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Location: Yucaipa, California | Ok, I know that by the title of this thread, I'm setting it up for an immediate dive, but....
I have a friend who has one of these little mother's helpers http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Groove-Tubes-Fat-Finger-Guit... on each of his guitars, including his LP and claims a noticable increase in sustain/tonal clarity on all of them.
What's the opinion from the OFC? Anyone ever used one? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Don't know about that...but I do know that I can hear (in a negative way) the damping effect of leaving a capo clamped to my Taylor's headstock. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Many years ago it was actually fashionable to inlay heavy metal bars in headstocks in an effort to increase sustain. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | hype |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Thats why the guitar with the most sustain (UTE) has the lowest mass headstock (slot head) :rolleyes: |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | ...so, then Jim; their claim is that by ADDING mass to the head, it helps to increase the sustain; are you saying that the LESS mass (slothead) increases sustain?...they can't both be right... |
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Location: Orange County, California | Hey Temp!! Back me up here bro!!!
Unless the kinetic energy of the strings directly acts on something, like the nut or saddle for example (I'll even go as far as the tuning machines, but that's it), anything thing else that adds mass is just going to be a "sink" to that energy and further dampen it. As for heavy heads tocks having more sustain, I think having solid wood from the neck to the body (even with a laminate neck) IE no neck-joint has a grater affect than more wood out at the end. Unless the extra "mass" had the ability to vibrate sympathetically (capture some of that energy and prolong it's resonance at the loss of some overall volume) like a reverb tank, It's Bullocks. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Tim, I'm just a simple drummer that happens to enjoy guitar, but I know that if I strum a chord on the UTE, I can walk away, grab a drink, come back, and it's still ringing. The UTE is by far the lightest guitar I own, and it is a slot head which would seem to me has less mass than a standard head. Being the bridge is located lower on the bout (12 fret) and it has a carbon fiber top has something to do with it I'm sure.
Fred lost me when he started with the kinetic energy thing, but I do understand his theory of the extra mass acting as a "sink" to absorb energy rather than sustain it. But bottom line is:Idono. |
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Location: big island | probably works best on a banjo. of course, tim is known to add mass to his head from time to time too. perhaps clarity and sustain is what that jiffy pop hat does for him? |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | The stienbergers have pretty good sustain. And they have practically no body and no head at all. Plus they are relatively light.
If your friend believes in it, you won't be able to convince him otherwise. |
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Location: Slightly northwest of Trader Jim | Seems to me that it takes energy(vibrations) to move mass, the greater the mass the greater the energy to move it.Since the whole guitar vibrates when played the added mass would act as a dampner.
(not bad for a dumb ole wrench,huh?) :rolleyes: |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | all of which leaves big bronze church bells left unexplained... |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by my roommate:
It's Bullocks. I always thought it was "bollocks." Now I'm wondering.
Originally posted by Jeff W.:
all of which leaves big bronze church bells left unexplained... Which reminds me of the punch line "...no, but his face sure rings a bell." Thanks Jeffinator! :D |
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Location: Slightly northwest of Trader Jim | I may be wrong, but aren't bells toned by making the mass of the bell equal around the entire circumfrence of bell? Any extra material on any point of the mouth (relevant to size)will dampen the sound and tone?
:confused: |
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Location: big island | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
all of which leaves big bronze church bells left unexplained... not to mention those monstrous pipes on the grand pipe organs... |
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Location: North Idaho | Doesn't the string vibrate for a longer period of time if the supporting ends are the most rigid? If so, more stable mass would increase vibration times. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by tdeej:
Doesn't the string vibrate for a longer period of time if the supporting ends are the most rigid? If so, more stable mass would increase vibration times. Perhaps true, I don't know. But, it seems to me that if it is true, the supporting point for the headstock end would be the nut, not the tuners. Same for the bridge end...it would be the saddles, not the actual bridge mechanism itself.
But, what do I know? Not much, that's for sure. Ask the FBO guy, he probably knows! :) |
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Location: South of most, North of few | As far as I can reason with my limited abilities, I believe the sustain has more to do with the volume of the body, vibration characteristics of the top and the connection of the neck with the body, than the mass of the head stock. I would think after the nut, it would be a moot point as that is the fulcrum and end of the string's vibration. I really can't believe clamping a metal part on the headstock will improve sustain. But, it might look nice. |
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Location: Delaware | I'm getting into this one a little late so pardon any rehashing. I'm only a beginner in terms of guitar playing but I've played trumpet since 1965. This is an interesting topic. We have several factors to consider. Rather than try to touch on all the parameters producing sound and sustain that I am aware of I'll focus on one aspect - effects of mass on vibrating air columns.
Sometimes the difference is imperceptable to the human ear, so the product mentioned to start this topic may or may not make enough difference to matter. I do not know that. What I do know, from trumpet technology, from building Native American Flutes and from researching the science of sound, is that increasing mass = more power.
In a tennis racquet, the more weight you add to the frame, with the same swing speed and ball weight, the ball will travel further on impact. Mass = power. In trumpet technology, more mass = power, more projection. Standard trumpets, factory made, sound great to audience and player alike. That is because the horn is relatively light and as a result the entire horn vibrates while producing notes... sending sound waves in all directions, not just outward from the bell. Because the sound waves emanate in a spherical wave, the trumpeter is able to hear himself play and adjust tone etc.
When trumpet mass begins to increase, the horn itself starts to vibrate less. End result is the sound is more projected outward via the vibrating air column, exiting the bell. The audience may not hear a difference early on but the trumpeter begins to hear himself playing less and less.
Eventually, as the horns mass continues to increase, the trumpeter finds it difficult to hear himself playing, difficult to adjust tonal qualities on individual notes while the audience is hearing the sound loud and clear, and what's more, with greater intensity because the vibrations that had previously leaked away in all directions through the horn, are now scavenged and focused into the mainstream, directed outward thru the bell.
When mass is added to the guitar, anywhere but on the soundboard, the ability of the strings to vibrate the air volume under the soundboard doesn't change, except for possibly vibrating longer as one poster suggested. The air volume under the soundboard vibrates pretty much the same as usual and causes the resulting vibration on the soundboard - this is like a sound pump. Since less vibration is allowed to migrate through the rest of the guitar, more of it is amplified through the soundboard and air column = more volume, more tone from sound hole and soundboard.
Mass in musical instruments, when used correctly, is about dampening vibration where it takes away from volume, projection and tone. I don't think this matters much for amped guitars (fat finger = hype). It matters for acoustics (fat finger = help). These are my thoughts. |
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Location: Utah | I'm going to weigh in with tdeej's argument. Adding mass to the end of the neck will make it more difficult for the neck to vibrate. Neck vibration will waste energy. So, the neck is "stiffer" and more energy is transmitted to sound, and the string vibrates longer.
Just a guess, but it makes some sense. Is it enough of a difference to hear? That's a whole different issue. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Lots of good inputs here and quite some varied opinions. Here's mine: THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIT.
You can disagree with me, but take it from someone who actually colored the edges of all his CD's with special green felt sharpie pens, I know marketing spew when I see it.
Dave |
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Location: big island | Originally posted by Tupperware:
...take it from someone who actually colored the edges of all his CD's with special green felt sharpie pens...
Dave don't think i've ever heard this one. what's the scoop, dupe? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | http://www.snopes.com/music/media/marker.htm |
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Location: Delaware | Tupperware - I like your style! |
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Location: Chicagoland | Even if it DOES work...25 bucks for a hunk of metal? |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | ...so then, evidently the concensus is: "maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but $$ for a piece of brass??".
I think I'll try a "C"-clamp...and put my hat back on.... |
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Location: South of most, North of few | OK Tim, update time. At church this morning I noticed the lead guitarist and one of the acoustic guys had one of those little devils (no pun intended) on his guitar. After, I talked to the electric player (who is VERY accomplished and I respect his opinion) about the fat finger thing. He said it made a tremendous difference in the sustain of his strat, and apparently did also on the taylor the other guy was playing. From what he says, the audience may not notice a difference, but for him, as he knows his guitar and the sound, it made a great difference. Maybe this thing is for real and not just psychosomatic ??? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Tupperware:
but take it from someone who actually colored the edges of all his CD's with special green felt sharpie pens,
Dave Dave, don't change your mind due to scientific proof!
I believe the spew and I have over 2000 green edged CD's to prove it.
Double blinds are bullshit because memory retention of sound only lasts a few seconds. If "I BELIEVE" it works, then it works. If you "DON'T BELIEVE", then bully for you but don't rain on my parade.
I believe my ears, not someone else's! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Sustain is the golden ring of solid body guitars. If putting a huge paper clip on the headstock improves sustain that why wouldn't every manufacturer incorporate that kind of thing in the design. The real psychosis that's working here is that if you paid good money for something in anticipation of an advertised result, you are very likely to in fact notice said result. I just paid $4. for a bottle of Gatorade Fast Recovery Juice and son of a bitch if I didn't feel a whole lot better after todays morning jog. If this Fat-Finger actually had any sustaining power at all, I'd buy one and clip it right on the end of my pecker. We'll see how it sustains ...
Dave |
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Location: South of most, North of few | :D |
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Location: Cicero, NY | "If this Fat-Finger actually had any sustaining power at all, I'd buy one and clip it right on the end of my pecker. We'll see how it sustains ..."
If it did, I would imagine Mrs Tupp would soon have a collection to rival your guitars, Dave.
;) |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | Use visegrips instead. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Weaser P:
"If this Fat-Finger actually had any sustaining power at all, I'd buy one and clip it right on the end of my pecker. We'll see how it sustains ..."
If it did, I would imagine Mrs Tupp would soon have a collection to rival your guitars, Dave.
;) :D :D :D |
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Location: Delaware | I like this notion from Tupperware -
"Sustain is the golden ring of solid body guitars. If putting a huge paper clip on the headstock improves sustain that why wouldn't every manufacturer incorporate that kind of thing in the design. The real psychosis that's working here is that if you paid good money for something in anticipation of an advertised result, you are very likely to in fact notice said result. I just paid $4. for a bottle of Gatorade Fast Recovery Juice and son of a bitch if I didn't feel a whole lot better after todays morning jog. If this Fat-Finger actually had any sustaining power at all, I'd buy one and clip it right on the end of my pecker. We'll see how it sustains"
This raises a huge point(no pun intended Tupperware). This is why standup commedians in Las Vegas always seem so funny, regardless of their material - vacation mindsets/expectations of the crowd! People are on vacation.. spending money to be there.. and darn it, they're going to have a good time and think the food and entertainment is excellent come hell or high water! Next time you're in a crowd being entertained by a comedian, listen closely - the entire crowd is already primed to laugh - it's like a nervous reaction, autmatic... that is vacation mentality and don't think a lot of industries haven't learned to exploit it!
Like Tupperware said, we tend to build expectations long before experiencing whatever it is we are paying for or anticipating etc... then when it lands... we're pulling for it.
I'll never forget the time my wife and I were in Orlando with the kids. We had one of the best 7 days of my life down there. We ate at PizzaHut most nights because that was our style but one night we decided to splurge. Where did we go? The Olive Garden - big deal, right? Well, back then, this was 20 yrs ago, it was a big deal to us. My wife got lasagna and I got ravioli. All during the meal we were polite and well mannered, according to the atmosphere dictates. Formal dinner = formal manners. The kids had spaghetti etc. The funny part is that all during the meal whenever we asked each other how the meal was, both of us enthusiastically remarked in the affirmative, without a moment hesitation. It was delicious. When we got in the car to leave, I asked the wife one more time, "how was your meal" and we both looked at each and burst into laughter with "it was lousy!".
My ravioli was worse than Chef Boyardee out of a can! That is what loomed in my mind all during dinner - what a disappointment! What came out of my mouth and hers, though? "MMMMMM... very good"
Yeah, that was a rare and precious moment between my wife and I that I'll never forget. A moment when we both broke through the bullcrap in the same instant with the stark truth!
This is a phenomenon, I am certain, in music circles. We buy that $1000 guitar and darn it - it's worth every penny, right? We pick up an expensive gadget and what do you know - it works!
The Placebo Effect - Good point Tupperware - you're THE man! |
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Fat Finger: Help or Hype?