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Location: Richmond, VA | I'm a long time Ovation fan, got a Balladeer in '72 and have always really liked the way it sounds. I recently got an early '72 Legend and have been disappointed with its lack of bass. Upon reading about it. it seems my opinion is widely shared.
Here's my question, has anyone worked over the VT-11 bracing to improve bass response? What I'm contemplating is trimming, lightening, the heavy main braces, especially the one running down the bass side to allow the face to vibrate more and produce an increased bass response.
That works with other guitars, for example, the difference in response between Martin D-28s and HD-28s with lighter, less rigid bracing.
The Legend is headed into the luthier for some cosmetic stuff, should I ask him to take a finger plane to the big braces too?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-17 2:03 PM
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Location: When?? | Have you experimented with various string sets and string combinations to improve bass? If not, then perhaps consider it before making a drastic and permanent change to the bracing. I say so because I was having the same bland bass perception with a 1627 GC Artist, and when I put on some Curt Mangan round core strings of just one notch higher thickness on the E, A and D the whole world changed for the better.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-17 6:31 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Interesting thought, I'm using both 92/8 phosphor bronze and 80/20s that have given me very good results on a variety of guitars. Both are medium gauge (13-56).
When you went to heavier gauge E,A and D strings did you go to heavy gauge, or were you moving from lights to mediums? If you were moving up from lights then I've been using the heavier gauge bass strings already.
Thanks for your response. Why I posted here is because I am interested in hearing from folks with wider Ovation experience than I have.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-17 8:17 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>I've been using the heavier gauge bass strings<<<
The ones I switched to were the 13-56 (or there abouts), so I guess my method wouldn't be the case with your '72 Legend since you've already tried that. However, the new ones I put on were round core instead of hex core, so I'm not certain if that aspect could have had anything to do with such a marked difference. Probably not to any great degree.. though it was the first time I have used round cores since the 1970's and may have just forgotten the difference; hence, I am soon to place new set of same onto a 2000 Balladeer 1771 that has always sounded sappy bland, and I will be interested to see if it helps that one like it did the 1627. Which brings us back to merely different guitars reacting to different things. I"m surprised that the top wood on that old "72 hasn't aged to the point where the bass is rumbling nicely, but if different strings don't cut it then your brace trim idea may in fact be the best solution. I have never done that, so hopefully someone here will chime in on their own experience with it. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | In the FWIW department. I'm using D'Addario PBs and Martin 80/20s. Both I believe are round cores, and medium gauge. Older instruments seem to like the 80/20s better. They're probably more like what was around when the instruments were new and what guitar makers were listening to when they were working on tone,
The Legend sounds good in the mids and trebles, I like that. It falls off as it gets down to the bass, the bottom E especially. Not only is that audible to me, but it is especially true when side by side with the Balladeer of the same vintage. Their serial numbers are less than 1,000 apart and in the low 4 digits so they've had the same amount of time to open up, and at 50+ years old they've had enough time to grow up.
When I found I was not very happy with the Legend I started reading, and to my surprise found there was considerable opinion that was consistent with mine. That may also explain why Ebay seems to have a lot of '70s Legends and not so many from the '80s and newer after they changed to A bracing.
In the other forum I hang out on, UMGF (Martin), there is considerable talk about bracing, what it does, and the effect of changes, like scalloping.. With the common panning of VT-11 I was sort of hoping I'd find some of the same chatter here. and that folks would long ago have settled on what the common wisdom was on bracing adjustments.
What I was thinking about was pretty simple, knocking the top corners off the two heavy braces to both remove some mass and to make them a little less stiff so they vibrate more freely, and lower the frequency they like a little. On Martins (and Ovation LX) they do that by scalloping the braces, sometimes they are also taper the top edges. All I am thinking about is tapering the top edges. The smaller braces that butt up against the larger braces make scalloping a little harder and make me a little anxious about adding scallops where the bracing joins.
It surprises me a little that there is apparently not much history of Ovation folks fiddling with the braces on a bracing pattern with a long standing poor rep for bass response. Again, thanks for your response.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 8:14 AM
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Based on the no-trapdoor design, shaving the braces with a finger plane would require pretty nimble fingers & wrist flexibility, reaching through the soundhole. I may be mistaken, though, in my estimation of this being a 1617 or 1117 model. Anyrate, go first where you can go easiest. Maybe, drop the tuning a half-step, with heavier bass strings would do the trick- dunno. | |
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Location: Utah | Around here the general comment is Ovation models are different flavors of ice cream - some you will like and others will be liked by other people.
Medium strings are not commonly used on Ovations. I expect by changing the gauges you would change the balance. Maybe try light tops and medium bottoms?
How is the break angle at the nut and saddle?
The finish on some eras of Ovation was thick. Perhaps taking it down thinner would help. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Hi guys, thanks for the responses. Couple of thoughts. First, scalloping and other trimming of braces is commonly done through the sound hole, so I don't believe that's a barrier, even if it takes a small knife or chisel. Yes, you're right, it is a 1117, and the Balladeer is a 1111. I'm reluctant to tune down and use heavier bass strings. FWIW. I've happily used medium strings on the Balladeer for 50 years without a problem. They sound great and project well. Although it's frowned on, I've used it picking Bluegrass. It holds its own and can keep a Mastertone in line. The sound out of that guitar is what got it off the wall in the music store and home with me all those years ago.
In general we get sound out of a guitar by driving the top, and medium strings drive harder than lights. Break angle at the saddle is good, same as the Balladeer, at the nut it is what it is, and again the headstock angle is the same as on the Balladeer. Yes, the finish is thick, also as it is on the Balladeer. The heavy poly finish has surprised me on Ovations, other brands tend to favor thin nitro finishes. But, my old Balladeer has that finish too and it sounds great, so that's not a variable that I can hear makes a difference. That makes me reluctant to go after the finish. Although finish is more easily accessible than braces that seems a bigger job than trimming braces.
Your ice cream analogy is a good one and borne out in postings. What surprised me a little was that there seems to be little interest in fiddling with the flavors. Again with other brands there's an interest in taking flavors that are not well liked by some and tweaking them to brighten up the taste, The use of technology was one of the things that attracted me to Ovation in the first place, I have little doubt that someone there liked the way the VT-11 bracing sounded and it hit sound measuring goals they liked. Otherwise it would not have seen the light of day, especially on a guitar that was the top of the line at the time, and more expensive than the Deluxe Balladeer it grew out of.
The initial sound tests at Ovation were done on a pre war Martin D-45, a monster of a model and very high standard to measure by. Fewer than 100 of those were made and incredibly they trade for close to half a million bucks these days. My Balladeer picks up a lot of those sound qualities along with the focus and projection Ovation got out of the unobstructed by braces parabolic deep bowl. The drop off in the bass on the Legend seems likely an intentional departure from that original sound model.
Several years ago there was a wonderful post here on an Ovation that was rebuilt. He used a torrified top and changed the bracing pattern for the new top. It apparently sounded great, but that's an awful lot of work. I'm thinking of something far more modest with hopefully good sonic results. I want to keep the lively mids and highs and just extend that presence to the bass strings, mostly the bottom E.
I could just hang with the old guitar I like, and put the Legend back up on Ebay, but it's a nice guitar and a pretty sunburst and I'd like to tweak the sound so I liked playing it too. If something as simple as trimming a brace would do it that is a small price to pay. Ovation made high quality guitars, on a par with Martin and better than Gibson so I'd like to hang onto this one.
Thanks for y'alls responses.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 1:00 PM
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Location: Utah | Have you listened to that guitar while someone else plays it? Ovations, more than wood boxes, sound different to the player vs the audience. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | I have not. But I am comparing the sound to a Balladeer I have had for a long time, that I know what it sounds like and that I like the sound of very much. I started reading here on OFC after finding myself underwhelmed by the bass response of the Legend, To my surprise there is considerable opinion here spread over years that is consistent with my hearing of the sound. So I don't think it is just me not hearing what the guitar is producing.
All factory made guitars depend on having their materials match the specs. Factories generally do not tune or tap test tops and/or thin them or trim braces to tune top response. Ovation has a leg up in that the bowls are remarkably uniform. That leaves tops to vary, and they all do to some extent. That's why all guitars sound different. It may be that this top varied in stiffness or density from the spec and prototype instruments, and that is why it sounds like it does. If so there are a bunch of Legends out here that also vary. What that may tell us is that VT-11 bracing is less tolerant of top wood variance than X bracing. That also goes to why I am asking about others experience in trimming braces to change a Legend's response.
You are right, guitars can sound very different from behind and from the front. The Ovation bowl makes it easy, some think too easy , to tip up so you hear more of the sound coming out of the sound hole while playing.
During covid I had to quit gigging and spent considerable time playing on line with folks on Jamulus. That spoiled me because I was hearing my guitars through a good mic and headphones. They all sounded better than they do from behind when playing.
Thanks for your response.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 5:59 PM
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Location: SoCal | Interesting subject Lefty. I had a 1978 Legend with the VT bracing. Maybe the worst sounding guitar ever. No bass, ok mids and treble. The solution is to got an A braced Legend built after 1981. Solves every issue.
Now having said that, I never considered shaving the braces. I'm curious as to how that will work and want to hear more. Along with positng here, post this thread on the facebook Ren-Ovation group board. They would really love to watch this process. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Thanks for the response. I sure would not call mine the worst sound ever, but the bass response is certainly not something that I'd write home about. Enough so that I'm looking at surgery to make it better.
I've a long standing aversion to Facebook, so am not likely to post there, although that sounds interesting. I may head over to Acoustic Guitar Forum, it looks like there may be more luthier types hanging out there. I'm a little surprised there are not some here. Curious. There's multiple long threads about bracing on the Martin forum and some really good luthiers, but they're not big Ovation fans.
I've got very little in the guitar so I'm likely to knock the top edges off the large braces to remove some mass and maybe make the top a little more flexible or resonate at a slightly lower frequency just to see what that does. It's not likely to hurt much and it would not take a lot of change to transform the guitar. I do like the mids and treble. It is really pretty nice until it comes down and goes thunk on the bottom string.
Anyone know what the VT stands for in the bracing nomenclature? V Transverse is about all I could come up with. | |
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Location: SoCal | Very Terrible? Don't know if this will work for you but here's a link to Ren-Ovation on facebook. It really is where you want to go.....
https://www.facebook.com/groups/430219338904914 | |
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Location: When?? | Like I really know what I'm talking about here (not), but what would happen if you were to scallop them yourself. Say a piece of 1/2" dowel with sandpaper around it.. or even a round file of appropriate size that will fit in the space and angle.. and just sand perpendicular across the length of the brace. Maybe go 1/8" (or so) deep at a time at whatever locations you deem fit, then string it up and see if that helps. If not, go another 1/8th, and so on. Irreversible, I know. But that's about all I know. It's just something that I have pictured in mind as a possibility to remove mass in what may be the more applicable spots to suit your motive of brace flexibility instead of shaving all the way along the length.
PS: There are, in fact, some very capable luthiers here on the OFC who are tremendously Ovation savvy, but they seem to be pretty quiet lately.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-22 6:23 AM
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Location: Utah | The original question is interesting - why don't O/A owners mod their guitars?
Maybe because, until recently, buyers played a guitar before choosing it. So the buyer liked it well enough already, and thus wouldn't want to change it. Maybe because of the materials, acoustic engineering, and manufacturing methods we don't feel we are likely to improve it. Maybe because historically O/A were more advanced than old fashioned wood boxes, to include electronics.
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Location: Richmond, VA | Hi guys, thanks for the responses.
I've been thinking about just knocking the edges off the braces rather than actually scalloping them. In that way both reducing mass, making them a little less stiff and lowering the resonant frequency of the top. FWIW taller thinner braces is the way Gibson did them for years, so I'm thinking about heading more in that direction rather than like Martin and Taylor when they scallop. I'm also a little anxious about how far I could safely scallop those already not very tall main braces. I'll be talking to a good luthier I work with, He's also a builder and I respect him. His judgement will be in the drivers seat since he will be doing the work, if any. I will pass along what he thinks, and hopefully eventually a much expanded VT-11 sound.
I hear you on not buying any guitar you don't like the sound of, and that's generally been my standard over the years. I've got a Balladeer I bought in '72 because it sounded so good it jumped off the wall into my arms. I got this Legend off Ebay because it was in excellent condition, the serial number was very close to my guitar and it seemed the model was more a renamed Deluxe Balladeer than significantly changed. The Balladeer has X bracing. Silly me, but now I'm interested in the challenge of helping the Legend live up to its heritage.
I'd also like to know what the folks at Ovation heard in VT-11 bracing that they liked better than X bracing. Anyone know any of that history? They perked up the mids and trebles for Glenn Campbell by creating the slightly shallower Artist bowl. But I don't understand what inspired them to make an even bigger change in the sound of deep bowl guitars. Curious.
There is a lot of interest on the Martin site about adjusting bracing to make guitars sound better, and arguably most of them sound pretty good to begin with. So I don't think it's because they all sound so good from the get go that nobody wants to fool with them. Long ago I was impressed by the extensive audio testing Ovation did. as well as their modern manufacturing. I still am, the quality is as good or better than any, and the necks may be the nicest I have ever played. The results in my old Balladeer convinced me that they were on the right track, also that they had a vintage Martin they used as the model and standard when testing. The Ovations I have are pre electronic and I have not had much interest in later instruments although I appreciate, and lived through, the revolution they brought to acoustic electric. I'm personally of the opinion that a mic'd guitar will always sound better than one with a pickup so learned how to run PA and have gigged using a mic on a good sounding acoustic guitar. If I wanted to use a pickup, it would not matter much what it was, a piezo is pretty much a piezo no matter who makes it.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-22 7:21 PM
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Location: When?? | It will be interesting to hear what your luthier suggests. Also interesting that the sides of the braces being tall (per your Gibson example) instead of more flat would increase the response. I would think just the opposite since the vibration is lateral across the sound board, hence more flex if the profile of the brace is lower. Could be that a loss of structure support was more along the priority lines of Gibson's thinking on that rather than tonal.. but.. then again.. I am not a guitar builder or a physics expert.
And I fully agree with you guys about the purchase mode of any instrument. I recall the olden days of making many trips to music stores when intent on purchasing.. as well as the extended pondering that came with it, sometimes for weeks-- prospecting that something new may come along in the meantime.. yet also hoping that someone else didn't buy your leading choice before you got back to settling on it. Back when a town with a population of 40,000 had three or more music stores staffed by people you knew personally, and a prudent buyer wouldn't even consider something as abstract as a mail order (eBay-type) purchase unless it was maybe a basic beginner model for your kid. Glory days, 'eh?
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-22 9:38 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Went over to Ren Ovation on Facebook to look around. Lots of stuff, but not much Ovation. Sorta disappointing. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | FWIW. The taller thinner braces were Gibson's choice up until around '54 when they began to look much more like Martin and others. Dunno why they made those choices in the first place or why they changed. Some of those old AJs and J35/45s sound pretty good though.
I'm neither a builder or an expert either. I am at this point really curious about the VT-11 bracing. The Legend cost a hundred bucks more than the Balladeer back then so there must have been something driving the change in bracing for the top of the line guitar. It was not casual or to make it sound worse. It is interesting that they switched mostly to A bracing as they got into the '80s. I've got one of those, it's another story entirely, and I like it as much as my old Balladeer, so somebody's taste in sound changed significantly. The similar great sound of those two guitars is why I took the flier on the Legend, it seemed likely it would sound similar to the others I bought because of how they sounded. Nope, silly me. Live and learn. That's also why I started learning about Ovation bracing patterns.
Glory Days indeed. I remember vintage D-18/28s trading out of trunks and pickups at festivals for $200-$300 and back then they were just stinky beat up old Martins. Everybody wanted a shiny new D-28, but most of us couldn't afford them. I did get a pawn shop D-18 back then which was what I could afford. 50+ years later I'm still playing it.There were a few years I alternated between it and the Balladeer. Gigging in the '70s Ovations had more cachet than they do today. The Balladeer doesn't go out much anymore, but it still can hold its own in a Bluegrass jam. It's also fun to take it to an Old Time jam and watch folks recoil. At 50+ it's older than a lot of instruments out there.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-22 11:14 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Just played another Legend, this one a '78 that is acoustic electric. Unplugged it has better balance than my acoustic one. The acoustic electric, 1617, sounds more like my old Balladeer. Is it possible Ovation engineered the VT-11 bracing for the becoming hugely popular acoustic electric instruments, and the sound of the becoming less popular strictly acoustic Legend 1117 was just collateral damage? Tweaking the bracing to compensate for the new under saddle piezo transducer seems like something engineers would do. The Legend would have been the first instrument designed specifically with under saddle pickup in mind. They might have assembled all the tops in one process and decided later in production which ones were going to be electric, and which ones strictly acoustic with production mix shifting more and more to acoustic electric over time. Curious, and a little surprising.
The '71 price list shows both acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers and Artists. The '72 catalog shows those and both flavors of Legends. The rocket ship was lifting off.
Anyone have any idea about differences in sound between early acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers with X bracing?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-23 6:41 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>Is it possible Ovation engineered the VT-11 bracing for the becoming hugely popular acoustic electric instruments, and the sound of the becoming less popular strictly acoustic Legend 1117 was just collateral damage?<<<
If I were standing at a casino sports book counter to make a bet on it, that would be the one I'd make. At least until further is learned.
>>>Anyone have any idea about differences in sound between early acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers with X bracing?<<<
I have a 1981 Custom Balladeer (1112-1 acoustic-only) that I bought new back in those good ol' music store days and it thunders so loud and rich across all tones that it rattles dishes and cracks plaster; however, I am not certain at the moment what the brace pattern is. "A", I think, but I would have to look it up for sure. Its aged top wood has has also helped to increased the rumble over the years. I also have a 1968 Deluxe Balladeer shiny bowl which I know for certain is an "X" brace (so old the braces have lightly ghosted through the sunburst finish), and it rumbles the same dishes and plaster.. almost.. as much as the 1981 does. But since both are acoustic only they cannot be compared to the first scenario above. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Me too and it is certainly a good answer to the question I posed above, why VT-11 when X arguably (at least in my experience) gives remarkably good results. The hazard to dishes and plaster is what got that Balladeer off the wall at the music store with me back then too. I don't remember what the other Ovations were, there were a half dozen or so, it's a long time ago. That Balladeer stuck way way out from the rest and it was the least expensive. I remember thinking this is funny, I like the sound of this one by far the best and it's the cheapest of the bunch. A 180 bucks with tax and a set of strings brought it home.
I'm just wondering what adding pickups did to X braced Balladeers. If they became less phenomenal acoustically when pickups were added it would add strength to the proposition that VT-11 was developed to retain acoustic quality in acoustic electric versions. The acoustic electric revolution was spectacular and Ovation must have thought they'd arrived in Heaven.
In the '72 catalog the Balladeer was $265, the Legend $365 and the Electric Legend $504. That's a hundred bucks premium for the diamonds in the neck, and close to twice the price for the Electric Legend over the poor old Balladeer. In addition to the addition of Legend acoustic electrics there were electric versions of the other guitars they were making too. But it looks like the Legend was the only new for '72 model. As an idea how spectacular it was is that for most of the '70s Ovation outsold Martin 2 or 3 to 1, and the Electric Legend listed for more than a D-28. Heady times.
It looks like around '80 they developed A bracing that seems to work well with both acoustic and electric models, so that replaced the earlier bracing models and the story ends. At least it pauses for about the next 25 years until they readopted (scalloped) LX bracing. Then of course there was that Adamas/Elite bracing excursion starting also around '80.
'72 Ovation price list. http://ovationtribute.com/Catalogues/1972%20US%20Price%20List/1972%...
This stuff is sort of fun. Thanks for playing with me.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-24 1:03 AM
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Location: SoCal | Lefty665 - 2023-09-22 8:37 PM
Went over to Ren Ovation on Facebook to look around. Lots of stuff, but not much Ovation. Sorta disappointing.
Interesting that you say that as it's a site devoted to Ovation repair and what you are doing would be very very interesting to most of the folks there.
I never understood the attraction of the VT bracing pattern. My first O was an acoustic only Artist (1972) and my second, 78 Legend 1117. They sounded HORRIBLE, but I really wanted to play Ovations.
In 2004, with the LX models, Ovation went to mid bowls and X bracing. Good guitars but not guitars I'd play next to a good Martin or Gibson. This year, Ovation came out with 2 USA built guitars, A Legend and an Elite, both deep bowl and with A and Quintad bracing respectively. Obviously they are going for serious acoustic sound. I like this as the 2 guitars next to me are, both from 1983, a 1537 and a 1117 (Legend). Quintad and A braced, deep bowls. And I have played both next toi Martins and Gibsons and not felt under gunned.
Now to get Ovation to build them with torrified tops and braces...... | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | If my recollection is correct (I was a teenager) the genesis of the different VT bracings was to differentiate the sound of the various models. Ovation didn't have the freedom of different body sizes (dread, jumbo, om, etc.) that other builder had, so basically in the early days all models were the same thing with just different levels of ornamentation i.e. inlays, gold tuners, bound neck, etc. The idea of the various VT bracings was to give each model a different "voice". Some of the voices were good and some were poor. All just part of the evolution. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Moody, maybe I just hit them on an off evening, but there were about 3 or 4 to 1 non Ovation to Ovation postings. They were food, remodeling and other stuff not Ovation.
The Custom Elite LX I recently played sounded pretty good, the sound was distinctly Ovation, it projected well and played well with the group. The electronic FX were a pleasant surprise, much like Fishman's Aura, an acoustic image that gets blended with the signal coming out of the pickup. Guess that's not surprising considering that Aura was Fishman's response when they figured out that all piezo signals suck and that they're all the same. Unplugged it certainly sounded more like my old Balladeer than the VT-11 Legend I've been grumbling about. I liked it. Funny that they've come back to X bracing, and with scallops and a bridge plate. Curious. That contour bowl is fairly deep, although it has lost its parabola. It is comfortable. Guess there's no free lunch, and too much lunch may have caused some of the interference between deep bowls and stomachs.
I've got a newer A braced artist bowl (GC) that sounds very much like my old X braced Balladeer, good bass but a little brighter mids and trebles. Seemingly just what Campbell was looking for to stand out. It and the Balladeer play wonderfully together and both stand up well to other guitars. Fiddle tunes with one playing lead and the other rhythm are a joy. While not widely publicized Tony Rice played an Ovation on the lead cut on his Manzanita CD, as well as on several other cuts on that album. So much for old 58957. I'd place them as better than most Gibsons and approaching, but a different sound than most Martins, although I confess I'm spoiled by the sound of old Martins. Other guitars have a tough job where they're concerned.
Thought I read that towards the end Ovation did a run of about 50 with torrified red spruce tops. They were touted as Bluegrass guitars. Too bad you can't torrify bowls too. Take that Ovation back to 1937 and have Kaman tell Sikorsky he can keep his helicopters, the future is guitars | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Standing, that makes sense, although I'm not sure why they would not have been able to do other size/shape bowls. I have seen a picture of a parlor guitar sized prototype.
I have also seen somewhere a listing of bracing patterns and model numbers, I think it was from French marketing materials, but it did not say when the bracing patterns were introduced. So bracing certainly was a variable they could play with, and the Legend debuted with VT-11. I presume the Deluxe Balladeer it grew out of had X bracing. That certainly argues for bracing as a model differentiation. I also found an old Electric Legend with VT-11 bracing that sounded better unplugged than the Legend I've been grumbling about. That has made me wonder if VT-11 was engineered to give better unplugged sound in Legends with the under saddle pickup.
Wish there was someone still around who knew the engineering history, because I'm sure all this stuff was engineered, none of it just happened. | |
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Location: Utah | Yes, they made a parlor. I have the 1997 Collector's edition, and they made a nearly identical non-collector's version. It is an excellent guitar, sounding much better than it should. They should bring it back, along with updated versions of the solid and semi-hollow electrics. I have a custom shop Adamas solid body with modern pickups and it can compete with anything else out there. | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Different depth bowls were no problem. But different sized bodies (ie soundboards) were. Yes, they made some Parlor guitars. They even made a few (as in 1-2) dreadnaught sized guitars but these were never put into production. I think Alpep may still have one. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Now an Ovation dread with red spruce, herringbone trim, scalloped X bracing and a contour bowl to fit (a Bubba Bowl) might just be a winner. I've sure had times at festivals I wished I'd had something less susceptible to the elements, but with a vintage bark. A pre war D-45 was the original guitar Ovation used for sound comparison testing. What should a guitar sound like? Break those old charts out and engineer up a Golden Era honker. Martin is getting big money for their Authentics these days. The difference between a D-28 and a D-45 is bling, and that is certainly something Ovation has experience with. I've also got a Custom Legend from the '90s that has as much abalone on it as a D-45, maybe more. Ovation could compete in that dread niche. Get folks like Molly Tuttle and Billy Strings to endorse them and have instruments that work both acoustically and plugged in for them. Recreate Ovations Golden Era.
ps, Why were different soundboards a problem?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-26 4:16 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Mold the top edge of the bowl on the lower bass bout in to knock off the sharp edge where your arm comes over (sort of like a strat), You'd have a lot of grateful players and a distinctive visual trademark. For playing comfort get yourself an Ovation Dreadbetter. Torrification, and or bowls molded from vintage helicopter blades (the equivalent of sinker mahogany) an upcharge We call this model Huey, and the parlor model Baby Huey. The model marketed for flat picking would have an enlarged soundhole (the Tony model) for enhanced mids and trebles, that vintage Martin sound with Ovation's volume, pop and presence, and on steroids with an Adamas carbon fiber sandwich top option on the Winfield Champion Flatpicking model. Talk about a reimagined line of guitars. Martin got the better part of a century out of dreads, now it's time for the next generation.... Ovation.
20 years ago Martin made some aluminum topped guitars with synthetic molded sides and backs. Chris said he didn't want his daughter going to a guitar show wearing a T shirt that said "My Daddy cut down the last tree". They sounded surprisingly good, but Martin's traditional fans hated them so they were quickly dropped.. Ovation might have more acceptance combined with a Lyrachord bowl back. An Ovation Alumination.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-26 5:46 PM
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Location: Utah | Ovation/Adamas have a unique problem in the market. They represent an older generation. Newer brands have concocted all manner of alternative ways to do things, such as a single sound port not in the middle. Never mind that Adamas and then the Ovation Elite had multiple holes first. Some brands have quite different headstocks which appear to simply be different for the sake of being different. The Ovation headstock relaxes the lateral bend the strings have to make from the nut to the tuner, especially the D and G strings, so it has a purpose.
Some of these newer brands have changed the body shape somewhat, especially in the area of the treble cutout. They have stylish bridge shapes. Again, seemingly just to look different.
Meanwhile, Ovation and Adamas retain the same shapes because they work. In the arena of young newcomers, say in the preteen through college age, appearance is overwhelmingly important. The guitar has to look cool, hip, modern. Not Grandpa's guitar. My teen daughter immediately chose the Red Flame Ovation 1778T on the wall at Guitar Center, and she was definitely an influencer on stage with numerous other high schoolers buying Ovations after seeing her perform. But that's an anomaly when most Ovations are "boring" finishes.
Some brands such as Martin get away with "classic" designs because they are so old. Like a '57 Chevy, classic is cool, unlike an '87 minivan which is anything but cool!
Many of Ovation's innovations are more under the hood than in your face. Neck construction. Neck to body attachment. Changes to the fiberglass bowl. The preamps and their features.
Ovation definitely failed in marketing from the Fender era. Beancounters more interested in ROI and Market Share have followed the cost cutting and off-shoring modern management theory. I think we are seeing some positive changes with some of the new models and online marketing recently with the new owners. If they'd get a few young popular performers playing some not-boring Ovations it would certainly help. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Seems like it could be a marketing opportunity for Ovation. We were not your grandpa's guitar company before your grandpa was your grandpa. We know how to do it!
Martin is peddling around 100k guitars in some recent years. That's a lot of instruments, and a majority of them are dreads. I outlined a line of dreads Ovation could sell into that market, and with a Not your grandpa's dread cachet. Some of the new makers are peddling carbon guitars that are two pieces snapped together. Ovation could have a piece of that low price market too with their previous experience using molded bowls with aluminum/poly necks as the starting point. Ovation's electronics have been good all along, that spins into more options for today too. Non traditional guitar making in a growing world wide market. Martin is pushing models at about every $100 point starting at around $500 using their Mexican plant for the lower end models. Ovation has provided multiple price points through off shore mfg for 50 years. It can do that as well as anyone else and better than some.
In all it seems like an opportunity for Ovation to capitalize on their history and have a resurgence in this wonderful world of the future.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-27 4:59 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>In all it seems like an opportunity for Ovation to capitalize on their history and have a resurgence in this wonderful world of the future.<<<
You'd think. But still waiting. And it's not like they would have to ditch their traditional, but merely to expand. The only case I recall was the square-edge body they developed a few years back, and that was the end of that (at least so far). | |
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Location: Utah | Imho, fwiw, ymmv....
Some products are mundane. Toothpaste, for example. Or garden hoses. If you're manufacturing toothpaste, you care about profit. The stockholders want high ROI. Managers track their market share to be sure they are not falling behind the competition. If the numbers aren't good enough, stockholders may switch to owning garden hose manufacturers.
But other products are very personal to the owner, who buys it with the intent to bond with it and keep it a long time. Musical instruments for example. Especially those above the cheap not-much-more-than-a-toy entry level instruments. Craftsmen put pride and effort into building the instrument. There is nothing logical about putting more human effort into making a finer instrument, nor is it a logical expenditure of the buyer's resources to acquire it. Profit, ROI, and market share are incidental to the enterprise.
Profit is very good but not the only measure of value to the world. Trying to flood the world with cheap crap so that one can claim slightly improved market share, or cutting quality to claim higher margins, only serve the money while ignoring the human factors.
Painting a guitar flashy colors while cutting corners on the build and compromising the tone seemed to be the strategy a few years ago. Cheapening the brand seems a bad long term strategy, but, well, Fender. The present owners look to be on a better path. I am hopeful.
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Location: Richmond, VA | FlySig. you say some interesting things, but your basic premises are sketchy.
"Profit, ROI, and market share are incidental to the enterprise" All manufactured products, whether tooth paste or good guitars must return enough income to support their continued manufacture or manufacture ceases. Manufacturers are in business to build things to make money. It is pretty simple, no sales, no money, no product. If you look at the churn in the musical instruments business over the years it is stark. No sales leads to no products (out of business) or company sales to new owners who think they can make money.
"Craftsmen put pride and effort into building the instrument". They do, but craftsmen do that with everything they work on, that is how we can tell they are craftsmen. If they do their jobs well and the product is successful they get to come back tomorrow and do it again and get paid again.
"There is nothing logical about putting more human effort into making a finer instrument, nor is it a logical expenditure of the buyer's resources to acquire it." To the contrary, finer instruments sell for more money. In a factory price on finer instruments goes up faster than costs of production. Finer instruments are more profitable. Some people buy the best sounding instruments they can afford, I certainly have over the years. Sound is worth money to me and to many others, that is pretty logical. With Ovation the equation is clear with the Elite and Adamas guitars. The manufacture is similar. There is not a lot of difference in cost between AAA spruce and a carbon fiber birch sandwich top. The selling price varies considerably.
"Profit is very good but not the only measure of value to the world." Absolutely.
"Painting a guitar flashy colors while cutting corners on the build and compromising the tone seemed to be the strategy a few years ago." You know more there than I do, I wasn't paying much attention. It did seem that Ovation maintained some higher quality instruments in their domestic operations while the mix to cheaper and flashier offshore guitars increased. Dunno how it worked for Ovation, but an interesting trend in the instrument business has been the dramatic increase in quality of entry level instruments over the last couple of decades. It has squeezed manufacturers and pushed them to up the quality of their higher end instruments.
"The present owners look to be on a better path. I am hopeful." I hope so too. Envisioning how that process might unfold was what drove the little marketing exercises I indulged in. First a sizeable market segment Ovation has not directly addressed (dreads), and second a market position as a non traditional manufacturer of long standing and stature.
It is interesting to explore this stuff. Thx for playing.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-28 1:55 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Love O Fair. Interesting. I knew that the very first prototype ca '66 was a square edged guitar, and that they immediately dumped it. I did not know they revisited the topic. Anyplace I can look to find out a little more? Did the contour back come out of that experiment?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-28 2:10 PM
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | I think they (Ovation marketing crew) dipped their toes back into the mainstream (square-back bodies), and it was pretty cold. Haven't seen a lot of reviews of those models, either. Just the announcement from the NAMM show a few years ago.
Edited by seesquare 2023-09-28 2:37 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>Anyplace I can look to find out a little more?<<<
Here on the OFC was the only place I saw anything about it, and it was only one thread with a video from NAMM. I browsed the old postings and cannot [easily] locate it since I have no idea what the thread title was (Arthur could have found it in a hot second. I miss him.) Like Seesquare said, it was pretty cold. Likely a proto of only one or a few produced to test the waters. The thing I first recall was some type of way-funky configuration with the electronics to where you had to actually noodle your finger inside of the sound hole to adjust the volume (or something like that). Just a weird duck all around on may aspects, and much like something you remember from a strange dream for the first two minutes after waking up. And no, the contour bowl had been around for eons prior. The square box was just a few years back (being a DW-era invention, I think). I cannot recall the sound of it, but it was obviously nothing that shattered the competition, and the only "cool" part about it was seeing a square-edge body with an Ovation headstock.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-28 7:25 PM
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I think Kim has one. Larrivee built it out in California ... Basically an Elite neck and epaulets on a Larrivee body. If you want a wooden box guitar, then I would say the best Ovation wooden guitars were the New Hartford Guilds. I own several of these.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Here you go ...
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=49...
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Location: Utah | Lefty665 - 2023-09-28 12:25 PM
FlySig. you say some interesting things, but your basic premises are sketchy.
"Profit, ROI, and market share are incidental to the enterprise" All manufactured products, whether tooth paste or good guitars must return enough income to support their continued manufacture or manufacture ceases.
...
It is interesting to explore this stuff. Thx for playing.
My view is a bit different. Which I say as an avowed free market capitalist who is working hard to create income in our retirement. Profit is good!
Profit is not everything. It depends on the individual and the circumstances. My son, for example, works for a master violin maker. They make very high end instruments (violin, viola, cello, bass). They sell very high end bows, and deal in interesting (old) used instruments. They do make profit on all of those. The craftsmen do get paid a decent wage. Absent some profit they, of course, would not make anything.
They pay a lot of the bills with student level instruments. These are a titch nicer than the robot made mass market stuff, and cost just a bit more, but the maker's name brings in buyers. It is analogous to Celebrity guitars. All good value for the money for learners or those who aren't nuts like us. Not as much personal joy to the makers as the finer instruments, but it balances against the $ needed to stay in business.
The staff at the shop get a lot of personal satisfaction making and repairing fine instruments. They could all make more money doing something else if they simply wanted to accumulate dollars.
If ROI is one's only goal, investing in musical instrument makers is not the best idea!
Regarding Ovation, when the venture capitalists bought them it wasn't to build the brand or to build ever better instruments, it was to raid the $ and leave the carcass in the gutter. Fancy MBA managers chased ROI, squashed costs, and intentionally blurred the differentiation between the levels (Applause, Celebrity, Ovation). They made it impossible for mom & pop stores to stock a small selection. The only instruments one could try were lower tier but with the Ovation logo on the headstock, usually with old grimy strings, and at a punishingly loud Guitar Center.
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Location: Richmond, VA | Thanks guys for the link and the info. I've heard a couple of stunning Larrivees over the years and more that were more ho hum. Interesting that Ovation teamed up with them for a demo guitar. My recollection from early Ovation days was that the braces and angles required for a square back guitar so compromised getting sound out that it was quickly rejected. Certainly Ovations have a liveliness and projection that are distinctive. I like the idea of New Haven Guilds being wooden Ovations.
FlySig Glad to see we are not so far apart. FWIW I found that creating profit in retirement started decades before. At least that makes it a lot easier. Although I was a product of B schools, before it was fashionable, I have despised the MBA dorks who trash long term thriving for short term gain and ROI. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing as the saying goes. We're reaping the cost of 30+ years of deindustrialization and short term profit taking. It is going to get uglier if we manage to really p* the Chinese off. America can't flush toilets or fix tractors without Chinese parts. In running my own operation I found that the first thing I had to do was keep the place working. Product mix and pricing varied with how busy we were. Nothing can be profitable without enough volume to spread overhead over units. Those more utilitarian products kept the doors open while the more esoteric things were more fulfilling. The good stuff also carried wider margins, but the higher the price the smaller the market, so they couldn't carry keeping the doors open by themselves. It was a really interesting equation, especially when we screwed up and were either sitting around looking at each other because the shop was empty or busier than one armed paper hangers. We got better at forecasting and managing to hang at a controlled level of chaos.
Martin seems to have done a remarkable job of transforming itself. These days they are doing high volume that spreads overhead over a lot of units while their high end lines and custom shop products are back ordered a year to two years. Chris certainly created profits for his retirement. If they're smart they will expand the high end production to take advantage of the demand while it is there.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-29 11:52 AM
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Location: Richmond, VA | What do y'all like? I've run on about how much I like the Balladeer I got in 1972 and a newer Glen Campbell that has many similar characteristics, the early Legend that I'm not so fond of, a slightly newer electric Legend that sounds better, and a 2010 Custom Elite that projects well but is not as inspiring as it's price when new would have predicted. I've never played an Adamas, what do they sound like? Are they worth the startling premium they command? My ear is shaped by Martin dreads, especially the cleaner focused tone of D-18s and playing Bluegrass, older country and (cough) Americana I've run into over the years. Josh White was my first musical idol and who turned me on to Ovation in the first place. I grew up around D.C. so Charlie Byrd was another early Ovation influence.
What trips you guys triggers? Are there different Ovations I should be thinking about?
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Location: When?? | On the business topic, my credentials have been self-employed an entire working lifetime. Beyond a dozen-plus solid ventures over 47 years, and across an array of endeavors which the balance of confounds any straight line. Mostly small (25 or less people), none of which ever failed to run at profit. But I’m also willing to work the primary function and to eat lean in order to maintain black ink-- all the while watching competitors fall around our feet for some of the most ridiculous reasons. Show-offs mostly among them. A handful of philanthropic projects, too. At least enough that my working “papers” from such are now featured in the permanent archive of a major university (Syracuse). Frankly, those are the most valuable to me.
But be it large or small.. capital or not.. the same dynamics and principles apply. A willingness to find reasons for reasoning, and as few hands as possible in the orchestration while trusting experienced over “educated” management. It is the ilk of those who ‘dreamed up’ their ultimate empire before they ever left school that will cripple or kill a company or project in quick order-- hence, Charlie’s guts vs. Fender’s weenies. Most of those Fender foons wouldn’t know the tone of an A-minor guitar chord from the sound of a skidding tire screech.. but seem to know everything about brands of scotch. Charlie knew about helicopters and guitars for profit.. but he also knew about raising guide dogs for humans in need. I strongly believe that such a blend of tenacity spread throughout a company is what ultimately shows up on the ledger and longevity. Charlie Kaman, Herb Kelleher and J.B. Hunt wrote that book.
As for guitar preferences, let’s face it-- they have been, and always will be, a Coke-Pepsi, Chevy-Ford thing. None are superior to others on the same level of build and cost. I’ve owned maybe 20 Ovations in life, and just recently settled on which ones to retire with on my wall. Carefully choosing one from each decade produced in the USA.. and there they hang. But that’s only because it’s the brand I cut my teeth on and grew up with before the years of actually ‘buying’ the damn things. It’s my personal go-to.. but there still remains a wide space between brand devotion and musical perception. I play a friend’s Taylor 914 and practically propose marriage to it-- though sometimes pick up a $15 yard sale guitar and discover magic. It’s all about the personal ear and touch if you’re talking music. Respect for the instrument and what it does for you, not the brand and model. In fact, I know a guy with a classic ’72 Ovation Legend that he just can’t seem to.. well.. you know.
And so be the gospel according to LOF. Meantime, I’m batching it this weekend and need to go get the party started.. so I’ll shut up now.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-29 3:27 PM
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Location: Utah | Lefty665 - 2023-09-29 10:34 AM
FWIW I found that creating profit in retirement started decades before. At least that makes it a lot easier. Although I was a product of B schools, before it was fashionable, I have despised the MBA dorks who trash long term thriving for short term gain and ROI. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing as the saying goes. We're reaping the cost of 30+ years of deindustrialization and short term profit taking.
If the stock market would return to pre-pandemic growth I would be quite happy! Also it would be nice if the tax man would leave us alone for a while. And if inflation would reduce, yeah that would be great too.
My long term employer that I retired from was originally a family business. Though they had gone public decades prior to my starting there, the CEO was from that family. Many of the old timers when I started had grown up with him. There were a lot of long term friends across the operation. Management was astute, but they also had a pride in the company name and pride in their family reputation.
The employees really took pride in working for that company, and it showed in our customer satisfaction surveys. People stayed rather than go to other employers because of the fun atmosphere and the quality of life, despite a lower pay scale than some other choices.
Then when the CEO retired a new guy came in who was an ivy league MBA. It was the race to the bottom on costs. People described it as the Walmart-ization of the company. Even to this day they look at employees as a cost not an asset. Today, employee morale is low, attrition is high. | |
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Location: Utah | Which O/A guitars do I like?
In the Ovation line I like the mid 1970's A-braced legends. I own two of them, one a 1976 Patriot and the other a 1979 model 1619. Both are deep bowl. The Patriot is acoustic only, so it has a bone saddle. It is the best sounding wood top acoustic I've played across any brand. Definitely a bit unrefined and 1970's vibe to the tone. The 1619 is a really close second. The other Ovation I really loved was the 2007 BCS, which is a deep contour bowl LX era Elite style but with only bass side sound holes. Plugged in it was better than the older A-Braced 1619. Unplugged it was a bigger bolder sound and a bit more modern or balanced, maybe a bit cleaner. Every bit as satisfying as the Patriot. Any of those 3 are outstanding for a solo living room performance or playing in an ensemble in an auditorium.
The 2007BCS was nearly as good as the Adamas 2080, so when I had to thin the herd I kept the Adamas. But it was a close call, so that is how good the 2007 BCS was. There was something about those 2007s that everybody loves. I never played the equivalent 2778LX or the less bling but otherwise the same 2078LX but would expect those to be darned good.
I own 3 Adamas guitars and have played a few others. The tops are more responsive to right hand technique than the wood topped Ovations, which is wasted on me. When playing a chord, each string is individually identifiable. (This is where the 2007BCS lost out by a hair to the 2080). Playing a chord on an Ovation you hear a blending of the notes, whereas the Adamas has the individual notes more easily heard. The Adamas is a more even, balanced response, which might be called more refined. I think a good contrast would be Tracy Chapman's guitar which has a definite wood resonance.
The Adamas 1687GT is just a do-everything-great guitar. A gut rumbling, clean, beautiful sound. It is just a few years old and was one of the last guitars out of the custom shop before they shut down New Hartford. The workmanship is top notch, the electronics are fantastic. If I could only have one guitar, this is probably the one.
The Adamas 2080 is a beast. Bold and in your face. Currently strung with mediums and tuned a whole step down. Probably the best stage Adamas if you want to stand out in the crowd.
The 1198AV40 is elegant and refined. 12 frets to the body, so a mellower tone. No electronics. This is my wife's favorite.
I currently also own a 1997 Collector's edition parlor and a 1537 Elite from 1983. Both are excellent in their own way with nothing bad to say about them. Pre-pandemic I played a lot of medieval and renaissance music on the 1537. Clear, clean, not brash or bold. The parlor is fun, sounds great. For a younger player or an adult with smaller hands it would be perfection with the slim neck and smaller body.
In general, I have always been impressed with the USA made LX era guitars more so than the 1990's era equivalents. I've never played an Adamas from any era that didn't seriously impress. | |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Tks guys. First a quick pass at who I am. As noted before, I stumbled into the B school and my first real jobs were in production and marketing management. I dove into the small computer revolution and formed an IT company that exists today. We ended up as a miniature version of Perot's Electronic Data Systems. We did hardware, OS, networking, software and ran back office accounting operations. I wrote a fund balance accounting system that we both vended and operated. Wish I was young and could do it all over again with today's tools, but I'm happily retired and enjoying playing with guitars, Oh, and I'm fond of smoky peaty Islay scotches.
I've had good fortune with guitars. The one in my avatar is an early '50s D-18 I got out of a pawn shop in '68. It is home to me, easy to gig with and a sound that sometimes is described as "that's what a guitar is supposed to sound like". I have liked post war Martin Dreads. They have reverse shifted straight braces that give excellent note definition, clarity and balance from low E to octave 1st string without a big boom on the bass even in rosewood. When combined with mahogany the clarity of sound focused around the note is exceptional. The Balladeer I got in '72 was attractive in having similar qualities and a "liveness" that was and is attractive. Neither the D-18 or Balladeer were as grown up then as they are now.
25 years later came an early '90s Custom Legend, also a pawn shop guitar. The guys I was picking with at the time were getting new Martins and Taylors that had pearl rings around the soundhole. The CL had more abalone than a D-45 so I had more than pearl parity. Although a deep bowl it had just OK sound, even with A bracing it was not as good as the old Balladeer, That CL may have the nicest neck I have ever played. About 5 years ago an early Glen Campbell jumped off the wall at a guitar store. It was nominally late '60s, with an old label and M xxx serial number. However, it had a story. In the early '90s it had gone back to Ovation for a face crack. They replaced the top and maybe the bowl. It is A braced, artist depth bowl and sounds very much like my old Balladeer, but with a little more mids and trebles. It is a very nice sounding guitar. The two of those together are a fine combination flat picking fiddle tunes. They remind me that Tony Rice used an Ovation on his Manzanita CD, specifically the title tune.
Recently I rediscovered my infatuation with Ovations and got a little out of control with several inexpensive Ovations off Ebay. First was a 2010 Custom Elite LX. with the scalloped X braces It sounds pretty good, has a lot of projection, nice tone and very nice electronics. It satisfied my curiosity about guitars with "those" sound holes. Second was the early Legend that is the subject of my posts here. It was pretty but disappointing. Last is a mid '70s Deluxe Balladeer that has not gotten here yet. It should be X braced and I'm hoping it will match the sound of the old Balladeer and GC. Plus it's red and I have not had a gaudy guitar since I sold a mid '60s J-45 with gawdawful put your eyes out cherry sunburst.
Think my last Ovation itch is Adamas. What am I looking for? What will the sound be? What kind of cost? All the ones on Ebay seem to be coming from Japan with price tags that parallel the inflated prices they're asking for Martins. Are some model numbers more attractive than others? All I really care about is sound (and playability). Nothing else really matters to me. I mostly flatpick and all acoustic, so that's what one needs to do. FlySig where does that fit with your descriptions? What do you you think I'd like to pick?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-10-02 6:45 PM
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Location: Utah | Either the 1687GT or the 2080 would be my suggestion. The 1687 is the round deep bowl, whereas the 2080 is the deep contour which is also a cutaway. The 2080 is out of production.
There are some other interesting options, depending on what exactly you're looking for in tone, but I am inferring you are looking for a bit of zing and good full bottom end like the Martin dreds. That suggests deep or deep contour bowls.
The 2087GT is current production and is pretty darned close to the 2080. The 2080 did not have the suspension ring, and perhaps that gives it a bit more of a bolder tone, so I would expect the 2087GT to be a bit more refined than the 2080. The 2080 has the NWT carbon fiber top which is different than the 1687GT top but I don't know how that affects tone. Aesthetically the two tops do have a different mood.
There was a 2080SR version made for a while, fwiw.
There is a new model MD80-NWT which is a mid depth contour bowl. Perhaps better for standing than the deep contour. ? I hear good things about this guitar.
The current production Adamas are shipping with the OpPro Studio preamp. It is a great preamp but I actually prefer the VIP in the Adamas. The 2080 came with a VIP. If you play plugged in, I would prefer the VIP in the Adamas and the Studio in wood topped Ovations. All else being equal.
The current production are all hand laid bowls, but the 2080 is the molded glass bead bowl. I think the new bowls are slightly lighter. The pre-LX era bowls are a lot heavier than either glass bead or the modern hand laid.
Damon at Red Blanket Guitars has a bunch of new Adamas in stock. He has been my go-to dealer for a few years now, and will give you honest answers about the different models. He is a life-long Ovation/Adamas fan.
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Location: Richmond, VA | Thank you very much. That is good and specific info for me to chew on. Looks like around $5k on the Adamas. What is there in negotiation room on those these days?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-10-03 6:42 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Any idea when Ovation switched from brown to black cases? FWIW, '72 had brown and '76 that just showed up has a black case. I initially thought that was a newer case until I realized it has several chips that look like they come from being old and brittle. That makes me think that by '76 Ovation had changed to black cases. | |
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Location: SoCal | I've got 2 1983 cases. One black and one brown. | |
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Location: Indiana | Outside the fact the 60's cases were traditional wood construction, covered in black material, once they went to the plastic cases early 70's, I personally didn't see or own any O's with black cases during that decade. Had/have quite a few with original cases. All brown.
My 82 and 83 custom orders were shipped with brown as well; although the newer case design with a wider neck section.
My 85 custom order came in black for the first time. All my 90's forwards are black.
Just my experience. Would never doubt Paul's examples. Early 80's were often transitional.
Hope that adds to the discussion.
Edited by Jonmark Stone 2023-10-05 4:35 PM
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February 2016
Posts: 1770
Location: When?? | I had a '74 Custom Legend that came in one of the old style black cases, which I must have assumed was its original, but I didn't buy the guitar until 1982, so I can only spin the wheel on that one per what both Jonmark and Paul said on that date frame since the original owner I bought it from is now deceased. My oldest brown case is for sure a 1981.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-10-06 2:51 AM
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Joined:
December 2018
Posts: 34
Location: Richmond, VA | Thanks guys. It's clear brown was used at least until the early mid 80s. Although apparently not exclusively. Makes me suspect that the case that came on my '76 Custom Balladeer (description from the '76 price list. I thought it was a Deluxe Balladeer, guess they renamed it to match the Custom Legend.The Legend cost a hundred bucks more and the Custom Legend almost twice as much, I suppose that even in the mid '70s the Custom Legend had abalone.. Everything else seems the same, except the VT-11 bracing) the other day may be a little newer, although not much from the condition of the plastic. It has the wider neck section. It may be that as with tuners Ovation used a variety of cases, especially as sales were accelerating.
My two brown cases from '72 vary in lining color. The Balladeer has brown lining and the Legend purple. It was my guess that the Legend being the new upscale model got the royal lining.
From '72, '76 and '85 price lists there is only one acoustic case listed, 9110 and later models 9110-0.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-10-07 4:17 PM
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Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1770
Location: When?? | As for comparing a guitar's year of build to the case that came with it, let's not count out retailer case stashes. Unless a guitar is known for sure to have come directly from the factory to the end user during any given year, and was purchased off a retail rack, there's no telling how many cases any particular store may have had stacked up in the back room, and for how long or whatever reason, that were eventually paired with any given guitar sale. They could be several years apart. | |
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Joined:
December 2018
Posts: 34
Location: Richmond, VA | Did Ovation ever sell guitars with cases? Martin started that in the '70s with their "steal me" blue cases. Ovation cases seem to be listed as separate price list items at least through '93. You are sure right, if cases were dealer stocked and sold items, there is no telling when a particular style case was sold or what guitar it went on. Like with Gibson guitars, features sometimes show up years after they were nominally changed as the factory got down to old stock of parts. With them you can at least tell the earliest possible date by the introduction date of the newest feature. Be interesting to know when Ovation switched case styles they supplied to stores to get an idea of when the switchover started, although folks could certainly come back and buy a case for a guitar that was originally sold without one. From the price lists the case model number did not change. To Ovation a case was a case. Looks like early '80s is the likely time frame. That's also around the time Martin switched to black plastic.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-10-08 10:38 PM
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Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1770
Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>Did Ovation ever sell guitars with cases?<<<
I suppose that custom shop orders that were placed with a case in the mention could be considered as "coming with a case", but I have always wondered how retailers typically receive their off-the-rack guitars as they come off the truck. Maybe Alpep can chime in on that aspect of the process since he has no doubt seen countless examples from various manufacturers over time. | |
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June 2002
Posts: 6192
Location: Phoenix AZ | At serval OFC Factory Tours we saw a warehouse area full of new cases. | |
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October 2005
Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | Guitars shipped in cases, tuned to concert pitch. That was this century. Idk what they did last century. | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | Sometime in the last 5 years or so, Ovation stopped including hard cases with their guitars. I assume to save money, but it sucks. They don't even have the high qualtiy TLK gig bags anymore. I'm bummed.... | |
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VT-11 bracing improvements