OCP-1K Pickup Problem
trekker
Posted 2018-08-18 9:58 PM (#544950)
Subject: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

I was fortunate yesterday (or so I thought) to buy an old 1994 Standard Elite 6868 for a really good price from a guitar store. It looked good and played well in the store. The strings were shot, so I bought a new pack of D'Addario EXP11s to put on it.

After I got the new strings installed and was testing the neck for buzzing, I noticed that on my low E string, the F, F#, and G notes (first 3 frets) just sort of thump and die away. This is when I'm playing through an amp. Acoustically they sound fine. The open E and all the rest of the notes on the low E ring out like they should. But these 3 notes just die off fast with no sustain. And all the rest of the strings and notes sound out like they should.

My guess is that the pickup (an OCP-1K) is degraded at these 3 note frequencies, maybe due to age?

I know the problem is not my amp. My Godin and Seagull both ring out. And these notes play fine acoustically on my 6868, so it is probably not dead spots on the neck. But these notes just aren't "there" amplified. I have no idea if this pickup is still available or if the guitar is worth repairing or if it is something under the saddle that needs adjusting.

Has anyone run into something similar? Any advice?
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arumako
Posted 2018-08-19 7:41 AM (#544954 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 867

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Hi trekker. Congratulations on the Std. Elite purchase. I really like those 6868s. I experienced a similar issue with my 1861 when I first got it (used). It's hard to say exactly what the issue might be without actually looking at the guitar, but what you're experiencing sounds really weird. The piezo element needs to sit really flat in the bridge saddle slot, and if the base of the slot is not even, the OCP-1K may be rocking "ever so slightly" in the slot. That will definitely cause some problems. In the case of my 1861, one of the shims under the saddle-slot was bent causing intermittent signals when I played. It was an easy fix by exchanging the bent plastic shim for a hardwood shim that I cut myself.

I would definitely pull out the OCP-1K and see what's going on underneath. If there is a shim, it could just be a question of putting in a flat shim. Replacing the stock shims with hardwood shims is recommended if you have anything like that available. If there are no shims, it may be that the base of the saddle slot is uneven. I suspect a pretty simple fix will get the guitar sounding as good plugged-in as it does acoustically. Hopefully this helps. While you're at it, post some clear close-up picks of the base of the saddle slot, and some OFC heavy hitters will probably chime in real soon!
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-19 9:03 AM (#544955 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Thanks, Arumako. Yes, it is a strange problem.

Further explorations: I plugged in my headphones so I could really "hear" what this guitar is doing. So here is the skinny. The low-E does amplify, as equal as the other strings on almost all notes. So it is not that the E-string piezo has completely gone out (I know they are separate crystals in this model). But the 3rd fret G sounds staccato. When it is played, the G sounds at about half-volume and then quickly, quickly dies off, no ring to it whatsoever. The F# is similar but has more ring. The F is fine and the open E is fine. The G# does this really weird thing where the volume warbles, soft to normal, soft to normal. The A is fine, clear, lots of ring. Just for the heck of it, I tried a brand new E string. The problem was still there. Not the strings.

If the entire E string were like this, I would pull out the saddle and mess with it, making sure that the shim is under the E position correctly in order to transmit the string vibration with the most compression to the piezo. But it is only these three notes.

Ya know, if the degraded note was the F# only or just the G#, I wouldn't mind too much. This guitar is 24 years old. But it is the G and G is used in everything. Heck, some country western singers won't leave the key of G for anything. Ha ha!

So now I have to decide if:
1) I return it to the store.
2) I just live with it as a nice acoustic but I not-so-good-sounding electric.
3) I try to find one of these piezo pickups and hope that it works.

The bummer is that I bought this to be amplified. So it stinks that it doesn't work well for that purpose. You can often get great deals on used Ovations. But you better hope that everything works.
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-19 10:20 AM (#544958 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: RE: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

This plays so nice and sounds so good that I think I'm just going to keep it and if I need it amp'd, I can still use the preamp combined with an external microphone.
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2018-08-19 10:40 AM (#544959 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 263

Location: Katmandu
And you are perfectly sure the problem doesn't exist acoustically as well? Because high or uneven frets often do exist in the area you're describing causing exactly the kind of muted notes without sustain you're having.
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-19 10:48 AM (#544960 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Hi, Bones. No, I'm not perfectly sure. I don't know how I would go about fixing this, other than taking it to a professional luthier. It is definitely more pronounced amplified. I don't know enough to know if it is the frets, but my guess is that that 3rd fret G string got a lot of play over the years.

Is there a way to diagnose/fix this?
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alpep
Posted 2018-08-19 3:30 PM (#544963 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10392

Location: NJ
I have pickups in stock if you need them
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2018-08-19 6:16 PM (#544964 - in reply to #544960)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 486

Location: moline,illinois
trekker - 2018-08-19 10:48 AM

Hi, Bones. No, I'm not perfectly sure. I don't know how I would go about fixing this, other than taking it to a professional luthier. It is definitely more pronounced amplified. I don't know enough to know if it is the frets, but my guess is that that 3rd fret G string got a lot of play over the years.

Is there a way to diagnose/fix this?


If you want to check for high/uneven frets you need a fret rocker or relatively short flat piece of metal that is straight on one side that you can lay across 3 frets at a time to see if they are high or low

https://www.amazon.com/EXTAR-Stainless-Rocker-Leveling-Luthier/dp/B0...

the link is to an example on amazon but search the net and you can find many models

If you have high/uneven frets then you need to take it to a competent guitar store and have them do a fret level.



Edited by 2wheeldrummer 2018-08-19 6:20 PM
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2018-08-20 2:52 AM (#544967 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 263

Location: Katmandu

You could also just check with your eyes whether upon fretting the suspected notes the string actually has enough room to resonate without grazing the preceding fret(s), and thereby producing a muted sound, and/or whether the fret itself that you are fretting at is high enough to even produce a decent note with the proper intonation and sustain (see article here).

My educated guess is that your fourteen-year-old Elite either needs a fretjob (due to uneven or high frets) or a complete refret (because some of the fret are already too low to allow proper note-fretting). In any case a decent luthier would be able to tell on first glance.

To a lesser extent, it could also be of course that the preamp isn't seated properly or otherwise malfunctioning, but I find that very unlikey given how durable and reliable Ovation's high-end-range preamps are (especially the older ones). And if it indeed is the preamp, Al got you covered with his supply of backup preamps.



Edited by leonardmccoy 2018-08-20 2:56 AM
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-20 6:12 AM (#544968 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Hi all. I appreciate everyone's input. I do know what high or unleveled frets are and how they can cause buzzing or even note muting. I took my Ovation to a luthier and he says that the pickup is fine, but that the neck has a dead spot that is centered right on the G fret but also affects the D# and G# somewhat. According to him, not much can be done about it.
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-20 8:28 AM (#544970 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

BTW, I'm just posting this info for posterity's sake. The luthier said that the dead note could *possibly* be fixed by adding some mass to the headstock, by installing a new nut, by covering up one of more of the soundholes, by shaving the bridge slightly, or by shaving the internal braces slightly. In other words, there are a number of things that *might* fix or diminish the problem, but with no guarantees. It would be trial and error and, obviously, a monetary investment to try to eliminate or reduce the problem. To me, the guitar is not worth it, so it goes back to the store. It's a shame. Such a nice looking and playing guitar, but almost no low G.
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2018-08-20 6:13 PM (#544972 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 486

Location: moline,illinois
Food for thought here,US Ovations are getting harder to find so depending on how long you have to return it you could post some questions about the guitars problems in the BFLG section where the guys who work on there own ovations hang out and somebody might have a solution us players haven't thought of.

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arumako
Posted 2018-08-20 11:04 PM (#544975 - in reply to #544968)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 867

Location: Yokohama, Japan
trekker - 2018-08-19 8:12 PM

According to him, not much can be done about it.

Don't believe it! That's what all luthiers and repair folks say about Ovations in Japan, because most of them don't know what they are dealing with (the adhesives scare us) and are afraid they might damage the guitar. It's just easier to refuse repairs on Os.

trekker - 2018-08-19 10:28 PM

The luthier said that the dead note could *possibly* be fixed by adding some mass to the headstock, by installing a new nut, by covering up one of more of the soundholes, by shaving the bridge slightly, or by shaving the internal braces slightly...

It would be trial and error and, obviously, a monetary investment to try to eliminate or reduce the problem. To me, the guitar is not worth it, so it goes back to the store. It's a shame. Such a nice looking and playing guitar, but almost no low G.

Maybe the nut or shaving the bridge (he must mean "saddle")...I might be wrong, but IMHO, the "adding mass to the headstock", "covering the soundhole" or "shaving the braces" solutions are drastic and totally unnecessary. Did you ask him if he's worked on Os before? I know most of us don't have the luxury to live by luthiers who do have that experience (that's why I work on my own), but IMO it's worth asking...

2wheeldrummer has a great point. Pre-DW and pre-Fender Os are getting harder and harder to come by. If this one sounds great acoustically; it would no doubt sound awesome electrically. Wouldn't take a whole lot to fix it. Probably a saddle and/or saddle slot repair and a slight nut adjustment. Man, if I lived nearby, I'd come and do it for NC!

In either case, good luck. Sure hope things work out forya!

Edited by arumako 2018-08-20 11:09 PM
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arumako
Posted 2018-08-21 2:28 AM (#544977 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: RE: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 867

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Oh yeah...I forgot to share this video. It really shows how easy it is to check the bridge saddle slot for shims. You may not need to change shims trekker; but this video might prove helpful?

here's a link, just in case embedding doesn't work again...

https://youtu.be/JepfhqFXB-8

Cheers!

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Love O Fair
Posted 2018-08-21 3:49 AM (#544979 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1127

Location: What week?
Ya got me-- what, exactly, does "adding mass to the headstock" mean??
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-21 5:58 AM (#544980 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Love O Fair, the luthier said that there is some kind of brass plate that can be attached to the headstock (it must be small) that somehow changes the resonant frequency of the guitar. I don't know. My forte is electronics, not woodworking or luthier-stuff.

Though I'm new to Ovations, yes, I'd agree that a good used USA model is hard to come by at a good price. And this luthier said that he has worked on Ovations. He just wanted to let me know that the problem is not an "easy fix" and might take some time to correct, if it is correctable. Translate: time = money. He did put some paper in the E nut slot to see if that would help, raising the nut depth. Nope. Didn't help. Darn. Ya know, any other note than G. How much money is this Standard Elite 6868 worth? I paid $325 out the door. But I don't know whether or not it will be a money pit trying to fix this problem. As I've said, I've got a nice 2004 Seagull S6 acoustic and a 2016 Godin solid body P90. Every note plays and rings and sustains on these two guitars. I've got an Ibanez SR800 bass. Every note plays and rings and sustains. I'm not trying to turn this into a b*tch session, but I'm just so disappointed with this 6868. If it was just the action a bit too high or the neck relief needing adjustment, well, fairly easy fix. But these 3 dead notes centered around low G. Darn.

BTW, I went over to Acoustic Guitar forum and the consensus there was, "If you have a guitar with this problem, sell it." Yeah, I know, they are not Ovation. But it sure makes it sound as if this is a death knell for my 6868. *Crying in my beer*



Edited by trekker 2018-08-21 5:59 AM
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jay
Posted 2018-08-21 9:00 AM (#544982 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1226

Location: Texas

Trekker, if it is truly a dead spot in the neck, just a little reading will explain the problem and a couple of things folks have tried to do to get around it, with varying degrees of success and failure...but it appears that most solutions only compromise another spot. Had a friend with this problem...the neck resonates at the same frequency of the note that you have mentioned...a noticable resonance killer after the note is hit. He could press his guitar head on a table and BAM...problem solved (but i could swear the table was what was resonating). Drove him crazy. He couldn't wait to sell it. If you are the slight bit OCD, it will drive you crazy. Owning a guitar comes with some degree of being OCD. I am with you. Return it. Right now, it appears that a lot of very decent Ovations in great shape are sitting in Guitar centers around the country for very reasonable "asking" prices. Be patient, there were a lot of Elites made...you will find one to play that you will love. Ovation was the most popular acoustic for a long time. There is a great secondary market out there with some killer American made Ovations.



Edited by jay 2018-08-21 9:02 AM
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Love O Fair
Posted 2018-08-21 1:19 PM (#544984 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1127

Location: What week?
Trekker.. thanks for the reply. Now the data makes sense. New lessons learned on this frontier. Sorry to hear your disappointment. I agree with Jay. Don't let it cling on you. Transport it back to the store. You seem to be an enterprising person who can explore a better deal.

PS::
>>>I've got an Ibanez SR800 bass<<<
Me too. Same model. By far the heaviest guitar I've ever owned. I have to play it sitting down since the standing strap weight after only a few minutes tweaks my bones.

Edited by Love O Fair 2018-08-21 1:48 PM
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Love O Fair
Posted 2018-08-21 5:18 PM (#544985 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
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Posts: 1127

Location: What week?
Me again. This whole thread has been stuck in my mind today. Strange stuff. A total case of-- what in the????

So here's one. Very unlikely the culprit, but just a thought from my mush of grey. With what you said about the luthier's idea of a strategically placed plate on the headstock, and what Jay said bout his friend's experience of grounding out the head on a table, it seems as if the vibration energy could be being "forced" in that direction. But since it is only happening on that one string, in that one neck zone-- picture this: Suppose, just suppose, that there is one, nature-freaky-isolated little wood grain inside with a completely different density from the surrounding wood, and it originates on the neck at that exact spot and runs upward to the tip of the headstock, and is somehow capturing that particular wave frequency before it reaches the wood surrounding it.. and transmitting it up the thread of only that particular grain's structure, through the neck and out the headstock. Not allowing it to transfer any other direction toward any other part of the guitar that resonates. The plate on the headstock would somehow stop it and 'somewhat' push it back the other direction through the surrounding wood. Or in the case of Jay's friend without the plate, it just keeps on going out the headstock (to the table).

In other words... Son, ya got a knot hole in your neck. Or maybe more like a small branch hidden inside a larger branch. Not detectable by the manufacture's inspection. Trippy nature. it happens common every winter in the forest.. but only manifests at a 1-in-734,802 occurrence in guitar world.

I know, I know.. retirement makes people sit around the house all day and think stuff up for free that they got paid to think up in their career. Can't stop. Sorry. Probably a far-off-target diagnosis. But there.

Edited by Love O Fair 2018-08-21 5:39 PM
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-21 6:34 PM (#544987 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Satified...for now.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input/advice on my 6868 problem. Coupled with the luthier's prognosis of, "Well, let's experiment to see *if* we can get it to go away" and other advice to return the guitar, I opted for what I believe is the cheaper and better route for me for now and returned the guitar to the store. The tech at the store agreed that is what a "real problem" and said that it should have never been sold. Without being an a'hole, I gave him an earful about my nightmares with it. Yes, I could return it. But no one was going to pay for my gas to drive 60 miles to get it, for the 2 sets of strings I bought so it, and the general aggravation I've experienced with it.

To make a long story short, the store made me a great deal on a CK047 and overnighted it to me. Yes, I can hear some of you sniggering already. Celebrity? Korean-made? Bwah ha ha! But I'll tell you what, all the notes ring. Great action. Great neck angle. Perfect intonation. Came with an Ovation case. Cheap enough that I'll definitely get my money back out of it when I've saved up enough for a nice used Adamas.

It'll do. Pretty Koa top. Laminate, I assume. And they threw in new strings for it. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for another New Hartford Ovation, but this Celebrity will take care of my OCD Ovation-itch for now.

Thanks again, all!
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2018-08-21 7:40 PM (#544988 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 486

Location: moline,illinois
Congrats on finding something that makes you happy,if you only had the 6868 for a few days its not like it has become your favorite guitar.
Saving money towards an Adamas now your on the "Trek" most of us have journeyed,we'll have to check back in 5 years and see how far your Ovation Addiction takes you LOL

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arumako
Posted 2018-08-21 9:03 PM (#544989 - in reply to #544985)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
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Posts: 867

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Love O Fair - 2018-08-21 7:18 AM
In other words... Son, ya got a knot hole in your neck. Or maybe more like a small branch hidden inside a larger branch. Not detectable by the manufacture's inspection. Trippy nature. it happens common every winter in the forest.. but only manifests at a 1-in-734,802 occurrence in guitar world.

LOL! Where did you get that 1-in-734,802 figure from! Actually, my CC247-GS had a strange dull spot in the sound board (laminated spruce). Fortunately, it was repairable by shaving 3 braces under the dead-spot. However, a dead-spot in the neck due to inconsistent wood density? That would be irreparable unless the whole neck was changed out. Ouch!

trekker - 2018-08-21 8:34 AM
Satified...for now.

To make a long story short, the store made me a great deal on a CK047 and overnighted it to me.

Congratulations trekker! Sounds like a good solution. With the luthier being O saavy, you'd have to go with his assessment. As a BFLG'er my interest is always skewed toward salvaging Os (sorry!), but if Al and jays's "rare but possible" scenarios are true, the 6868 could've turned into a money drainer forya. Glad you found a great compromise. Let us know your thoughts on the CK047 after you twiddle around with it for a while. You're sure to find a great New Hartford O companion in the future!
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2018-08-21 9:17 PM (#544990 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
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Posts: 10396

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
I had a CK-047. I actually had Two of them.
They were nice guitars.
I wish that I had kept one.




(DSC00508.jpg)



(DSC00512.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DSC00508.jpg (75KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments DSC00512.jpg (75KB - 2 downloads)
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Love O Fair
Posted 2018-08-21 9:37 PM (#544992 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
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Posts: 1127

Location: What week?
@Arumako - >>>LOL! Where did you get that 1-in-734,802 figure from!<<<

From a very sophisticated source. That's all I can say. If I tell you more I'd have to kill you.

@Trekker - >>>I can hear some of you sniggering already. Celebrity? Korean-made? Bwah ha ha!<<<

Not from me. There's a Korean CC-013 in my stable that I play every day and enjoy very much. And take a look at Arumako's list as well. I think ya done good for now. Keep your eyes on that future Adamas and it will probably land in your lap sooner than later. Check out LostArtVintage.com for the best deals and service.. and guaranteed no dead frets.
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-21 9:46 PM (#544993 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Nice pics on those CK-047s, Old Man Arthur. Do you have larger size pics?

I know the Celebritys are Asian-made guitars with Ovation names on them, probably not collectible at all. But I think that they can be a good "bang for the buck" guitar if a good deal is found. I put new strings on mine tonight. The action is right where Ovation specs it, which is right where I like it. The neck relief is quite low, but I have no buzzing anywhere on the neck (thankfully) so I'm not going to raise it. Just like the 6868, the neck angle comes in about 1/32" below the top of the bridge. Intonation is on. All notes ring. She cleaned up nice. Most important, she is comfortable to play and sounds good for what it is. The only problem that it has, and it is quite minor, is that the sliding controls on the OP20 preamp are a bit noisy, a bit of static when moved. I will probably try some Deoxit on them and see if I can get them to clean up. Other than that, she is showroom. Inside the case was the truss rod allen wrench, the original owner's manual, inspection sticker for the case, and the string tag (D'Addarios).

Arumako, if you're interested, I can tell you where to find that 6868 (PM me), but it might cost a bit to get it to Japan. It is currently mislabeled by the store as a CS247 (but it is not).
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-22 5:07 AM (#544995 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

Thanks for the link, Love O Fair. I'm drooling already!

I'm not an "Ovation-Only" kind of guy, nor am I an "USA-Only" kind of guy. As I said, I have a Seagull S6 and a nice Godin Empire that is their version of a Les Paul. Both are Canadian-made and great guitars for the money. I wish the 6868 had worked out, but it had to be right, ya know? We guitar players are OCD about our instruments. If it doesn't sound quite right, then we become jazz guitar players. Ha ha!

My Celebrity is my "beater guitar". Not that I will abuse it, I treat my instruments well. But having a laminate top (unlike my solid cedar S6), I won't hesitate to take it out in public or worry that it is "irreplaceable". The Chinese-made Celebritys (generally) don't get very good reviews: bad tuners, finish flaws, sharp frets, etc. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one, but I would have to actually sit and play it, make sure it is okay. For me, the Korean Celebritys fit that niche between a beginner guitar and forking out the bucks for a USA-made Ovation that, from my financial viewpoint, would sort of need to pay for itself. Nevertheless, yes, I will be looking for a good deal on an upper tier USA-made Ovation and hope that it plays and sounds as good as my Celebrity. Ha ha!
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trekker
Posted 2018-08-22 5:50 AM (#544996 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: RE: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
April 2017
Posts: 40

All restrung and polished up:



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Love O Fair
Posted 2018-08-22 10:26 AM (#545002 - in reply to #544950)
Subject: Re: OCP-1K Pickup Problem



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1127

Location: What week?
Congratulations. Looking good :-)
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