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Location: Lebanon, TN | I just received my latest copy of Recording Magazine and there is an article in there by a Frank Gryner which is entitled:
"Withstanding Ovations"
'Do You enjoy challenges? Miking an Ovation bowl-back guitar qualifies as a recordinging challenge, but it can be done. Here's How.'
I typically avoid recording Ovation bowl-back guitars as I generally favor big, open,natural tone out of an acoustic insturment. When given no alternative but to track one of these guitars, you can get very good results by minding some basic principles. The advice I'll be passing on should also work for any cheaper acoustic guitar from which you may be expected to pull a sonic miracle"
The rest of the article is a simple ABC of recording an acoustic guitar of any brand.
No mention of the difference in mike placement for an Elite style guitar versus Legend center hole style
No discussion of DI'ng as an alternate track to the mic'd track (which I use a lot)
No discussion of the pre-amps with XLR
No discussion of the latest OP-Pro or studio preamps never mind the VIP
No discussion of the different tonal variations with different styles of O or the high end adamas range.
They even have the timerity to put a picture of the 2006FKOA which as far as I am concered is one of the most interesting tonal instruments (plugged and unplugged) that Ovation has produced in some years with the VIP and a contour back.
I am writing to the editor to vent my spleen and copying the wonderful Mr Gryner on my response.
For anyone who wants to pitch in I can forward a copy of the article by email. Frank Gryner's email at the magazine is
gryner@recordingmag.com
He claims to be an LA producer/recording engineer, so if any of our West Coast brethern wants to invite him to an education session feel free.
Grrrrr!!!! |
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Location: Midland, MI | And all this time I thought you just plugged an Ovation in when you wanted to record it. :rolleyes: |
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Location: NJ | . . just make sure you spell "fuckwit" with just one "t" . . |
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Location: SoCal | I'd like to see a copy of the article.
Temp, you wanna weigh in on this? This guy is a 34 year old f%*kwit who lives up in Hollywood. I could post a home phone number but his email will suffice. Ignorance is different from maliciousness, and with a little work, can be corrected. |
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Location: Melbourne Fl. | I'd love to read the entire article...............then respond thanx slydog |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | There are way to many "engineers" (term used loosely) who know the theory of recording, but just don't have the practical experience. In other words, they don't have the ears. |
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| This guy just sounds ignorant...or, actually he probably isn't that good at it so he never get's any experience... |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | I think somebody should invite him here to discuss the article with Cliff and Temp. That worked out pretty ok before. |
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Location: Parrish, FL | That worked out pretty ok before. Speaking of which, anyone know what has happened to GN_Nick? |
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Location: NJ | The guy's got some sizeable credentials (Mission Impossible2 and a bunch of Rob Zombie), but nothing I would take as an overt "authority" on recording acoustic guitars . . .
Y'also have to take into consideration that it's what "HE" likes in the sound of an acoustic guitar (". . as I generally favor big, open,natural tone out of an acoustic insturment . .).
It's all a matter of preference.
Probably a Taylor fan. :rolleyes: |
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Location: Nashville TN. | SM-81 with it in the bottom of the neck position
works great |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | As Mr. O said, he doesn't have the ears. If you look at what he thinks is his best work, ie Rob Zombie, Crystal Meth etc. he's not really tuned to an ovation or adamas sound. He could've said, "I don't like the clear crisp full sound of an adamas, prefering a tone muddled by wood ... but if someone insists on recording such a thing, this is how I do it ..."
He doesn't know what he's talking about; makes me wonder that he's got some friends who've supported because it's not native talent. |
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| He probably had a shallow body applause to use.
These guitars ruin so many peoples idea of what these guitar are. They see the cheap guitars in the shop, try one out to see what all the talk is about, then, because they do not think much of them from that one try, they tell everyone how bad Ovations are because they tried out a $225 guitar once.
Randy |
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Location: Scotland | This is absolute shite. I'm not even going do dignify it with a response, except to say you either have a grasp of recording principles and a pair of ears or you don't, and I would suggest that regardless of this guy's track record he has neither.
The fact is, that from an experiencied recording engineer's standpoint, Ovations are easier to record than the majority of acoustic guitars because they are much better balanced throughout the playable range, therefore they need less additive EQ. You can't EQ in what isn't there in the first place, but if there's plenty of everything you just notch out what you dont want to hear. He probably thinks a parametric is some guy who drives an ambulance. |
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Location: Orange County, California | Perhaps he should read their magazines own Tips section . It's all about your attitude. Even if an instrument or singer sounds like $4it, it's a good sound guys job to make them look cool, not put down anyone (or their choice of guitars), EVER!! |
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Location: Scotland | Damn right. With a good player I can make a great recording with any guitar. It's not about the instrument or the recording equipment or even the microphones, it's entirely about the conviction of the performance and the skill of the recording engineer. The guy is a charlatan. |
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Location: Tennessee | When you can make a crappy player sound good, I've got a job for you. ;)
Funny, (Caveat: I am not a pro engineer ... can't even be considered an amateur), I have a lot of trouble getting the Martin and Gibson sounding good when I record them. Lots of tweaking and such ... and it's a pain. I don't have any trouble getting the Ovations to record quite nicely. But maybe that's because I don't know what I'm doing. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by cruster:
And all this time I thought you just plugged an Ovation in when you wanted to record it. :rolleyes: That's what I was gonna say!!
[So I'll just let you repeat it here :p ] |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Originally posted by cruster:
And all this time I thought you just plugged an Ovation in when you wanted to record it. :rolleyes: That's what I was gonna say!!
[So I'll just let you repeat it here :p ] |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | In his case I think F@ckwit should have two ts, Fahquitt!!!
There, how's that? |
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Location: Scotland | How about a Pee-aitch as well.... "Phuckuitt"? |
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Location: Hicksville, NY | It's quite alright to post your vent[s], but is it necessary to make use of profanity?
No offense everyone ... |
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Location: Scotland | phukk u
No offense everyone ...
I've just re-read the recording article, mostly because I COULDN'T F*$KING BELIEVE IT the first time, and basically it's....... "This is how you record acoustic guitars and by the way, Ovation guitars are shit, I hate them, but that's OK, these instuctions will work anyway, doesn't matter what guitar you have"
The theory is totally valid, the content is not. What a F*$KING Wanker. |
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Location: Hicksville, NY | None taken Paul. I just happen to believe that there are better and more effective ways to vent out, and get the message across without the use of foul language [correct me if I'm wrong]. I wasn't in favor of the recording article either, and I think it was written out of utter ignorance and arrogance on the author's part -- just my .02 cents. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by ignimbyte:
None taken Paul. I just happen to believe that there are better and more effective ways to vent out... Well, sure, there's always pistols at dawn. Or, grenades at forty paces. Or...
:p
(I agree with your assertion, by the way; my flippancy notwithstanding) |
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Location: Scotland | I wasn't venting, and can't see much that would qualify as profanity and/or foul language. We are adults here, right? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | The Profane? Right next to the sacred.
It's only the hairstyle makes 'em look different. |
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Location: Australia | So what if you don't agree with the guys article.
Who really cares.
I couldn't care less what he says. It not like his anti Ovation bias is anything new.
It's alot of fulminating over nothing. |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | I appreciate your POV richard, just diagree with your conclusion. A lot of us here as part of our passion and appreciation of the 'beast', see it as part of our role to provide some enlightened guidance.
This could be to casual visitors like my daughters friend who thought taylors were the pinacle of accoustic guitar excellence til I let him play my ADII and pointed out that I got that and my Adamas 1685 12 string for the same money the one Taylor 800 series was going to cost him. He is now looking to buy an Adamas.
Could be at Sam Ash or Guitar Center where I make a point of bringing down the higher end O's from behind the rope to noodle on while I wait, and encourage other folks to try them (unpaid sales consultant).
Also includes addressing articles like this where a lot of non-guitar players who have influence will read this have prejudice's created or reinforced and are going to convince musicians who do have Ovations that they are using crap for their recording.
Evangelist/Missionary, call me what you want...it's all part of the job description when you get bitten by the Ovation bug....Ovations are good for recording...
AYA!...TESTIFY!!!! :) |
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Location: Orlando, FL | I'm with you Stuart. Some jerk with an opinion and a platform can influence a lot of reader's buying decisions, even more so if they’re impressed by his experience. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | It's a fine line. In my opinion being militant about your love for ovations and trying to shove it down the throat of every person for every application is equally as bad as those who write off ovation as plastic instruments not even worthy of consideration. I used to feel that it was my "duty" to to be an ovation evangelist. No more. Water will seek it's own level and people will buy what they want to buy. I work with a guy who spends the better part of his day telling me how I drive the wrong car, wear the wrong kind of socks and eat the wrong brand of breakfast cereal. Screw him. I'll buy, wear, eat and play whatever the freak I want, thank you very much. If someone ASKED for my opinion what guitar to buy I would offer some advice, and depending on the application might be an ovation, or maybe not. Unsolicited intervention can often work in the opposite way you expect. Just ask any telephone solicitor.
Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | Unsolicited intervention can often work in the opposite way you expect. Just ask any telephone solicitor. That's very true. If ya got a knack for gab and salesmanship it might work. If you come off like a fan-boy behind a pulpit you might scare people away.
Mrs. Slipkid & I went to Micky D's yesterday. I was wearing one of my many Ovation shirts. The guy behind me say's "You play Ovation guitars, eh?" And a nice 4 minute conversation ensued.
About the whole culture of "bowl bashing".... I say go ahead and dis-like anything your want. But at least dis-like them for the right reasons.
Reminds me of some words of wisdom..... "Don't hate anyone based the color of their skin. If you would just take the time & effort to get to know a person your're sure to find much better reasons to dis-like them." |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | "It's a fine line. In my opinion being militant about your love for ovations and trying to shove it down the throat of every person for every application is equally as bad as those who write off ovation as plastic instruments not even worthy of consideration."
I would agree with that, Dave, but I would also say there's not such a fine line between shoving your Ovation opinion down someone's throat and insisting on responsible journalism. If you're not into the sound an Ovation gives you in the studio, that's fine, but you should say you're not looking for that. That doesn't mean it's crap. Seems to me that a handful of somewhat accomplished artisits do appreciate that sound and get it in the studio. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I wasn't really commenting on the article in question, but more on homovation in general. We might think ovations are the best guitars in the world. But if they were the ONLY guitars in the world, it would sure be a shitty place.
As far as the article, I have no problem with what he wrote becuase it's just his opinion. If the writer thinks ovations are crap, that's fine with me. If he thinks they are gods gift to musicians and recording engineers, that's fine too.
I'm not telling YOU what to think, I'm just telling you what I think.
Dave |
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Location: NJ | anyone know why a j45 or 50 is the darling of the studio?
ok I will tell you. because they sound flat and have no dynamic range. therefore they are easy to eq.
but it is all about the eq now isn't it??? |
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Location: Scotland | Dave, I absolutely agree. The problem I have here is when the personal opinions of a perceived "expert" become misinformation in the public domain. Suggesting in a recording magazine that Ovation guitars need specific recording techniques to overcome their “shortcomings” is not only inaccurate, it’s also highly biased and irresponsible journalism. |
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| alpep, I definitely understand that. I played a custom-made studio D-18. It was made for it's flat response and lack of overtones. Great in the studio. Kind of plain sounding otherwise... |
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Location: CT | The Ovation guitar records fantastic in the studio. It just needs to be played by one of the top 5 guitar players in the world. Has anyone ever heard of Jordan Ri......Uh, never mind. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Paul, I see your point. Dave
PS - Please don't agree with me. It can make us both look bad!
PPS - For those serious recording folks here (not me) just curious what percentage of you mic the guitar only, or blend mic and direct. I should start a poll but I hate those damn things. |
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| I recorded my 1767 'blended'. A mike at the 12th fret, a mike near the bottom of the bowl, and line-out mike. |
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Location: CT | In the studio, you need a mic. End of story. If you wanna plug in the piezo anyway fine, it can be blended in for a tonal change, or maybe run it to the effects rack while the mic stays clean or whatever. But a decent mic is a must. |
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Location: Scotland | In the studio you need 2 mics. End of story |
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Location: CT | ohhh SNAP! |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | I plug it straight in. But I don't want any of you to do that 'cause it's MY sound.
:p
Besides, I'm lazy. If I can record two tracks at a time (vox + rhythme, lead + harmony, bass + Oooo Oooos) I'm all over that. |
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Location: closely held secret | I blend. Sometimes. Sometimes I don't. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "PPS - For those serious recording folks here (not me) just curious what percentage of you mic the guitar only, or blend mic and direct. I should start a poll but I hate those damn things."
I listen to the guitar, the room, and based on the players style and descriptions of what they might want, add in my own tastes and opinions as guidance only, I do whatever it takes. Most of the time it's two mic's in the standard placement, as a few have mentioned. But, sometimes it's been direct with a mic, more mics (I've used up to 5 I think), for Broadcast I have used one or the direct... it all depends on the situation.
I can't say it enough. Use your ears. I have gone into the studio, placed the mics near the "standard" position, and had it sound like crap no matter how I moved them. It had to do with how the guy was playing. I was getting more strings, pick, and general noise than music. So I just put on the headsets, walked the directional condenser around, up and down until I found "the spot" and worked from there. The spot was aiming at an angle at his hands from about 1 foot out from behind the bridge. Sounded great. Tried to leave it there for the next tune.... nope, back to a more normal placement. Ya just have to listen. |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | Have done all three depending. Typically I mike my W597 12 " off the 12 fret and take the DI too. I then blend, pan about 1/3 apart and balance the two tracks til I get what I want. Also have taken the DI only through my Fishman Aura pedal with the Ovation 1771 model to get a more natural sound.
When I had the Martin OMC Aura I used to take that direct from the onboard Aura.
Typically if the Acoustic was upfront in the mix I wanted a nice mic'd full sound so would sweep the D'I down in the mix but panned 1/3 away from the Mic track which was now more dominant. If it was rhythm guitar in a lounder mix with drum and other instruments, I wound up the DI for more of that piezo sizzle and quack :-)
I am with Miles, use your ears, play around and have fun. |
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Location: Slightly northwest of Trader Jim | The only thing that makes the O's I play sound bad,is my playing :D |
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Recording Magazine Article - Grrrr makes me angry