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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | I was listening to Stonebobbo's son's MP3 (see 'more family fun') and explored more of Stonebobbo's songs on the site. What a great, distinctive voice. It got me thinkin about my lack of ability/talent in this area...
...again!
Many people can just SING. They just open their damn mouths, and the sound that comes out is magical. It annoys the hell outa me.
My question is - is there anyone out there who couldn't sing - couldn't get a decent sound out of their mouth, but took lessons and LEARNED how to sing?
Is it possible for me to LEARN how to sing, or is it a case of you've either got it, or ya don't?
(BTW, I'm not tone deaf - I've been known to tune a guitar to concert pitch by ear.)
PS. Stonebobbo, it that a 1768 in the photo? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I used to be a very bad singer. But now I am really good. Nobody has actually told me that, but I know it's true.
I think it is possible to learn to IMPROVE anything - singing, playing, etc. But everyone has a ceiling and for some of us it is dangerously low. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try breaking through it.
Dave |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Matt Smith covers this in one of his clinics. Basically it's a long hard road and you only get so you can sing by doing it over and over.
I used to be horrible. Now after several months of working at it I'm just pretty bad.
So, now at the Saturday night of the Mike Dowling clinic when we all play and sing for each other we'll see who is telling the truth, Dave or me. |
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Location: Colorado | Wow Dave!! You would make a great audition contestant on American Idol. I mean you would probably get five whole minutes of camera time including telling us all how good you were before you sang, then your rant afterwards as to why the judges just were against you from the moment you walked in the room.
The sarcasm in your first sentence was jumping off the screen at me. I couldn't resist. Sarcasm aside, Dave makes great points in the second paragraph. As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Yeah, I know. We should all take our advice from Harry Callahan. But I think it fits along with what Dave said.
Some people are just born with it, others work hard to only become mediocre at it while being frustrated the entire time. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | When I put in my practice time, I always include songs with lyrics. Over time you just get better at it. I guess I treat my voice as a harmony instrument, basically getting into the range of the chord being played on the guitar, and then speaking at that chord level, and then changing with the chord changes. I'm a long way away from treating the voice as a lead instrument. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Individual voice lessons from a qualified voice teacher might help. They will assist in providing you with proper technique, but will not overcome a total lack of tonal quality. |
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Location: NJ | Just Do It (and keep doing it).
If you can arrange/afford a couple lessons from a vocal coach, it helps (at least with some of the basic "mechanics" of singing.
In the late 70's/early 80's, there was a school in Manhattan run by PaulSimon's brother, Eddie called the GuitarStudyCenter. Their policy was that if you enrolled in a class, you could arrange to "sit in" on ANY other class (providing there was an open chair). I signed-up for Voice classes, and audited a couple guitar classes over the course of the day (these were Saturday classes). I was already ABLE to sing when I took the classes, but I couldn't take the Advanced Class without taking this one, first (I never did "re-up" when the course was over). The class DID help with a lot of the phrasing, projection, etc. (a lot of "la-la-la, mi-mi-mi, ma-ma-ma, ti-ti-ti, ta-ta-ta, and so on . . .)
While I'm fortunate enough to have a pretty decent range, and there's not a lot of songs that I "can't" sing, whenever we we run through a new song that I've never sung aloud before, the first two or three run-throughs can have a pretty decent amount of "cringe factor" to them.
It's kind of like the "finger memeory" that you inherently develop to learn chord changes. The more you "do it", you start to feel/memorize "where" in your throat you have to "go" to hit a specific (or succession) of note(s). Practicing in an environment that has a bit of natural "reverb" to it helps you to develop, as well.
Just Keep Doing It.
(btw: singing into a microphone is a whole "nuther animal" altogether . . .) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cwk2:
So, now at the Saturday night of the Mike Dowling clinic when we all play and sing for each other we'll see who is telling the truth, Dave or me. I'll be wrapping to a boom box. Dave
PS - Bill, do you have a boombox I can borrow? Saves carrying one on the plane. And a Fubu jacket? |
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Location: NJ | ". . So, now at the Saturday night of the Mike Dowling clinic when we all play and sing for each other we'll see who is telling the truth, Dave or me . ."
Wish I could be a "fly on the wall" for THAT one . . . |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Another helpful hint is to avoid "Bob Dylan Kareoke Night" at the Eagles Hall.
Less volume and more accuracy.
I have been out of practice for about a year. I might have to actually start an excersize program and get some instruction to get back into it.
Even if you only have two good notes - use them. |
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Location: SoCal | Wish I could be a "fly on the wall" for THAT one . . .
Oh yeah!
Clifford's right on his points. Working at it can make you a better, more confident singer. I remember reading a Rolling Stone article 20 some odd years ago on Huey Lewis. When he was in college, he was so bad and wanted to sing with anybody that would let him. Trouble was, nobody would let him. But he stayed with it and made a million bucks from his singing.
The other factor involved, tho', is what I call the "it" factor (Bill's talked about this with guitars). And that's a pressence that some people just have. I'm pretty certain that it can be developed, like your voice, but if you've got it, it can make good singing great and if you don't, it can make great singing just mediocre. Clifford's got "it". He draws people in when he plays and sings. In all honesty, I don't have it ("Man's got to know his limitations"). People listen politely but that's it.
There's a whole lot more to good singing than just being blessed with a good voice...... |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
There's a whole lot more to good singing than just being blessed with a good voice...... Remembering the words helps, too... |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Having watched... Coached 3 different garage bands out of my house. I give this advise.
The cover song you play is "yours". Make it yours.
You can whisper, slurr, talk your way through a lot of music. You do "need" tone... (IE not tone deaf)
A teacher will do good things with breathing and projection. As for range... Not so much.
In my past life I had a First Tenor (high male choir voice)that was going to win me a scholarship
to Purdue University. My Junior year in HS I had my tonsils out and... I became a boring avg 2nd tenor baratone.
Lot's of "big" entertainers "can't" sing... But, deliver one hell of a show. ie Neal Dimond comes to mind.
Get the "me-me-me-me" projected out of the voice box. Take a swig of your favorite beverage and let it rip.
Woz |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I hate to actually be nice to Cliff, but his saying that he has a "decent" range is quite an understatememt. He's got a gift that many of us (myself included) would love to have a little of. The guy can f___in' SING.
As for myself, I think I can say that I have a "decent" range, but to expand on the discussion of "knowing you limitations", I try to pick songs that fit my voice and range, or to change keys in order not to blow my voice out with 2 hours of a gig left to do.
If I were doing a studio project, I would be much more likely to "push it" more, but when I have to do a 3 or 4 hour gig, I'm constantly thinking about conserving my voice as much as I can. |
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Location: NJ | ". . Less volume and more accuracy . ."
Sorry Mike, but I kinda' disagree . . .
I'm a firm believer of singing to "the back of the room".
Singing with a degree of volume invokes assertion & confidence, and that in itself gives you the ability to "stretch" and/or make corrections in your pitch. Once you've achieved that, it's easer to "reign yourself in" (and still retain that accuracy) at quieter volumes.
When Rick & I first started playing together, he did a MINIMAL amount of singing. When he did, he shyly sang at low volume focusing at just staying "on pitch". I was constantly whispering "sing louder!" to him out of the side of my mouth while he was singing. It got to the point where I would literally (at gigs,) swipe him in the back of the head to sing louder.
Recently his bro-in-law came to see us, and was utterly AMAZED at how well Rick now sings.
His singing has improved exponentially (though I still publicly tell him he sucks). |
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Location: NJ | "I hate to actually be nice to Cliff . . ."
WHY is it that so many sentences around here begin with that?? . . . . |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Attitude!
The key ingredient. I should have finished my thought. When it comes time to practice you should conserve, as John says.
And let the amplification do its job. Good monitoring can save a lot of pain.
But a good smack off-side the head can be good... for the Giver at least. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Originally posted by cliff:
"I hate to actually be nice to Cliff . . ."
WHY is it that so many sentences around here begin with that?? . . . . I, for one, have taken enough abuse from you to use that "intro" at will ........ |
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Location: NJ | ". . But a good smack off-side the head can be good... for the Giver at least. . ."
If you've never seen Rick & I together, you have NO idea how true that statement can be . . . |
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Location: SoCal | I don't hate to be nice to Clifford, I can be nice or mean as the situation calls for. It's just that the situation doesn't call for nice very often..... |
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Location: NJ | It IS what it IS . . . |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by cliff:
"I hate to actually be nice to Cliff . . ."
WHY is it that so many sentences around here begin with that?? . . . . You have to ask???
(Nice quiet political statement, btw! I don't agree, but I was feeling the very same way about 01.20.81, 01.20.95 and 01.20.01.) |
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Location: NJ | (I have absolutely NO idea what you're alluding to, but)
It IS what it IS . . . |
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Location: closely held secret | ...I believe that depends on what your definition of is is...... |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Bob Dylan
Leonard Cohen
Doug Bennet
Neil Diamond
If these people can get paid to sing, so can you.
Join a choir for a little while to learn pitch and harmony. Learn what your range is, and how far you can push it.
Singing is almost as important as laughing. Do both every day, especially laughing. There is always some kind of sound that you can make with your face that will be entertaining...go find it. |
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Location: NJ | Add Springsteen to that list, as well . . .
I heartily agree about the "choir" thing. It's a real good way t'learn. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Okay, I gotta ask...what's the code?
01.20.09
???????
January 20, 2009
Cliff gets his next haircut...! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Great thread.
As brutal as it is at times, recording yourself helps.
Woody.... I think you have a great voice. Please have it tuned up in time for the next tour.
So many things come into play besides just hitting the note. Cliff's "singing to the back of the room" is a good example. I'm working on "Halleujah". I'm finding that it's a song where you can't just hit the notes and remember the words. If you don't put any passion into it, it just falls flat.
I wish I had Cliff's range and more importantly, his passion. Your my hero, Cliff!! But I'm not going to let that stop me for doing the best I'm capable of. Every time you strike a chord and open your mouth you take a risk that your'e going to hit a bum note. But it's to much fun not to try. |
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| Your voice is an 'instrument'...singing is 'speaking with sustain' as they say, and anyone can learn to tune their instrument, as it were, and sing... (I actually think Dylan could sing a straight tone, he just don't want to... :) ) |
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Location: NJ | ". . Every time you strike a chord and open your mouth you take a risk that your'e going of hit a bum note. But it's to much fun not to try . ."
'zACTly. |
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Location: closely held secret | It's the day all the libs are excited about. New President day.
Some of us just hope it's not another 'day of infamy'... |
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Location: SoCal | In the summer, I get together on Friday nites with a jam group that meets outside. Lotta people come to listen and I'm very aware when it's my turn to play and sing that I need to project. Gotta be willing to push it.... Oddly enough, I can never remember seeing anybody when I play or sing. I know I'm not looking down at my guitar, but I really don't know what I'm looking at. |
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Location: Isle of Man, UK | I do a lot of singing, and have picked up a few tips from coaches along the way.
Don't strain it. The voice is just a muscle - you must MUST MUST warm it up first or you'll damage it. Just a few simple exercises will do it. Either that or start out quietly before you really start to push it.
Don't push it. If you can't hit a note, then the only thing to do is work up to it - don't push for it and reach for it, as you'll just damage things.
Breathe. You can't sing without it!
I can vouch for all this - In the show I'm doing at the moment I have to belt (i.e. not a nice falsetto) a top D [10th fret of the high E string for most of us]. Not bad for someone who was singing bass 4 years ago...
If you get into serious singing, I would say that your best bet is to get some pro help - they will teach you what to do, what not to do, how to breathe, how to get that air out in the right way...
Best of all, though - enjoy. It can be a good workout, and I love the feeling I get after singing - gets oxygen moving around, ups the heart rate etc. Fabtastic!!
JB |
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Location: NJ | If y'wanna sing better, sing standing up (you can breathe and flex you diaphragm better).
(I don't know why, but I also seem to sing better when I'm bare-footed - maybe it's a "comfort"-thing") |
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Location: closely held secret | I think you're right, Cliff. I sing better barefoot as well. I play better, too. Sandals are a nice compromise. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by fillhixx:
Bob Dylan
Leonard Cohen
Doug Bennet
Neil Diamond
If these people can get paid to sing, so can you.
Join a choir for a little while to learn pitch and harmony. Learn what your range is, and how far you can push it.
Singing is almost as important as laughing. Do both every day, especially laughing. There is always some kind of sound that you can make with your face that will be entertaining...go find it. add me to that list.
I always wind up singing. I never liked my voice but was forced into it since no one else wanted to do it.
FWIW people seem to say "al has an INTERESTING voice"
ok I get it just like saying "she has a beautiful face"
it's code |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | ...reminds me of the old Steve Martin bit (from the "wild and crazy guy" days)
"My friends singing teacher was sick, and I mean SICK! He kept wanting her to sing ...from her diaphragm!!! |
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| Cliff, When you stand you have better natural support from the body's diaphram, which helps control the lungs and the muscles used to move your vocal chords. Good advice JB...reminds me of the techniques we learned in music school. After that it's all range, dynamics, interpretation.. |
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Location: NJ | what did you do with the money?
what money?
the money your mother gave you for singing lessons! |
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Location: NJ | ". . what did you do with the money?
what money?
the money your mother gave you for singing lessons! . ."
- asked of Ringo Starr.
His response:
"I spent it on Fish&Chips" |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Todd G.:
Wow Dave!! You would make a great audition contestant on American Idol. Why do you people insist on encouraging him?
My brother can sing like a fu¢king bird. Right from the womb (petri dish?). I've spent his entire life resenting him for it, though I sure do enjoy hearing him cante... |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by alpep:
FWIW people seem to say "al has an INTERESTING voice"
ok I get it just like saying "she has a beautiful face"
Al, I think the phrase you're looking for is "Yeah, but she's got a great personality!"
I think your voice is fine, it fits the styles of music you seem to like. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | "ok I get it just like saying "she has a beautiful face"
Actually, I think that one is "she's fun at a party" |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Sing! Sing with passion and conviction! Sing with joy and abandon!
If we learned nothing else from Mrs Millers recording 'back in the day' (and Tiny Tim) it's that even bad can be good if it's get enough heart in it. |
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Location: SoCal | Dave "Just call me William Huong" Witko..... Gotta nice ring to it..... |
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Location: USA | This is going to sound so cloche...
But your voice is an instrument. The more you work with it the better you get.
When you're driving along in your vehicle ...listen to your favorite music...now dont try to match pitch for pitch...because you do not want to hurt or strain...but start out in a low octive. Keep one range...sing it all the way through until there is no cracking of your voice...then hit a highr octive...etc...youll know when youve come to your full voice.
Then go back and put it all thogether to find your own voice in what you've worked with. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Dave "Just call me William Huong" Witko..... THAT's what he meant when he said, "I'm Will Huong!"
I gotta get my ears checked.... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Range...
I have precisely 1/4 octave range... and would have to tune down to "D" to be in my natural range...
... though I've been told I have a great radio voice (and face to match... sorta like the girl with a great personality who's fun at parties) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "Will Houng"....
hee-hee. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Dave "Just call me Well Hung" Witko..... Gotta nice ring to it..... I agree.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | I don't think that's quite what I posted...... |
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Location: big island | Seth Riggs has a program that has helped me sing better. Here's the link:
http://www.singersadvantage.com/ |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Tupperware:
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Dave "Just call me Well Hung" Witko..... Gotta nice ring to it..... I agree.
Dave |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | What happens in Connecticut stays in Connecticut... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Just to get sorta back to it, pick the right songs for yourself. There are some that suit you better and some you just shouldn't think of trying.
Paul I seem to remember you saying that people were always polite and listened when you played and sang, and let them see your gun on your belt.
Dave, if you want to walk about 3 blocks over and three blocks down from where the dinner is you'll be in the hood and I'm sure you can score a boomer there. You may need Paul and his "accessory" mentioned above to get back outta there.
Have we started being nice to Cliff yet or was that just the rumor? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | My take on the subject...singing is one of those things that is all about attitude. You have to sing your song. It is pretty rare to be able to do a competent job of copying the style of someone else.
I also want to echo the comments above about warming up. For me, it comes in two stages. The first warm up I do is before we start playing. I just run through some stuff, humming it up and down as low and as high as I can comfortably manage. Just gets things loosened up. Generally, my voice doesn't really open up until I have been singing hard for 20 minutes or so. I can absolutely feel when that happens...my range goes up a ton and my control improves.
The most important thing is to sing a lot. Between my bar band and my church group, I probably sing 10 to 12 hours a week these days, and it really helps. The more you sing, the better you will get.
And I also want to echo the other point: You don't have to sing well to be a good singer. The "American Idol" style singer is fine, but those folks are rare. You can still be enormously entertaining with an average voice. But you have to bring something else...some personality, some charisma, some mojo. Do that, and you are golden. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by fillhixx:
The GREAT thing about singing in bars... (there's only two. one is getting paid.)....is that near closing time you and everyone in the place magically become fantaaastic! singers. "S - A - T U R-D A Y......NIGHT!
S - A - T U R-D A Y......NIGHT!
S - A - T U R-D A Y......NIGHT!" |
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Location: south east Michigan | Yeah... you gotta "sell" the song but there is danger there, too. I don't want to "over" sell the song. That could be just as disasterous as missing the notes. It could be a very fine line between the two.
When you start to think about it there are so many factors to be aware of like does the next song somewhat fit in with the last song. |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | The thing was, that I came up through the Mick Jagger/Bob Dylan school of singing. I wish I would have taken singing a lot more seriously. It was mostly attitude then, rather then melodic notes, that flowed on pitch. I find that I could sing good on John Prine tunes, but don't think I would attempt Sinatra. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I can't believe you got to 5 pages already without me. I don't have much to add, but emphasize those who called the voice a muscle. I think some people just can't tell whether they are off key, but there are those that can't seem to hear it. If you can tune the guitar by ear, you're probably not one of those.
Singing to the back of the room is fine, but in a choir context you're going to learn soft and loud. One of the problems with singing softly is that you may not be able to hear yourself and may stray off pitch. A friend in high school supposedly ruined his voice by singing to the radio turned way up so he could hear it while he drove the combine in the summer. I'm not so sure he was ever that good.
Work on your falsetto. I lost a couple octaves of range when I quit singing and playing guitar for a few years.
If you go to church, sing along. It will help the voice and your ability to read music. Plus the people are usually charitable and there's always some loud guy that's worse than you.
I don't know if there's anything you can do to fix a voice with bad tonal quality, but singing from your diaphragm will help take the nasal tone out, unless you want to sing like Bob Dylan. In that case, forget anything anyone said in the last 5 pages. |
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| Mussa; I have always been lucky enough to be one of the guy's that seems to be able to sing and sing fairly well. I can say I do not know if you could take a voice that does not sound very good and make it belt out beautiful music but I can say for a fact that I used to be able to "almost" hit many of Jon Andersons vocal workouts with YES. Somehow with repetative work I became able to sing more than 20 of their songs. And it Mean I could sing em! Hit every dam note! Copied his soft little parts and the high high's. I did a demo sent it out to a few contacts and got a hit from someone that has an interesting and unexpected connection with the big leagues. I was wondering if I could perhpas find my way to a tribute band ro something. The MPS's were good enough that I got one recording session paid for by a guy who is working on a CD and eard me, I got a note back from the guy in the big leagues. To my amazement I got the second best answer you can get when sending a demo to the big show. "They wanted more vocal work" This is good.....and I was given three YES albums to sing what ever I could do from them and then anything I wanted to do after that.
I practiced and waited and waited for the guy in the goddam studio to get me in to do this and what happens....................The day I get there my voice craps out! I have Lost my Freekin Voice!!!!!!!! I have not been able to sing the Peter Gabriel I always use as practice on nor anything High at all since January 4th..........
Now a guy like me who is just a self taught player and not an exceptional talent but found he had a wonderful and very rare talent to be able to copy quite well a guy who is a world class singer. Well I do not know what is wrong with me but I try and keep moisture in the home and I am not sick?? But I can't sing and I think I have blown this opertunity for good from the email I got from the guy who was sending my stuff on to whomever and wherever they were.
So I guess what I am saying is YES you can teach a voice new things perhaps not everything but you can also loose it along the way as well.
I am baffled about what to do. I have gone through the 5 steps of death and dying concerning my voice. I am at acceptance with it now and hoping it will just return when it's ready. I can't fix it, I have tried everything I know.
So good luck man! Even when you get the voice working good vocals are a living instrument and way to delicate to be reliable.
Be a guitarist, if it's in tune you stand a chance of hitting the right frets!
Randy |
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Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Wow. Starting a topic and getting 5 pages of informative and encouraging responses within 24 hours gives me a warm, fluffy, gooey feeling.
Thanks all, and lay off Cliff, eh! He da man!
OK, so what have I learned? Sing standing up, barefoot, while driving the car, to the people in the back seat. That's gonna freak out the guys I drive to work.
Seriously, I might have to read through the whole thing again and take notes.
My next thread will be 'How do I play guitar better?' ;)
BTW, yeah, Mark, I was wondering if you were gonna chip in. |
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Joined:
May 2005
Posts: 486
Location: North Carolina | When I did musical theater, they often cast poor or non/singers in principal roles because they looked right or read well, hoping they could coach them through the songs. Never happened and was often painful for the audience.
You can improve someone's look or coach their acting in short order, but you cannot teach them to sing in six weeks.
Given enough time, you can learn to sing reasonably well. But remember, your voice is your voice; what you will improve is control. You can, you will, do it. It's fun, enjoy it. |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | JustDoIt. |
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singing