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Location: Simpsonville, SC | hmmmm........well.......hmmmmm (sorry, can't find the words) |
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| they just don't make phillips head hammers the way they used to..
sorry tup..
Glenn |
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Location: NJ | ouch-ie. |
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Location: SoCal | Oh boy... not good.
To do it right, will a whole new neck have to be carved? That picture is painful to look at.
The only positive side of this is that Tup's definitely got a few nice guitars to play while this is straightened out. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Looks like it might be one screw in crooked. I hope. I hate to sound like a cad, but I immediately pulled mine out to check. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | An OFC FRG? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | oof. |
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| Perhaps that is the only one that is correct and the other five need to be tipped.
If this is one of the new slothead Adamas's, for the price and the hand made quality of their originals they are to copy, this will certainly be an embarrassment to the factory. I am sure they will take care of this ASAP if you should want.
Give them my address will ya I'd like to buy this as a second............
Randy |
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Location: SoCal | Sorry to see that Dave.
How could QA miss that :confused: |
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Location: boulder | natural imperfection...
yeah the real question is repair or replace neck? bummer.... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I read that around 8:20 pm-- But I thought that I'd wait to make a stupid remark :cool:
You can't send it back for another...
Unless you wanna ask them for a whole new neck.
Looking at it again, I agree with Mark, that the body-side screw is in there crooked. But they should have seen that! (that's why you drill a pilot -hole)
You could fix it. Or have them.
Cuz you know that you will always KNOW that it is there :mad:
Sorry for your discomfort! |
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Location: Texas | bummer!
for the money, keep buying martins, son. |
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Location: SoCal | Two of mine that went back to be destroyed and/or remade.
Do I see a pattern?
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Location: France | Sorry to see that Dave.
I have the exact same problem on my FD14 and I thought that this is how the guitar was born and it should stay like this.
Tell us what you plan to do about it.
Tom |
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Location: big island | the body side screw is in crooked but both screws are misplaced also. new neck...
what a sham(e)! |
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Location: Germany | Very disappointing to see that on an upmarket US made Adamas. That's the last straw. Frank, it's high time to fire Larry and the Daryl brothers.
Dave, apart from this botch, what do you think about #8?
Karl |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I realize what I'm about to ask is the least of anyone's worry's, but....
Why are the tuners not the Ovation logo'd Schaller tuners? |
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Location: SoCal | I assumed that Dave ordered the guitar with those tuners. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm speechless.... almost.
I'm bummed for you buddy.
I have to wonder... why you?
Not that I would wish this on any other member but... why you?
It's like some crazy planet alignment thing that makes you... Mr. Objective Ovation promotor, Mr. gee wood box guitars are starting to look pretty good to me.... Mr. high profile OFC member... get this guitar.
So, why you?
The guy's whose job it is to screw up (oops... I mean screw on ) the tuners is in for ass chewin' come monday morning. And the climax of the chewing will be to the theme of... " and do you realize just who this guitar was for???".
So when I have my daily quiet time today the cosmic event I will ponder is... "Why Dave???" |
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Location: South of most, North of few | I think it's time ol' Mr. "fit and finish" and "final inspection" have a new neck and shipping charges garnished from their wages...just before they get the pink slip.
Sorry Dave, that is truly unacceptable from a quality company like Ovation. Heads need to roll on this one! :mad: |
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Location: Germany | Slipkid, that's also what I ask myself: Why Dave?
A few months ago we also had a quality discussion on this board. I assumed that they ship all their crap to Europe.
Dave argued:
"Nobody likes a good consiracy theory more than I. But I seriously doubt there is any overt policy to ship "crap" to europe and sell the better stuff in the US. I have no idea how the ovation factory runs, but it would seem impossible or at the very least impractical, that the destination of guitars is pre-ordained before they are built. Remember, Ovation builds and "sells" the guitars to Kaman music and they distribute them via their channels and foreign distributors. I doubt Kaman has any idea what's in the box when they decide that this one goes to Chicago and this one goes to Munich. In reality, keeping track of the "crap" and making sure it got to the right country would be more difficult than eliminating the problems to begin with. Dave"
Now I know he is right. They had no idea that this guitar was destined for one of their most important promoters.
Karl |
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| Not the best thing to see on a guitar. Dave, you should send it back and ask them to fix it. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Slipkid:
"Why Dave???" Simply because the probability it will occur increases with the number of guitars one purchases. No mystery.
That doesn't mean it sucks any less... One does have to wonder, how that obvious a defect gets through on what is arguably the finest, mostly-hand-built, highest priced 6 string limited production guitar Ovation has ever made.
Dave, remember to include your completed warranty card with the guitar when you ship it back... |
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Location: Munich, Germany | That is hard to look at. Sorry for you, Dave.
These quality issues seem to happen more often than we thought in my quality issue thread. Happened to my first #47, my first JW RI, my Ute ,Tom's FD 14, now Dave's OFC and some others that I won't name until the owners do it by themselves.
Again I will claim - these are not serial models for typical "okay, then let's try a Ovation"-GC customers. These are guitars for people who know what they want and hang on to their brand. That most of the time have more than one of these guitars and lead others the path to Ovation guitars with their conviction and love for them.
That even live in a forum - beside their second life.
It is disrespectful to let stuff like this leave the factory - and laugh in the customer's face with a quality assurance sheet that is not worth the money it is printed on. Neither are these guitars worth any money.
" We inspect and certify each Ovation instrument as though it were our own".
Maybe they should think about it, and inspect and build them as if they were for their longterm and trustful customers.
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Location: south east Michigan | Because I am an employee who cares how company time is spent I made up an "Ass Chewing Request Form". Look... I know when I screw up and I know it's not gonna just slip by and I hate waiting for the hard rain to fall. So when it happens I just fill out the form with the appropriate boxes checked and a short description of the evil deed and drop it in the boss's mailbox. This way I can get an appointment for the ass chewing and less Company time is wasted as I try to hide under my desk.
I'll fax one of those forms over to the factory.
Dave... they owe ya. Big time. |
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| Kurt, you may be right but other guitar makers (martin, larrivee, etc) may have similar issues from time to time. it happens and it's fixable. After all the guitar is under warranty. Dave can send it back and they should be able to fix it. It's weird though that 2 OFC guitars already had these quality imperfections, moody's with the bowl "stain" and Dave' with the tuner... |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | giuseppe: but if you'd spend few thousand dollars on a guitar which should be made with great precision and care, and you got something like that, would you like to send it back and wait for a repair?
I would want my money back, not the guitar, and after getting money i'd call Kevin Ryan and i'd order guitar fully hand-made by him - because in this price range you can get Nightingale which is the best guitar i've ever heard in my life.
And i bet that no Ryan left his workshop with something like this.
Kurt:
try to play on a Lakewood, i've seen those guitars in 2 shops few weeks ago in Germany. They're hand-built and they sound great. And they're in the same price range as ovations. |
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Location: Germany | Guiseppe, it's not the point that these things happen, the point is that these guitars leave the factory with threee signatures from three staffer involved in quality control. This goes deeper. It shows, that the factory has substantial problems in personnel and factory management. Sorry to say that.
I'm involved with the automotive business over here in Germany. We put considerable effort in quality management systems. Could it happen that a Porsche leaves the factory with an inclined mounted car handhold? Please show me one and I undo the above statement.
To me the OFC guitar is the Porsche of the roundback business.
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| little boy jefferson, getting your money back may not be an option in this case....I don't know. My understanding is that these guys have pre-ordered thru Al a very special and expensive run of 12 guitars. I wish i could afford to order one!
Regarding your suggestion on getting your money back and order a Kevin Ryan, i think that this is NOT the case here.
I have never played a lakewood but i've heard good things about them. :) |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | It is hard to imagine how this could have happened in the first place but to have gotten through at least three inspections and reach the final destination without someone picking this up is mind-boggling. |
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| Kurt, you maybe right but serious quality problems affecting the German auto industry (Mercedes, BMW, etc) are well-documented in the international press in recent years. apparently nobody is perfect! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Originally posted by Bluebird:
least three inspections and reach the final destination without someone picking this up is mind-boggling. Heck.. Even if it didn't get "seen", the "feel" of it when tuning should have raised a flag. For inspection purposes this thing had to tuned up what... 3... 4 times??? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I am really sorry to see that Dave. I was also sorry to see the initialed inspection sheets posted. It didn't feel right.
But then again, I have signed for a number of Ship's systems and reactor parts or inspections over the years and whether the item is major or minor the certification should be consistant.
My only non-return suggestion would be a nice set of Waverly's.
Waverly\'s at Stewmac |
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| My only non-return suggestion would be a nice set of Waverly's. This is a great idea!!!! :) |
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Location: Germany | Guiseepe,
first of all, my name is Karl not Kurt (even though Kurt is a very nice guy).
Second, in this thread we don't talk about a Celebrity or Applause, we talk about the OFC guitar. So I referred to Porsche and not to Mercedes or BMW.
Third, sorry for the quality of my English skills. The quality control in high-school failed 30 years ago.
Karl |
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| Oooooops! Karl sorry for that!
I do get your point, although I look at the OFC slothead as a Ferrari Testarossa. :) :) :) no offense :)
Nevertheless, it seems that QC issues exist, the guys over Ovation should better start taking care of it. The sooner the better. Yet, the positive aspect of it is that the guitars are under warranty! Dave should send it back (if he wants to) and get it fixed. What else can I say? |
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Location: SoCal | Woodrow, those Waverlys are BEAUTIFUL! I don't think that they are the solution here as the guitar should have been RIGHT from the get-go.
But I'm wondering what those Waverlys, in gold, would look like on my FD14. No, wait.. $172? They wouldn't look that good...... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | "One word, my friend... plastic!"
Sorry, that would be wrong too. :rolleyes: |
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OK, let me bring this to a close because we are going to get off on all kinds of tangents. It hurts me to say this because Ovation has been very good to me over the years and done some wonderful favors for me. But the bottom line is that Ovation’s quality control just plain sucks. This is not an isolated incident. There is a long, long history of quality control problems with Ovation products. Do a search. Read the threads.
To Ovation’s defense, I think we are asking them to do something they are simply not capable of doing. They build the working mans guitar. The rugged road warrior. The plastic backed Balladeers and Legends. Nice guitars. But now we’re asking them to build high end quality guitars the likes of Martin, Santa Cruz, Lowden and Collings. And in my opinion they are just not capable of doing it, plain and simple. Their problems are always on the high end limited edition stuff. Read the threads. U681, FD14, Adamas reissues, Shiny bowl reissue, 47RI, … A member just emailed me photos of his Adamas very limited run guitar and you would shit if you saw the crappy workmanship. By the way, signed off by the same quality control experts as OFC #8.
Back to the tuning key issue on OFC #8. It took me 3 seconds to spot this problem. This is not a paint smudge that you can only see under a magnifying glass. You can see this from across the freaking room! AND, it’s the low E tuner, the one that stares you straight in the face when you hold the guitar. You couldn’t miss this fu$k-up if you tried. The good news is that it only took me 3 minutes to fix it. I removed the tuner and underneath found TWO sets of screw holes. One set of holes obviously wrong, and next to them a correctly positioned set of holes. Installed the tuner in the correct holes and it’s perfect. The tuner body completely covers the wrongly drilled holes. Obviously the drill guy goofed, spotted his error, and fixed it by making the correct holes. Lucky for his ass it would all be covered by the tuner body. So, problem solved and everything is good.
Well no, actually everything is NOT good. Here’s where the quality problems really started to snow ball. How did the person installing the tuners NOT notice that they used the wrong holes and that the position of the tuner was obviously screwed up? How did the person who strung the guitar NOT notice this problem? How did THREE quality control inspectors who signed off the tag NOT notice this problem? Hell, even the slap-jockey who puts it in the case should have noticed that it was not right! Like I said, you can see this from across the damn room!
Now here is the icing on the cake. Which of the six tuners do you suppose the initialed quality assurance tag was attached to? YUP. Right there, Ovation Quality Assurance attached by a string to my fucked up tuner! Gentlemen, there is a SERIOUS problem here. If these were isolated incidents I could “almost” understand it. But this happens over and over again and I see no signs that it will ever change. I really think that it’s time for Ovation to break the code of silence and for someone in a position of responsibility to come here on this board and please explain to use what in the hell is going on. Because it’s NOT good. We say that Ovation guitars don’t get the respect they deserve? Bullshit. The reputation that Ovation has is EXACTLY what they deserve.
I think the problem is much deeper than the specific people who turned a blind eye to the issue with OFC #8. I’ve been thinking abut this - Ovation makes a small “business” of selling FRG guitars. Does this sound a little odd to anyone other than myself? And I love John and Kim like brothers, but does it strike anyone as unusual that the SERVICE department is the shining star of the company? Am I way off base here?
As I said, Ovation has done some wonderful, wonderful things for me. And it pains me to have to say this and probably burn some bridges, but it HAS to be said. The quality control just plain sucks. I don’t know how else to say it.
I have been a loyal Ovation enthusiast for 39 years and have really tried to be a good ambassador for the product. But I just can’t do it when they give us this level of quality to work with. At some point you ask yourself why am I putting myself through this when there are such better alternatives available? Sure they are great working mans guitars, great value for the money, wonderful electronics, awesome service department, etc. But you know what? Maybe the rest of the world is right. Maybe they ARE made of plastic. Maybe they DO sound inferior to wooden guitars. Maybe the quality DOES suck. I’ve run out of ways to defend it.
So that’s it. I’m DONE. End of the road.
CLICK, CLICK, CLICKITY, CLICK, CLICK. OVER AND OUT.
Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | Like I said before... "Why did it have to be Dave???".
And Dave... I'm very happy there was a fix for this. But I still think they owe ya. At least an apology. |
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Location: North Idaho | Proof positive these are handmade. Just as we are not perfect, so are the products of our making. What alarms me is the fact that no one fixed the mistake. Either several people--hole driller, tuner installer, string installer, and final inspectors-- did not see the problem or chose to ignore the 'screw up'. Makes me want to be more diligent in my work as others do eventually see what I've done or failed to do. Dave, I feel bad that this happened to you and the inconvenience caused. Still, I will reserve my final judgment towards Adamas/Kaman until I see how they respond. |
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| wow.... :(
Dave, your frustration makes me sad, frankly. I hope the guys over ovation do something to fix the problems... |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Okay, the CONSISTENT quality appears to be a real issue. (Like I'd know. I've have 5 different O's in 35 years and still have 3 of them.)
But some of us are tuned a little tighter than others too. (Of course, this may be another perfect example of why I won't live in any city. Being surrounded by people seems to wind everyone up a bit.)
The Buddha says; Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. (not that I follow anyone's teachings. I enjoy the view as I wander, lost ;) )
We all give the same advice to newbies here about how to treat and value their guitar. Buy what you like and play the hell out of it!
I'd say; register you legitimate dissatisfaction with Ovation. (yes, you've already done that) See what they do to make up for the error, and see what it sounds like in the meantime.
My motto:
Stay curious |
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| I've just checked my custom ordered Country Artist which had a barrel load of faults and still has unvarnished insides to the slotheads.
Guess who initialled the QC card? |
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| fillhixx,
I couldn't agree more!!! |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | As conspiracy theories go.....Could Ovation's QA problems be associated with one or more people at Ovation who have something against the OFC for some reason or other?
Considering that most all of the problems show up on the high end,limited run,special issued guitars that OFC'ers have either asked for and/or ranted and raved about their attributes on this board or to the factory.....
Hmmm,I wonder.......Has anyone ever seen a crooked tuner on a Celebrity? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by tdeej:
Proof positive these are handmade. Just as we are not perfect, so are the products of our making.
What alarms me is the fact that no one fixed the mistake. Either several people--hole driller, tuner installer, string installer, and final inspectors-- did not see the problem or chose to ignore the 'screw up'.
Still, I will reserve my final judgment towards Adamas/Kaman until I see how they respond. I definitely agree on the first point. Machines don't make mistakes once they are programmed correctly... Humans ain't so perfect.
On the other point... I just do maintenance, but if I have time I go for perfection.
I understand that time is of the essence at a "factory" but...
This is a Numbered Special Edition! Pay Attention!
I am glad to here that it was fixable :)
edit-- "Hmmm,I wonder.......Has anyone ever seen a crooked tuner on a Celebrity?"
Nope! All mine work acceptably... |
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Location: Midland, MI | Wait...the QC tag was hanging on the dicked up tuner?
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by TRboy:
Hmmm,I wonder.......Has anyone ever seen a crooked tuner on a Celebrity? I'm sure it has happened, but the possibility that the import line is actually of higher finish quality than the domestic line is...I'm not even going to finish that thought. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Will Ovation make good on replacement or repair? Yes, of course.
Is the occasional quality defect going to happen? Yes, of course.
Is a fucked-up guitar tuner placement a good reason to go postal? Probably not but, it can be entertaining....
But, I will applaud Tuppy for calling a spade a spade. THINK about this! 12 high end guitars touched by relatively few hands, not like they are speeding through and assembly line... Inspected at least three different times and the tag hung on the very defect that went unnoticed... there is a systemic accountability issue here or poor standards or folks just don't know any better or worse don't care, any and all of which are not good.
Standing alone, this might seem like the odd, infrequent occurrence, but this isn't a stand alone occurrence... in fact, well documented.
There's an elephant in the living room. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Is a fucked-up guitar tuner placement a good reason to go postal? I think Dave has handled this very well. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Guys, don't get out of hand here. There's no conspiracy theory. No one is going to call me and apologize for the problem. I'm not looking for anything. It's fixed, the guitar is perfect. It sounds great, plays great, and I'm proud to own it. I'm forever indebted to Al for doing this project.
I'm just completely fed up with this ongoing issue of poor workmanship and lack of quality control. It is what it is and in the end the consumer decides if this is worth his trouble and money or not. End of story.
Dave |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
...
Standing alone, this might seem like the odd, infrequent occurrence, but this isn't a stand alone occurrence... in fact, well documented. Dammit, what they need is a management consultant/motivational speaker/team builder guy to come up there and school 'em! ;)
There's an elephant in the living room. Where's a trebuchet when you need one, Jeff? :D
(This post is not to make light of Dave's plight) |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Changed my mind about this post. |
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| Guys, don't get out of hand here. There's no conspiracy theory. No one is going to call me and apologize for the problem. I'm not looking for anything. It's fixed, the guitar is perfect. It sounds great, plays great, and I'm proud to own it. I'm forever indebted to Al for doing this project. Nicely said Dave! Glad you fixed it and you like it. Enjoy the guitar! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Slipkid:
Is a fucked-up guitar tuner placement a good reason to go postal? I think Dave has handled this very well. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by cruster:
Dammit, what they need is a management consultant/motivational speaker/team builder guy to come up there and school 'em! ;) Customized programs available. Contact me at  |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Considering how simple it was to fix, I think that Dave's diatribe was unnecessary. |
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| Diatribe............ it's only talk..... |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Wow, I just got home and found this tread...Dave, my friend, I am sorry...and I know just how you feel...remember what happened two weeks ago when I opened the 1687-2 and found the inspection cover inside the guitar...the lip had separated completely from the body w/ the plate still securely attached...again, I fixed it (because I could) and was able to play it and was blessed that nothing else was ruined with that inside the guitar during shipping...at first we thought it was rough handling by DHL...but that turned out to not be the case: the inside of the body had not been wiped out before the lip was cemented in place: I know this as there was a thin film of "factory dust"/"builders residue" on the inside of the bowl...it should have been wiped out with a tack cloth before gluing...it wasn't and the contact failed...This on a Custom Shop Adamas high end top of the food chain Model...Yes, I fixed it and glad that I could...Dave did the same. Bravo Dave! BUT, WE SHOULD NOT HAVE A 2ND/DAMAGED/BROKEN GUITAR SHIPPED WITH A QUALITY ASSUARANCE TAG (MINE IS IDENTICAL TO DAVES; I STILL HAVE IT) CLAIMING OTHERWISE! Dave has every reason to be upset and those who claim he should not; well when was the last time you spent thousands of dollars; waited months for it to arrive; and then immediately find it was messed up (I'm being kind here)? Give me a break! I love John and Kim like brothers, but does it strike anyone as unusual that the SERVICE department is the shining star of the company? Am I way off base here?
No Dave, you are right on target and it needs to stop!
"Integrity is who you are and what you are when you are all alone"
That holds for QA as well as the person on the assembly line; as well as the management of the company...it is a universal truth!
I just had the 2nd B string and both E tuners on my 1990 1758-1 repaired/realigned at the mothership along with a few age related issues...Now its as good as new, but that the guitar ever left in 1990 with three misaligned tuners should have never happened. Mistakes are made; we are human after all, but where is our integrity?
Blessings... |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | Originally posted by TRboy:
Hmmm,I wonder.......Has anyone ever seen a crooked tuner on a Celebrity? speaking of celebrity.
tuners on my Celeb (2002 LE) look like they were painted with cheap gold paint used for plastic models.
They've lost original colour and they look 3 times older than those on my legend. Another thing:
In bridge the hole for piezo is badly cutted. after putting the saddle directly on 1 shim and a piezo you have high E string 2mm higher than low E.
Not to mention that 5 years old preamp is DEAD in this guitar and AFAIK this is the most expensive celebrity except double necks. |
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Location: Germany | Shipping of #10 is pending (it still waits for the carbon fibre case). I feel damn queasy.
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| hmmm, I see lots of QC issues here....something is not right.... |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Mitchrx:
Considering how simple it was to fix, I think that Dave's diatribe was unnecessary. I understand your point Mitch, but ... I know that there are some obvious quality issues and downright flaws with a number of the OFC guitars ... things that should never have gotten out of the factory nor foisted on some of the brand's most loyal supporters. Dave is the only one with the cajones to speak out ... even if Dave's issue is relatively minor compared to some of the others I know about. But if something that apparent got by the QA process, what other issue lurk beneath the "across the room" obvious?
You would never see these kinds of defects on $1500 guitars from the "other" manufacturers, much less a guitar that's over four grand. They would never have gotten out of the door of those other factories, and in the case of a $4K guitar, their workshop. You've gotta ask yourself "what would you think if it was hanging in a music store". Answer: Ovation's best efforts are still crappy guitars and not even up to the standards of the better Chinese brands.
We all appreciate all of the hard work and cajoling Al did on our behalf to get these guitars made, and perhaps don't to make a stink. There was a lot a pushback from certain quarters of the company to make these in the first place, so some are reticent to push the issue. Maybe some didn't want to put Al through the pain of dealing with our issues. Well, those with defects need to stand up and be counted. We've got to let the company know. Some may choose to do it in a less public way, but that's a personal decision.
If you've bought a guitar that is the finest that Ovation can make, it should be the finest Ovation can make. If this is it, Ovation is in a world of hurt. |
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| Dave's issue is relatively minor compared to some of the others I know about.....Well, those with defects need to stand up and be counted. We've got to let the company know. Some may choose to do it in a less public way, but that's a personal decision.
why? how many of them had QC issues? so far we know of 2... :confused: :eek: |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by Tupperware:
No one is going to call me and apologize for the problem. dave
I did exactly that.
when I found out about the problem HERE. |
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Location: Germany | :) |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | "...why? how many of them had QC issues? so far we know of 2..."
If eight have been delivered, that's 25%. Far to many for a guitar of this calibre. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Guys, you are missing my point just a little bit. My posts on this topic were 10% about my specific issue and 90% about a much bigger issue. With regard to #8 I was able to easily fix it myself (Mitch, you stated "if it was so easy to fix why make a big deal about it" - well, you answered your own question). If I could not have fixed it, then the factory would have. They would make it 100% perfect, I have no doubt about it. Al was all over this and offered to take whatever action necessary and I know 100% that he is a man of his word and would stand behind it. The issue is not #8. The issue is not really the workmanship. People make mistakes - you are dealing with human beings, wood and power tools. Never a good combination. The bitch that I have, and I still feel very strongly about it, is the quality assurance tag on the guitar. If it says the guitar met your standards yet still leaves with obvious flaws, then there is either a problem with the standard, or in how it is being applied.
Dispite all the storm that's been stirred up in this thread, and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE for blind siding Al after all he has done for us, I do hope some good will come of it and perhaps folks might rethink what quality assurance really means before they give it the rubber stamp. This applies to Ovation as well as probably a lot of our own jobs.
All this behind us, the OFC Guitar is really an amazing instrument. It has a slightly different voice than the 47RI. And without question that damn 1-3/4 neck is the cat's ass. For the last 3.5 years I've been spouting how the FD14 was the finest neck I've ever played. No more. This #8 neck is just something to die for. I'll try to post a photo later of all the cool Lost Art swag. Al went above and beyond and this is some really good stuff. I love the Access Bag - exactly what I needed. Here's some interesting stuff that was in the case.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by alpep:
Originally posted by Tupperware:
No one is going to call me and apologize for the problem. dave
I did exactly that.
when I found out about the problem HERE. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Can someone explain the vibrometer plot to me. Looks like it peaks out at 91 and 167 Hz. Is this similar to what the other OFC guitars look like? I wish they had done this to the 47RI guitars. As I said, the two guitars have a little different voice and I'd be interested to see how their plots compare.
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Location: Germany | Dave, thanks for posting the response spectrum. The lowest resonance frequency is 91 Hz, so your guitar has serial# 22354-91.
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Location: South of most, North of few | Al, I understood completely where you were coming from on this. Anything can be repaired, and some repairs are very easy, as in your case. The fact remains, you spent A LOT of money on a top of the line instrument which one would think would, first of all, be assembled with the utmost care, and secondly, be absolutely inspected as perfect before it ever left the premises. The real problem isn't your guitar, it's the crew that let it leave in the condition it was. Let's all hope this isn't the shape of things to come from Ovation. | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Trust me, it looks exactly the same as all the others. They did a very good job with the consistency of the color and gold sparkle among all of them that I have seen. Sure there is some small variation, but you'd never notice. I'll take photos soon. I'm waiting for another guitar (not OFC guitar) to arrive first. Dave | |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Originally posted by Tupperware:
......I'm waiting for another guitar (not OFC guitar) to arrive first. Dave Dave,Let us know if the Martin arrives with a crooked tuner!....... | |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Dave, when you re-aligned the tuner, were the original holes completely covered by the tuner?
For such a relatively minor flaw, I probably would have done the repairs myself as well. That doesn't affect the rest of your warranty, does it?
Maybe "Are tuning pegs straight?" isn't on the QC list? | |
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Location: SoCal | Tup, I agree with much of what you said, and overall I think you handled it well.
Thank god this didn't happen to that prick, StandingOvation! He would have made a stink that would still be going on...... | |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Maybe I shouldn't remind people about "The Good Ol' Days" but I was looking in the Vault for info on Truss Rod Adjustment and such...
I wanna Congratulate everyone on the decorum that y'all display lately!
The site was border-line PG13 or worse back then.
[Congratulate myself too... I definitely don't talk the way I type :p ] | |
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Location: SoCal | F*@k you Artie!
Oh wait, we're not saying stuff like that anymore....
Actually, you're right. For a topic that we're all very passionate about, this has been a civil thread. Like I said, w/o standingovation around, things are much calmer around here..... | |
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Location: Omaha, NE | That is quite a photo.
I am genuinely interested in understanding what "DM" was thinking...Did he just not notice the crooked tuner? Did he notice it but not consider it a defect? Did he notice it, realize it was a problem, but conclude it wasn't worth bothering with? After all, their standard is "as if it were our own"...Maybe "DM" doesn't care about crooked tuners?
I've told this story here before, but I bought an Adamas back in 2000 that had a similar issue...In my case the end of one of the epaulets had broken off...we are talking about a piece about the size of a the nail on your little finger. It was re-glued to the top in a fashion that most first graders would be embarrassed to claim as their own: It was at least 3/16" out of alignment. Total joke.
The factory replaced the guitar, of course. But the first one should have never left the factory.
So, in that case, as in the case here, you are left to wonder just how many peoples' hands the guitar, with its obvious defect, passed through...every one of which for whatever reason just sent it on down the line.
It also makes you wonder just what the hell is an FRG. If guitars with clear problems aren't pulled out, fixed, and then sold as FRG's, what are? This situation adds credibility to the notion than an FRG is really just the factory's way of unloading excess inventory without undercutting the primary retail sales channel.
In the case of this crooked tuner, I am also interested in specifically how this could have happened. I would have thought that the factory had a nice little aluminum jig that attached to the head and ensured that the holes were properly aligned. It would take less than a half an hour to fashion a jig like that.
But the situation here suggests that these things are aligned by hand. After I saw Dave's photo, I went and took a really close look at my new Koala. I noticed one of the tuners ever so slightly off of alignment. Not enough that you'd really notice it, but enough that you have to conclude that they are aligning these by hand and by eye, rather than using a jig to ensure repeatable accuracy.
My other guitar is a Taylor. One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. With them, it is all about process. Every function is standardized and automated. They spend a small fortune on custom machinery every year. Opportunities for human error are stripped away. The result is extreme consistency and precision.
Maybe the Ovation guys should take the Taylor factory tour sometime. | |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | My other guitar is a Taylor. One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. With them, it is all about process. Every function is standardized and automated. They spend a small fortune on custom machinery every year. Opportunities for human error are stripped away. The result is extreme consistency and precision.
Maybe the Ovation guys should take the Taylor factory tour sometime. I own 4. I know that Dave does not like Taylors and out of respect for his bad day, I bit my tounge earlier...
but I could not have said it better myself... :rolleyes:
Blessings... | |
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Location: SoCal | I actually prefer a guitar that may not be perfect, but has some soul in it.... | |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I have to say I have no idea what that means. Does a crooked tuner give a guitar 'soul'? | |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Paul, you are welcome to play mine anytime...my 1998 Custom 615 w/presentation Brazilian rosewood is a fantastic guitar...I wish you could have heard Randy (Lanaki) play it at the OFC Southern Jam...and the 2006 810 Fall limited w/Madagascar rosewood is as well; not to mention the 1998 W-65 12 in all over Claro Walnut...There are lots of guitars w/soul...but it takes a living soul to caress it out...offer still stands, my friend! ;)
Blessings... | |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Omaha
One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. Interesting, considering the background and experience/expertise of Ovation's founder. | |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | Moody and Mishka have hit the nail on the head, but with different hammers. Every Guitar has it's (the guitars) own soul.
With each different person playing it, that soul differs.
VIVA la difference! | |
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Location: SoCal | Mike, I've played a lot of Taylors. I've liked a lot of them but haven't loved any of them enough to buy one. They don't talk to me and cost about twice what I think they are worth.
Maybe this is a good time to post something that I think is worth stating now and again:
I don't ask that you love my guitars the way I do. I hope you love your guitars the way I love mine.
Quite honestly, I'm going to sound pretty well the same regardless of the guitar I pick up. The music is in me, not the guitar. So I play what makes me happy. Debating guitars, to me, once I've stated my opinion, is rather pointless as I'm not out to score points in an argument. So let's not start an argument that has no point...... | |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | Moody said: Quite honestly, I'm going to sound pretty well the same regardless of the guitar I pick up. Me too Moody, me too! | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by muzza:
when you re-aligned the tuner, were the original holes completely covered by the tuner? That doesn't affect the rest of your warranty, does it? The erroneous holes are completely covered by the tuner body. As far as warranty, I can't imagine that doing what the QC guy should have done in the first place would have any effect on warranty.
Originally posted by MusicMishka:
I know that Dave does not like Taylors ... Mike, it's like Yankees and Red Sox. You can't love one without disliking the other. As far as quality, I've looked over a LOT of Taylors in the stores and not a single one of them has been anything less than flawless. 'Nuf said on that topic. Seriously, if they sounded and played better I'd own one :D (that was uncalled for but sorry, I couldn't resist).
Dave | |
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Location: big island | it would seem to me that the two "extra" screw holes under the tuner cover are close enough to weaken the stability of the correct two. personally, i would not be content with that "band-aid" if i had spent even a fourth as much on a guitar. i would have the company make it right.
and dave, couldn't help but notice the link to your ovation gallery is missing from your signature line...
(i won't mention it though) | |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Tupperware:
I've looked over a LOT of Taylors in the stores and not a single one of them has been anything less than flawless. That's right.
It makes no difference to me what brand of guitar someone plays, but to deny that Taylor is an industry leader in overall quality, fit and finish and refinement is to deny the obvious.
Frankly, they are so much better I judge them by a different standard. For example, my KOALA has some minor finish drips on the inside of the slothead. Nothing worth noticing, let alone being bothered by. They really aren't so much 'drips' as 'places where the finish is a little thicker than others'. But you would never see that on a Taylor. No way. On a Taylor, I would consider them a defect.
I just spent an hour playing my 714ce and my KOALA back to back. I love them both, particularly because they are so complimentary: The strengths they each have feather nicely with the strengths of the other. The Ovation is richer and has a bolder tone, particularly on the bottom end. It is also beautiful to look at, and a real attention getter.
The Taylor has better articulation and separation. It also has the typical insanely fantastic Taylor neck, which makes playing it almost effortless. While guitar players would appreciate its beauty, to the average audience member, it looks like any other standard guitar. | |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Hey , no arguments at all...you guys know me pretty well I think by now...I do like my guitars a lot...ok, I’m passionate about them…but you're welcome to play any of them at any time...That’s the ONLY point I was trying to make...I don't sell guitars...I play them and have a few in a small collection...but they all get played or they hit the highway...well, all but the harmony's...the 61 is playable and sounds rather cool in its own way...the 31 was my stepfathers guitar...its cool as well but unplayable at the moment...I don't have on OFC (would be nice...Al (thank you) did a great thing bringing this series), and I am thrilled (seriously) for those that do...
There is a point to the QA issue here and that needs to be looked into...
One more important thing: it’s nearly July 4th: Please everyone, find a Veteran or Active Duty Military and just tell them "thanks". You will make their day and will have thanked the people who make/have made it possible for the freedoms we all too often take for granted here in America...like talking and playing guitars just for an example...
Blessings to all... | |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | I think you've got completely the right idea, Dave. Frustrating as it may be, it's fixed, and it wasn't a top separated from the bowl, or a busted-in preamp, or as someone even got I recall, completely the wrong guitar. It's beautiful, sounds great, no sweat.
That said, the real problem is that any company could let so many inconsistencies on their upper-end products go unnoticed. If I make a cookie and it gets a bit over-baked, no major deal, not a huge problem. If it's not sellable I throw it out, but if it's not identical to the other 500 cookies I just made, no problem. If I were to overbake a wedding cake for 300 people, however...one little mistake not addressed can ruin your reputation with many, many people. Particularly when you're selling a product in the $1000+ dollar range that depends on maintaining a customer base. If I hired a monkey to bake bread and let him lose hair in the bags, I'd run out of customers pretty dang quick.
Someone needs to get the monkey out of the assembly line.
Nuff said. | |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Originally posted by cruster:
Originally posted by Omaha
One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. Interesting, considering the background and experience/expertise of Ovation's founder.
For the record, I bought one, and really love it. I'm not however a huge Martin fan, and I think Dave's Yankees/Red Sox comparison is right on. I love great guitars, but definitely have my favorites. Just because you love baseball, however, doesn't mean that you like all the teams.
Anymore, it's a hard call whether I pick up an Ovation or my Taylor to play...really depends on my mood. Music is definitely in the player, not the guitar. | |
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Location: SoCal | And I love John and Kim like brothers, but does it strike anyone as unusual that the SERVICE department is the shining star of the company? Kim won me over many years ago when he called early one morning and said, let me get that guitar back here (to the Factory) and take care of it.
I buy 'em, I order 'em... and then I send 'em in to John, Kim, and their crew. Under warranty or a paid repair, the guitars come back to me in the condition I believe they should have been in the first place.
If Quality is "meeting requirements".... and I continue to see the same inspectors' initials on the QC-Tags of guitars with faults that I can't believe anyone could miss... I have to assume that Ovation has set the inspectors' requirements lower than my expectations. Claims of Quality do not guarantee Perfection... and even Perfection is subjective.
The inspectors are obviously meeting the requirements of their employer, because they are still employed and initialing QC Tags on guitars that I send back to be reworked.
It would just be easier on Al and me if when my guitars are finished, they go directly to "John, Kim, & Company" for corrections before they get shipped out to me. The tough part is impatiently waiting for a new guitar and then having to send it back and wait some more... oh, and don't forget how stupid one feels for shelling out a couple thousand and having nothing in hand.
Dave loves to stir it up... change is usually a product of necessity and when it comes to ignoring blatant fit and finish issues, I guess the people who set the requirements at the Factory still have not seen a reason to implement higher Quality Standards.
After the blatant fit and finish issues with the U681Ts, I assumed the Factory would stop tolerating crap like that at the production-level. I was wrong. I received the 12-string version and... well, enough said.
What are my expectations for 12/12 of the Koa 6-string 12-fret :confused:
Am I reluctant to place an order for a 12-string version of the Koa :(
If I could have gotten an OFC guitar in a 12-fret version I probably would have jumped, but then it really would not have been an OFC guitar, it would have been a custom creation.
The problem is that we keep ordering and buying these guitars knowing that the Quality Standards have not been raised and that our Assurance of Quality is the Service Department. | |
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Location: SoCal | Would be nice to share the "Swept Sin Wave Response" - tried to take mine (7/12) to an uploadable size but you can't read it.
# 7 compared to # 8
#7
A Freq resp 2/1 X: 158.8656Hz Y: -41.607dB
#8
A Freq resp 2/1 X: 91.4176Hz Y: -41.821dB
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#7
B: Freq resp 2/1 X: 93.0101Hz Y: -35.053dB
#8
B: Freq resp 2/1 X: 167.3131Hz Y: -41.094dB
What does it mean, I don't know.
Notice that #7 has 158.8656HZ v. #8 with 91.4176HZ for A. Then, # 7 has 93.0101Hz while # 8 has 167.3131Hz for # 8.
Anyone who wants to share...my fax is 619-330-4761. Sure wish we had this for the 47RI. | |
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Location: Australia | Dave, sorry to here of your OFC Adamas issue my friend.
I agree with you that most people are missing the point. A minor quality issue, perhaps but the fact that it was allowed to leave the factory is disgraceful.To think that workers in the factory saw it and decided to ship it anyway is unbelievable.
Of course the bigger issue is the niggling quality issues which seem all too common on Ovations. I've had little imperfections on most of my O's. It's really not good enough.
BTW, I'm loving the 1627GC. There's just something about this guitar I can hardly put it down. | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Tony Calman:
Would be nice to share the "Swept Sin Wave Response" - tried to take mine (7/12) to an uploadable size but you can't read it. I scanned it at 300dpi, then in photoshop converted to 72dpi and resized to 8 inch width. The problem is that the resulting jpg is still too big for the member gallery to accept. That's why I host everything at roundbackguitar forum.com.
If anyone wants to scan their vibrometer print outs and email them to me I'd be happy to host them for you and you can just link to them in RBGF the same way I do and post the photo in your post.
Dave | |
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Location: Germany | Well, I have a guess of what they are doing to gain the response spectrum. I try to explain it with my limited English skills, so if you don’t understand it, it’s my fault. Probably Darren would be the right person to do that but I’m not sure if he is participating on this board.
They stimulate the sound system of the guitar (mainly soundboard and corpus) with a constant acoustic signal (sinus waveform) in the range of 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. It’s very important to keep this signal very constant. For instance, stimulation can be done by a loudspeaker.
Then they measure how the guitar’s sound system responds to this simulation. There are different ways to do that, I think they put a piezoelectric pressure pickup or focus a laser vibrometer on the top. You can see the result on the response plot. Obviously you have a weak response at lower and higher frequencies and a relatively constant response in the middle of the spectrum. And you can identify two zones where you get a very heavy response. These peaks are called the resonance frequencies of the guitar’s sound system. You know these special frequencies very well if you play your guitar on stage. The sound properties of guitar, amplifier(s) and environment can lead to feedback – the resonance frequency of the entire sound system. The two resonance frequencies of the OFC guitar are not necessarily the feedback frequencies as the response plot only can examine the isolated guitar.
The guys at the engineering department now identify the lowest resonance frequency and determine this frequency to be very characteristic for this special guitar. In case of #8 it’s about 91 Hz, in case of #7 it’s about 93 Hz. In the past (I think up to serial# 10,000) they suffixed this number to the serial #. In my opinion this has nothing to do with the sound impression you get from a guitar (the complete spectrum is important for the sound). From technical point of view it’s very characteristic for a guitar, from musical point of view it’s totally irrelevant. Nice to know the number but not only this frequency determines how your guitar sounds (not to mention if you like the sound).
Please pay attention how to read the plot. At the top there is a higher signal strength but a lower dB value (as the dB value is negative). That means the lower the dB value the higher is the response signal. #7 has 35 dB at 93 Hz, #8 has 41 dB at 91 Hz, so #7 has a better response at his resonance frequency. But Dave, there is no need to be unsatisfied with your guitar, I’m pretty sure you won’t hear a significant difference between #7 and #8 (assuming they have identical strings). By the way, “dB” means “decibel” and is just a special unit of measurement for very large or small ratios. Simply forget about it.
Now don’t waste your time with these plots anymore. Take your guitars and play them – that’s a better long-time investment.
Karl | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Great reply (and totally understandable). Thanks so much Karl. You're right what really matters is 1) do you like the sound and 2) does playing this guitar make you happy.
In the case of #8 both answers are YES !!!!!
I ditched the original strings this morning (yes it IS only 6:01 AM, but what the hell). I don't know what kind of strings they were but I put on some Dean Markley PBs and it sounds wonderful.
Thanks again Al. PS - Yes I found the LP.
Dave | |
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Location: Germany | Well, I said we should not waste our time with the plots. Nevertheless, it would be nice to have some of the plots posted here. I'm interested to see if there are any significant differences between the standard neck and the 3 wide neck guitars. Surely the neck has some influence on the signal response behavior of the guitar but I would assume we can not identify it on the plots. But that's just a guess. I'm curious about it.
I will defintely contribute the plot of #10. Just can't say when.
Karl | |
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Location: SoCal | Karl, thanks...
For the 1% who don't know, # 7 is std neck, Dave's # 8 is the 1st out of what is being called the wide necks.
What I don't understand is the same measurements create such a wide difference.
#7 has 158.8656HZ v. #8 with 91.4176HZ for A.
# 7 has 93.0101Hz v. # 8 has 167.3131Hz for B.
158.8656Hz v. 91.4176hZ for A is a big difference as is # 7's 93.0101Hz v. # 8's 167.3131Hz.
These numbers were taken off of the machine generated printouts - # 7 measured 5/23/07 and # 8 measured 6/12/07. If this was a radar gun, the speeding ticket would would probably be dismissed. My defense would be concerning calibration.
Except for subtle differences in the hand work, both are a/e, top, bowl, bridge placement, strings, etc.
I would have expected closer to:
#7 has 158.8656HZ v. #8 with 167.3131Hz for A.
#7 has 93.0101Hz v. #8 with 91.4176HZ for B.
YET, this is not the rating...inquisitive minds want to know
:eek: :D | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I'll start a new thread with the plots that people send me. It'll be interesting to compare.
I'll play around in photoshop and I think I can stack plots on top of each other for comparison.
If anyone wants to participate, just scan your plot at 300 dpi and email it to me.
Dave | |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I'll start a new thread with the plots that people send me. It'll be interesting to compare.
I'll play around in photoshop and I think I can stack plots on top of each other for comparison.
If anyone wants to participate, just scan your plot at 300 dpi and email it to me.
Dave | |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "Neck Mass" could explain the subtle differences in the similar numbers. I was thinking there was either a typo in the "A"/'B" or the test was run differently for each guitar.... | |
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Posts: 709
Location: Germany | Tony,
I'm quite sure that A and B means nothing special. It's just how the engineer at the factory randomly assigned the two frequencies to the letters. Indeed, what you have expected belongs together:
Lower resonance frequency of #7 is (rounded) 93 Hz and of #8 is 91 Hz.
Higher resonance frequency of #7 is 159 Hz and of #8 is 167 Hz.
What does that mean to us? Well nothing when it comes to the sound of the guitar. But it is a fingerprint unique for the specific guitar. You will recognize your guitar when label and serial# are lost. Just like a fingerprint is unique for a specific person. But it tells us nothing if this person is a good or a bad guy.
Karl | |
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Location: Cicero, NY | A stupid question - when we discuss plotting differences, I'm assuming that would result in differences in sustain and/or volume. Would these plot differences also equate to tone differences? | |
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Location: Germany | My theory is that the differences in resonance frequencies don't contribute to a perceivable sound difference. Dave's approach seems to be the way to success. Stack two plots on top of one another. The more the two curves differ the more you will perceive a tone difference. Will we ever have the chance to hear the differences of all OFC guitars? I would assume not. But maybe some.
Karl | |
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February 2005
Posts: 212
Location: France | As far as I know:
The lowest resonance frequency is called the Helmholtz frequency, it is caused by the holes on the top of the guitar and the body volume.
Blow in an empty bottle and what you hear is the Helmholtz frequency. Add water in the bottle, the frequency changes and you hear a different sound.
There are a lot of other cavity frequencies in a guitar, the helmholtz is always the lowest.
The helmholtz frequency contributes to spread the acoustic energy specifically in the bass notes. I'm not sure it is possible to hear a difference between 91Hz and 93Hz. But I played a 89Hz Adamas and a 100Hz and I think the difference was noticeable. The lowest the hemholtz frequency is the more the guitar will be "boomy" with strong bass.
Tom | |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I don't think you can draw any hard conclusions about the "tone" quality, if each guitar has a slightly different unique fq response at a specified db given very similarly constructed guitars.
In "realtime" playing... this means little. | |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Actually the numbers are not a "signature" as they will change depending on temperature, humidity and how much use the guitar gets. Also, it's not a case of higher or lower numbers are better.
When they started doing this, they found that several guitars that "sounded great" had something in common. That was that the lower resonant frequency, which is just that, the lowest frequency that makes the top resonate the most (average across the whole surface) was in the low 90's.
I would think there is more to it, but basically that's it in a a nutshell. If your guitars resonant freq is in the low 90's it's in company with what are consider the best sounding guitars made. | |
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Location: Germany | I'm looking forward to the OFC slothead reunion when we are going to compare the 2007 to the 2037 plots.
Karl | |
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August 2003
Posts: 430
Location: Lebanon, TN | Simple statements about the QC issues.
1. Ovation launches the Custom Shop as a deliberate market strategy to pull the brand upscale (and we assume improve unit profitability).
2. Al orders one special batch of a number of significant Custom orders for the biggest fans and supporters of the roundback in the world.
3. 25% of guitars supplied to date (2/8) have potentially QC fixable flaws
IMHO the factory HAS to take responsibility for these quality challenges if they intend to bear fruit from this market strategy. Will it stop me ordering or requesting paid repair/service...No, but accountability in all we do guys. | |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | Originally posted by Stuart Miller:
and supporters of the roundback in the world.
3. 25% of guitars supplied to date (2/8) have potentially QC fixable flaws
. I really HATE when people don't know yet post as if they do.
tell me stuart how many guitars have been delivered.
I really would love to konw.
BTW you are WRONG | |
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Posts: 430
Location: Lebanon, TN | With the 'heat' in that response I apologize for any part of my comments that provoked your ire Al.
Nothing more to add. | |
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January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | Everything that needs to be said on this topic has been said. Al, since I’m the one who started this thread, can I ask you to close this? In the old days I could have deleted it. If you don’t think that’s the right thing to do, so be it. The intended purpose of this thread is long over and frankly a lot of peripheral comments don’t add much to the discussion. If you guys want to keep posting on this go ahead. But I’m over it.
I do however want to close this with some comments about myself, not my guitar. It would be wrong for you to think that I am a disgruntled buyer or a spiteful person who feels they have been wronged in some way. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have had 48 hours to mull over this and put things in perspective. My initial posts on this topic were very emotional and pointed. But I stand behind 95% of it. There is a real problem here and it needs to be addressed. ‘Nuf said already on that topic.
The part I regret saying is that Ovation could not build guitars of the same quality as Martin, Collings and Lowden. That sounds like a criticism of the luthiers who build our instruments and it was wrong to say. These are highly skilled builders, among the best in the business. There are many, many examples of their fine work and the OFC guitar is the shiny star of the whole damn lot. What I should have said is that I don’t believe Ovation has the QA systems in place to do it on a consistent basis. The good thing is that it should be possible to improve QA given good work procedures, proper standards, training, and allowing sufficient time for the QA people to do the job.
I also feel terrible for putting Al in such a bad spot over this. You think we are frustrated when some issue comes up, how do you think HE must feel? To us he is the face of Ovation. To Ovation he is the face of the customers. It’s a can’t win situation and I truly feel bad how it was handled in this case. Lesson learned.
I’m not going to stop buying Ovations, although I might think twice about new ones. But if the odd interesting guitar comes up on the use market I could certainly be interested. Yes, I did take down OvationGallery.com but not to make any “statement” or anything. It just seemed awkward to be talking out of both sides of my mouth. On one site I am criticizing Ovation about their lack of QA and on the other site I’m praising them as gods gift to guitardom. Just did not feel right. The site will be back. Maybe it’s time to do a make over, new layout, new colors, new features. Any site that stays stagnant for too long gets boring (hint, hint).
But what I really wanted to respond to were the many, many emails and PMs I received yesterday. WOW, I hadn’t gotten that many emails since I cracked a free password to BustyBabes.com. Many of the messages were sympathetic, some thanked me for bringing up points that had been bothering other members, and some were very critical of my actions with comments like “what’s the big deal”, "you’re going to make enemies”, “you’re biting the hand that feeds you”, ...
Let me explain one thing about Dave Witko. I am a very black and white person (no Jeff I am not a mulatto). When praise is deserved praise will be given. When criticism is deserved criticism will be given. Maybe not always in the most politically correct or sensitive manner, but you get what I mean. What all of you do NOT know (except Al) is that on several occasions maybe 3-4 times in the past few years I have written personal notes of thanks to the factory (and sent via Al the postman) for delivering me perfect flawless instruments. I think the 47RI, the custom legend Slothead, the U681-12, maybe a few others. These instruments were spot on perfect and I went out of my way to make sure that the people responsible for this good work were recognized for it. Now, to NOT bring it up when things are not so perfect would have been hypocritical and wrong. That’s why I did it. You can question my method, but I don’t think you can question my motive. Think of it this way - I have a puppy and he’s cute, playful and I love him to death. But when he shits on the rug am I supposed to ignore it and hope that it does not happen again? Of course not. Action needs to be taken and it doesn’t mean that he’s still not cute, playful and loved to death.
In closing, remember this – The most reliable predictor of future performance is past performance. Unless something alters the path.
Dave | |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Well said Dave. I think this needs to die now. | |
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Location: Slightly northwest of Trader Jim | ditto... :cool: | |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Topic closed at the request of the author. | |
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OFC Guitar # 8