | '76 was about the 1st time I ever played an Ovation too. I was dazzled by it, but mainly because I had seen them all over the Midnight Special and every other show that had live bands. In truth, I don't really know what I would have thought if I played an old Balladeer and a Martin D-28 side by side back in 1976. For the price they were very good, but good enough to start a whole "vintage collection" today and expect great results??? Probably not. |
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Location: sitting at my computer | darkbarguitar - 2012-11-05 4:22 PM '... but mainly because I had seen them all over the Midnight Special and every other show that had live bands. In truth, I don't really know what I would have thought if I played an old Balladeer and a Martin D-28 side by side back in 1976. Fair enough. I don't recall what specific guitars I had the chance to try back then, but the Legend won out. Maybe for me it was the Jim Croce factor. ...but good enough to start a whole "vintage collection" today and expect great results??? Probably not. Sometimes vintage is over-rated. |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Maybe good marketing spoo for the entry level overseas Ovations could emphasise their robustness - "You are buying a guitar for your teenager. He will probably mistreat it. Get a guitar that can take the punishment" |
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Location: south east Michigan | SOBeach - 2012-11-05 5:04 PM
Sometimes vintage is over-rated.
Agreed... Like "prototype"
Prototype guitars are just the ones they make before they get it right. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Brad Durasa - 2012-11-05 3:33 PM
Agreed... Like "prototype"
Prototype guitars are just the ones they make before they get it right.
Or they get lucky with the proto and then never duplicate it due to costs or other factors.
The Adamas proto bass I have is fantastic but for whatever reasons it was never produced. |
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Location: Miami | As is the Sweet T prototype ;-) |
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Location: Texas | ... as is my Urelite Viper...
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What's the verdict on non-US made Ovations?