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Location: seattle, wa | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ovation-Josh-White-steel-string-classical-R...
anyone see this
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Location: Halifax, nova scotia | I believe the original 60's josh advertisement said it could be strung with either steel or nylon strings, but i dont recall there being a specific classical version. They do have a slotted headstocks and classical style tuners and the bridge is a ball end type, so i dont know what makes his different from my 67 josh. |
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Location: seattle, wa | "classical style" might be a little bit..."off the mark" but, It looks real enough...not too sure about the tuning pegs.
pretty rough condition but you don't see them come up for sale too often.
I wish my country artist had a deep bowl. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | This looks all original including the fat rollers. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | yes it does, we'll see if my bid holds.
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Location: Texas | Has to be one of the first...it has been a long time since a double digit serial has shown up. I would assume the majority of the first ones were balladeers? |
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Location: Denmark | Strings seem close to the fretboard edge. But a nice, cool guitar with signs of being appreciated (played). |
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Location: Halifax, nova scotia | Would anyone know how many josh's were made before production stopped? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | First ones didn't have floral rosette. They had same rosette as the Classical. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Really? I don't recall that but it might be the case.
The small shaft tuners can take nylon strings but the are pretty prone to breaking on the gbe strings. When it was reintroduced as the folklore they used the classic machine heads, with the fat nylon shafts.
The Josh White was in the lineup from the beginning. Chances are this one is the 60th guitar made aside from the dozen or so prototypes |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I hope you're right, Bill, and I guess you'll find out soon and let us know. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Got shipped today an should be here after NAMM. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | It looks all original. A question about the bridge is I thought they were rosewood but that one looks like ebony. Maybe we made a few in ebony at the start. we'll see when it gets here. |
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Location: Texas | Congrats Bill for scoring #60. I will be interested as to your impressions, once you get it. It is interesting to me that Ovation may have produced as many of the JW's as they did the Balladeer, at this stage,...because the JW was really a non-traditional slothead, wide neck, 12 fretter...not to mention, using a plastic bowl.
The 5 point bridge, with just the holes drilled (no ball channel), probably speaks volumes to the infancy stage Ovation was at. Also, I could not see a defining picture as to whether 3 planks were used. I can't wait for you to let us know about it.
Edited by jay 2017-01-17 12:26 PM
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Location: Jet City | Nice grab |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Yeah. It is a real early bridge. Another sign is there is no heel cap. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Beal - 2017-01-17 10:25 AM
Really? I don't recall that but it might be the case.
Check the book. Pg 107 photo. Actually not the same zig-zag rosette as the classical. It was the ring of diamonds rosette, same as some of the very early deluxe balladeers. |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Beal, it looks like it may be lacquer finished, hard to say from the pics but that would be a major bonus if it was. |
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| Here's a link to a History Detectives episode on Josh White and a custom Guild guitar which the owner thinks is a pre-cursor to a Guild Josh White signature model. In addition to tracking down the history of the custom Guild guitar, the episode addresses Ovation's beating Guild to the punch in launching a Josh White signature model guitar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2dXwZ5beQ0
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Nice video. Y'all should watch it.
BUT it was 66, not 67. And it was probably 65 that Charlie approached Charlie Byrd with a guitar. He said "I don't play steel strings. You should go show it to Josh White who is playing across town" So Charlie did. He walked in and said to Josh, here try this. Josh's response was "This guitar has the biggest motherf@#kin balls I've ever heard". But I need a wide neck. (He probably also said 12 frets but i never heard that part)
I have heard about the Guild one and I think it is just as Mark Dronge said, Guild got busy keeping up with the British invasion and it slid by the way side. Ovation didn't have a dog in that race and was just trying to get started so it was acoustics only. When the first catalogue came out there were only 4 models, a standard and deluxe balladeer, the Josh White and a classic. It was single sheets of black and white pictures, maybe there are copies on the tribute web site?
So Josh was an endorser from the get go, before the company even started, and at the unveiling and announcement of the new Ovation company in November 1966, Josh White was there and played.
Now as the video said, he went to England for a while. While there, there was another Josh White model. I had one once, a real dog. I think it was a Premier brand. It had his name on the lable. So he wasn't new to this game. But I guess that one never went anywhere so when he came back he probably had the Guild episode. When that didn't work he had Ovation.
Now the first guitar ever made for him was given to him at our house. He came up from New York to visit and get the guitar. When the nut slot was cut somehow they got it wrong and the intonation was off. He claimed he couldn't play it in tune so he played the guitar he brought with him. I don't really remember what it was but it probably was that Guild. I think I would have remembered a Martin. It sure wasn't that double pick guard Martin he is seen with.
In looking at the Guild in that Video it has a flat fingerboard.
Now this #60.
It is all original. It is a 2 piece top, It has the multiple wood strips of purfling as did the deluxe balladeer. It is lacquer. It is an ebony bridge. It has a flat fingerboard. It has the Leaf rosette. The classic rosette was never used on the JWs, As far as the picture on p 107, a real unique guitar. Not the production keys and I can't recall ever seeing that rosette. I don't think there were many, if any,(hard to remember those small details 50 years later) production models with herringbone purfling, like that picture.
#60 has the original keys, and there were two variations of these, the fat nylon shafts (which were a sleeve fit over the steel shaft) for the nylon and the steel shafts for the JWs. A nice thing about this guitar is that it was well cared for. The top is flat and the rosette has not started to curl at the edges.Lots of small cracks in the fingerboard from drying out. easy to fix and I need to patch the bridge and we are done then.
John Bange, thanks for posting this. It's a really cool guitar |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Now the Herringbone purfling. There is another guitar with this. When I was working at the factory in the summer of 68 one of my jobs was to take out the trash. They were clearing out the engineering department and i had to take a bunch of parts and mongrels to the dump. They said make sure you smash them up real good or else they will be coming back to service for repair in a year or two. There were about 20 units. most not completed guitars. My helper and I played baseball with rocks and used the guitars as bats. Smashed them real good.
except one. It actually was complete and played. So I threw it away in my car and gave it to my girlfriend who kept it and still has it.
It is, nylon strung, X braced, herringbone binding, 12 fret neck, classic rosette and bridge, lacquer finish. sn 251. A real one off.
Fast forward 44 years. I see the guitar again. It has 5 strings on it so I restring it. Action is perfect, top is dead flat, neck is perfectly stright, intonation is correct. It is missing the bass side ear. It has NEVER been in a case. Guess we knew how to build them back then.
Where is that guitar? It's hanging on the wall behind me. And for the record, we never broke up, we just took a 44 year vacation. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | NOW, anyone out there with an early Josh White? Does it have a flat fretboard? |
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Location: Jet City | Beal - 2017-01-23 4:19 PM And for the record, we never broke up, we just took a 44 year vacation. You talking about the guitar? Or the girl? |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Beal - 2017-01-23 6:19 PM
Where is that guitar? It's hanging on the wall behind me. And for the record, we never broke up, we just took a 44 year vacation.
That is just SO Romantic!!!!! *heavy sigh*
Thank You so much for sharing that story Beal! And Congratulations, on the Guitar AND the Girl!
(I love happy endings like this... guess you should have my signature line!  )
Edited by Nancy 2017-01-23 7:09 PM
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Location: Indiana | Great stuff Bill. Thanks.
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Beal - 2017-01-23 4:01 PM
Now this #60.
Watched the video.
So, is this guitar (#60) the same one JW is seen playing in the video? IOW, how many were 'issued' to him? |
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Location: Texas | Bill, JW died in 69. Had production stopped prior to his death or did it stop afterwards. Either way...what was the reason for the end of the line. Totally appreciate you taking the time for the history lesson. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | #247 has a radius fretboard |
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Location: SW Mintsoda | BCam - 2017-01-18 12:51 PM
Here's a link to a History Detectives episode on Josh White and a custom Guild guitar which the owner thinks is a pre-cursor to a Guild Josh White signature model. In addition to tracking down the history of the custom Guild guitar, the episode addresses Ovation's beating Guild to the punch in launching a Josh White signature model guitar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2dXwZ5beQ0
That was a great video clip - thanks.
Although it's not accurate to say Ovation beat Guild to the punch on the Josh White Signature model; Guild had decided that music was moving on by '65/'66 (to groups like the Beatles and more electric stuff) and therefore decided not to pursue the JW model. Ovation made a different decision. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | don't know how many were given to Josh. 2-3? He didn't ask for much.
60 was not one of them I don't think, although it did come to me from NY/NJ area. (of course if I ever sell it I'll claim it was he's favorite one! LOL)
Production stopped after he died. Didn't want to continue making money off someone who had passed. (although the company probably didn't make any money till after campbell had it on tv every week) There was some demand still and eventually the Folklore came along.
I'd say Guild was first. then they passed and Ovation stepped up.
this is #60 and I'd GUESS that maybe there were 15-20 made before that. There were only 4 models and he was an endorser so that should carry a little weight. a couple classics and the rest std and dlx b'dr. |
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Location: When?? | Terrific story, Bill. Thanks for telling it. I'm sure you have plenty, and we'd love to hear 'em all! |
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Location: Halifax, nova scotia | Fantastic to hear the early stories. Thanks bill! I love my josh white and im pleased to be its owner. |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Great stuff, Beal. You should write your own book.
What about the sound of #60? With the deep shiny bowl, 12 fret neck and lacquer finish, it has to be one of the biggest sounding O's ever made. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | It still has the dead silk and steel strings. I haven't changed them yet. I need to plug the bridge and then get it restrung. But it is very responsive, even with the dead strings.
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I don't need a book, Walter did a good job with that one. Maybe some new chapters if we can get them to republish it again.
But now.....The March Acoustic Guitar has a nice article on Josh White. Check it our. Buffy Saint Marie is on the cover. Funny thing, we were going to make a model for her, also at the beginning when we were doing Josh's. It was a smaller bowl, kinda like an OM. As far as I know there was only 1 made. It used to be hanging in the engineering room. It was a mid depth model. |
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Location: undisclosed | My Dad was into Josh White, he had a bunch of old 78s. He couldn't stand rock, jazz stopped at Dixieland, blues ended with Leadbelly etc... He spent a fair amount of time yelling to turn down records, electric guitars, violins etc... One of my favorite moments was when he heard an acoustic 12 string version of "I Hear My Train A'comin" coming out of the stereo. He came in and said, "Now see! That is music! Who is it?" "Uh, Dad that is Jimi Hendrix."
He slammed the door on the way out but let up a bit after that.
One of the downsides of music becoming industry is that it is propelled by fad. Generations can lose their voice. It is sad to think of a world that hasn't heard of Josh White as he is relevant now.
Edited by Cavalier 2017-01-28 3:07 PM
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I have come across an early picture of Charlie and Josh. I sent it to StandingOvation. Maybe he can post it here since he is much more technical advanced on all this computer spoo. It shows the guitar as having that rosette that Dave referred to. Not one I ever remember being used but the one in an early published foot. It also appears to be a flat fingerboard.
I guess it is a sign of being established, or just around for a long time, I was thinking who to ask about the details back then. There aren't any of them left.
Edited by Beal 2017-02-08 8:26 AM
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Here's the photo ... Yes that is the one I was referring to. I'm pretty sure he played it at the product launch. I had heard the story about the nut (check out the photo). It's a strange ham fist job. A shorter scale fretboard glued onto a longer scale neck and they had to make a "filler" north of the nut. Odd but true. This would be a very historical guitar if it still exists.
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Location: Tuscany, Italy | Very nice. Thanks for posting. Looks like a "zero fret" arrangement. |
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Location: Texas | What an awesome picture! Yeah...something happened with that neck? Effectively they did zero fret it, with a nut, but that just adds to the mystic of being a fledgling guitar company. this JW would stand out if it ever showed up again. Thanks Bill for sharing this. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | that is definitely a flat fingerboard
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Location: 6 String Ranch | the european Josh White model was the Zenith brand. I remember that now, I had one. it was terrible and I sold it |
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Location: When?? | @Beal ->>He came up from New York to visit and get the guitar. When the nut slot was cut somehow they got it wrong and the intonation was off. He claimed he couldn't play it in tune....<--
So was the guitar he came to the house for the same one as in the photo? If it was, I sure hope he kept it anyway, and that it didn't go into the "mongrel" pile and eventually get used as a rock bat at the county dump. |
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| This is a photo of # 291 which was made especially for Josh, which I photographed in 1999.
The truss rod cover is different than the one pictured with Charlie, and it appears that the zero fret is a bit shorter.
The top was refinished and the bridge and rosette were replaced by the factory, probably in 1969. However, the wear from Josh's fingernails can been seen underneath the finish. The bowl was also textured at that time.
The interesting thing is that both guitars have snowflake inlays at the 12th fret instead of diamonds.
When I photographed the guitar there was a hole in the back of the bowl, but it was subsequently refurbished and the hole was covered.
Edited by bobfrith 2017-02-10 2:00 PM
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Location: 6 String Ranch | well this keeps getting more and more interesting
They had no idea that replacing things as they were was better than replacing with what was currently being used. They thought that was better. Not wrong, but not right,
Was that a flat fingerboard?
Josh used to come up to the factory once a month and have his fingernails remade. He had psoriasis and his fingernails stopped growing. So we made some for him out of bowl material. A little bit of cloth and a real slow mix of laminac cause it generated heat when it cured. Then sand them down and polish, gargle some scotch and play for the people and drive back to NY. See you next month. The good old days.
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Location: Texas | Presumably, the faux nails were only on his right hand?
Did they look remotely natural?
(Now I want carbon-fiber fingernails.) |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | right hand only and it was clear resign. a little thick though so it did look a little funny. I don't know what happened to the guitar at the house that day. But it sure isn't #291
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| In 1999 a guy named Nick Chinetti from Charlotte, NC listed this guitar (#291) on eBay with a reserve of $1,000. I was in the area and visited Nick for several hours and took photos of the guitar. Nick said that he and his family were friends of Josh, and when Josh died his family acquired the guitar and it was in his sister's closet for 30 years.
The guitar had an unoriginal bridge, refinished top, raised rosette and a textured back. It was obvious that the textured back was not original, as there was texture residue on the heel of the neck. When I informed Nick that the guitar had modifications he pulled the auction.
At that time the guitar was missing the inlay from the third fret, missing several screws from the tuners, and had a large dent in the back with a hole.
The guitar resurfaced a few years ago, offered for sale by a guitar dealer at a price of about $6,000. It had been completely restored.
The digital pictures give a better resolution of the label and zero fret.
Edited by bobfrith 2017-02-11 10:39 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I keep the fingernails on my right hand longer for finger picking. When I break a nail, I use ASP fiberglass (woven cloth) fingernail wraps and C/A to replace the broken nail, or to reinforce a hang nail.
I've also used silk nail wraps with C/A and of the two, the silk is more durable.
It usually takes about 6-7 layers of cloth to build it up so it's thick enough to withstand the steel strings.
As you say, Bill, it does look a little funny because of how thick they are. But, who cares how they look. I don't do it for looks. |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I don't think what we're seeing in the photos can really be called a zero fret as the arrangement of the extra piece of wood and the nut are backwards.
Here's what a standard zero fret arrangement looks like. Of course, it's possible I'm not understanding how the zero fret on #291 is set up. 
Edited by DanSavage 2017-02-11 10:47 AM
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| Dan, obviously this is not a zero fret, but that terminology was used as, to my knowledge, there is no other name for the extended fretboard. |
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Location: Texas | Bob, thanks for clearing up the story behind 291. I saw it for sale by Dream guitars a while ago and wondered what had happened to it, as the bridge and bowl appeared not to be original. Wayne Reid said that the top was, as he had seen an early picture of the guitar and it had the same figuring above the soundhole as this guitar. Here are some more pics...
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Well, no doubt made for Josh. Rickard signed the table. Undoubtedly when it came in for repair the service dept said "Oh we'll up grade this to how we do it now, It's better anyway" It looks like a radiused fingerboard. Rickard would have been the one to add the snowflakes. A cool little touch.
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Location: New Hartford CT | Beal - 2017-02-11 3:46 PM Well, no doubt made for Josh. Rickard signed the table. Undoubtedly when it came in for repair the service dept said "Oh we'll up grade this to how we do it now, It's better anyway" It looks like a radiused fingerboard. Rickard would have been the one to add the snowflakes. A cool little touch. Yup, my Dad's '67 #691 Deluxe Balladeer popped the bridge...they upgraded it from rosewood to walnut  At least they kept the 5 point shape. This was around 1970 or so...these days first thing any Ovation expert points out on seeing the guitar is "That is not the original bridge!!" Sigh...even thought that bridge has been on there for 47 years, it is non-original!
Edited by Geostorm98 2017-02-11 3:36 PM
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Location: Texas | What I thought was neat was that the model name was signed the same way the headstock is. nice touch. |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | jay - 2017-02-11 4:36 PM
What I thought was neat was that the model name was signed the same way the headstock is. nice touch.
Beal, did Josh not actually sign the Labels on the earliest JW's, same as this one of his?
Wayne |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | no, i really don't think so |
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Location: Texas | Wayne...Wouldn't that have been cool...that each JW would have his autograph on the label...but it looks like he had some help...
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Location: When?? | On the fingernail topic.. we own a salon that my wife runs. I like to call the manicurist section the "body and fender department" since it often smells like it and they use a lot of the same-type materials and techniques, just in a much smaller version. Anyway, I've been forever amazed at what some of these girls can do to accommodate peoples' practical nail needs, including a handful of string instrument players as clients over the years (male and female) who have their nails done in custom configuration to suit their own picking/plucking/pressing style and to spare damage to their instruments. If you finger pickers want something that looks and feels natural, but still holds up like steel, any given [experienced] manicurist will surely be able to outfit you with dialed in pro service tailored to your own playing style and you won't be walking around with clumps on your fingertips. On subsequent visits they will also be able to read the wear pattern and know how to properly fortify it for ongoing usage.
Edited by Love O Fair 2017-02-12 5:24 PM
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Davis used to get Solar Nails. I tried them once and they worked well |
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Location: When?? | @Beal -->Davis used to get Solar Nails. I tried them once and they worked well<--
Yep. That's what I was talking about. "Solar" was originally a trademark brand name, but has since become a generic term for many acrylic-type nail applications. What Dan was saying about his own, home-style silk wrap application is also done by the pros, but not as strong as acrylic (and 7 layers.. wow.. that's what I meant by "clumps"). Acrylics (solar) are definitely the way to go for thin/natural-appearing, durability, and are best for specific shaping to suit particular needs like string instrument playing or daily computer keyboard typing that takes a quick toll on natural nails. Not just for pretty ladies.. here are lots of fingernail scenarios that most people would never even think of, yet greatly affect the daily lives of the people who use their nails for.. whatever. There was even a baseball pitcher once (back in the 70's.. can't remember his name) who was using natural-appearing acrylic nails for amazing ball control that his own nails would have never held up for, but when they discovered it they made him stop since it was ruled along the same lines as using any other foreign substance on the ball. Fortunately, there are no umpires in guitar (unless you count critics.. lol).
Edited by Love O Fair 2017-02-12 6:27 PM
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Location: Texas | I hate to steer this away from the beauty salon aspect, but I found a facebook post that indicated the Rock and Roll HOF in Cleveland had one of Josh's Ovations. I wrote to ask if this was correct and if so, could we have some pics...their response... We do have an Ovation guitar played by Josh White here at the museum, but it is currently in storage, not on display. Unfortunately, I am not permitted to provide you with photos of the guitar, as it is not owned by the museum but on loan to us from the estate. My apologies! |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Dang... that would have been interesting to see. It might be that first one. |
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Location: Indiana | Sad to see something given on loan to a museum only to be hidden from the public.
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | As to the rosette, I brought out #36 today and lo and behold it has that special rosette, like the picture of Josh and CHK. By #60 they had changed. #36 is a std Balladeer. |
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