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Location: Warren,Pa. | This is not an Ovation topic, but I'm concerned it could be some day. Read in the MF catalog about the new Epi's coming out of China w/solid top, back, and sides...spruce/rosewood w/an ultralight case for $700. Now I know that a "made in China" guitar isn't a "Made in Conn." guitar, but I find myself looking at Chinese guitars with a lot less disdain than I used to...especially looking at those Epiphones. It seems logical to assume that China will get better at this over time, and that, except for the high-end guitars, they could compete quite well with the U.S. I know I've said a bad thing here...but I just felt a red flag go up on my insides when I read that article. John. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | It's what's going to happen John, and fast. You're just getting ready for it. |
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Location: NJ | IMHO the reissue Danelectros were the first guitars made in china that brought credibility to thier product. they were playable and sounded ok and if you swapped the tuners and got the upgraded bridge you may not have spent the extra bucks for a jerry jones.
Hamer recently converted their import line to china and many other companies will follow. the quality of the product for the price is stellar.
When I started, my dad bought me a POS acoustic made in holland and I have no clue why I even stuck with playing. The marvel electric he bought me a couple of years later was not much better. Today the quality of entry level instruments is fantastic compared to what it was in the sixties. If a kid does not learn to play now it is because they did not want to learn. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | According to my sources, one of whom is opening a factory in china, in 9 years, in the urban centers, the chinese will be operating on a first world level in business. In the country side it'll take a lot longer but for the urban people it'll be just in time for the olympics. |
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Location: Waurika OK | Al you probably stuck with it because you had not played a "good" guitar. Probably all of us that started back then, for me it was the fifties, didn't know any difference.
Things of quality coming from China are here now, guitars are just one of those things.
When I was a kid everything from Japan was classified as "tin junk" they overcame that, although it took quite a few years. With the technology we have now, and the global economy, and instant communication, things move at a faster pace.
Perhpas there is an upside to this. If we all, USA, China, etc. realize our dependency on one another, we might get along better.
noel |
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Posts: 295
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | This issue of inexpensive imports came up in another thread some time ago. I suppose it is good news for us as guitar "consumers" but, as I pointed out in that earlier thread, buying made-in-the-U.S. (my Elite, my Martin, my on-order Adamas)or made-in-Canada (my Marc Beneteau acoustics) puts money in the pockets of my fellow U.S. and Canadian citizens (call me maudlin, but I think of you guys south of the border as my fellow citizens in fortress North America).
My guitars may be expensive, but they are also quality goods, and I don't have to ship them to China for warranty repair if something goes kablooey. |
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Posts: 146
Location: Ct./ USA | It is all a matter of what you play HOW RICH YOU ARE and what sound you produce. If made in friggin china rocks your world so be it. I personally would not buy any instrument made any where else than the USA. Let China be for China the got a bizzillion friggen people to buy their cheep instruments. Go ahead play, make my day. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Duncan, you brought up one of the reasons the overseas guitars cost less. They don't need to worry about warranty repairs. |
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Posts: 888
Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | I've been to China twice now and will be there again in Feb. My company sends me to set up production lines and teach the Chinese in 3 weeks, what it took Americans many years to develop. It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach everytime I go.
The reason for the low cost Chinese products has very little to do with the cheap labor. It has mostly to do with the comparatively strong US dollar to the far weaker Chinese dollar. To the best of my knowledge, each country's currency floats based on international markets and demand for that currency. However, the Chinese government has fixed the Chinese dollar by declaring it is worth 1/8th of a US dollar. This is called "pegging" the American Dollar. In other words, when the US dollar goes down in value, so does the Chinese dollar and vice versa. If the Chinese government stopped pegging our dollar, the Renenbie as it's called would increase substantially against our dollar and all those cheap Chinese imports would become far more expensive.
I still try my damndest to buy American made products...even when it doesn't make financial sense. Unfortunately, I've found that economic patriotism is pretty shallow in most people. Everyone says they want to buy American products but if a Chinese product is cheaper, they slip it right in their shopping bag.
Remember, Walmart not only slashes prices, they slash American jobs too!
By the way, I'm getting sick of Walmart. In our area, they're popping up on every street corner like McDonalds. When I went to China, my hosts took me to Walmart to shop! Yuck. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | There are Wumart stores in china that directly compete with walmart. They out walmart, walmart. Look out for a wumart near you soon. Makes me sick too. |
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Location: Scotland | Time to get real guys. China is the production centre of the planet and it is not about to change real soon. There will always be a market for quality domestic product though it will never be affordable to the masses and the masses want to pay bottom dollar. Unfortunately Western manufacturing can no longer do affordable. Large musical instrument companies stay alive by selling affordable instruments in huge volume. The professional/serious enthusiast market is negligible by comparison.
StellarJim is absolutely correct, The Renmimbi exchange rate mirrors the US dollar pro rata & Chinese factories quote FOB wholesale prices in USD. But.... China is cheap because the workforce in an average factory earns the equivalent of around 17 cents an hour, not because of "exchange rate pegging". 8 X 17 cents doesn't come close to mimimum wage in the West, regardless of the current exchange rate
There seems to be a feeling that "made in China" means a poor-quality product, which is not neccesarily true. The Hercules stands which are distributed in the US by Kaman & are very popular on this board are of Chinese origin & there's little else comes anywhere close, regardless of cost or country of manufacture
The situation will change, as it already has in Japan & Korea. China will eventually become too expensive, by which time the product quality will be much improved (though it is getting better daily from the products I see) Vietnam & Indonesia are becoming strong manufacturing bases, not so much for the music industry, but it'll get there, Peavey are already there.
China is currently importing around 2 million barrels of crude-oil per day & using a significant proportion of the worlds steel production and there are worldwide financial and supply repercussions as a result. So it's cheap guitars on one hand and expensive gas on the other. It's a no-win situation.
I'm off to China in a few weeks for the Shanghai music trade fair, so I may have some first-hand music industry insight on my return. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Paul,
You are going to have an extremely interesting trip. I've only been to guanzhou and hainan, and of course HK, on family trips. I've heard shanghai is really happening, I hope you can share your observations on the music scene when you come back. Only tip I have is keep an eye on your bags when in a crowded train station and leaving taxis. Oh yeah, if you go out of the city, bring sani wipes, because they generally don't believe in napkins in the restaurants or toilet paper in the public toilets which are usually of the squat variety. I'm not kidding. When in rome, do as the romans do.
Bon voyage! |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Paul:
I'm looking forward to hearing about your Shanghai trip. I understand the reality is China will manufacture the world's products for the forseeable future. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. After my last trip, my small company laid off the 6 workers that used to build the product I took over. A layoff of 6 employees won't make the news but it sure is important to the people that lost jobs. These are real people.
I think the difference for me is that I see it from the manufacturing side of the table. Our purchasing people view going to China like it's a trip to the candy store. Depends on your perspective I suppose. As for the labor rate, we used to build a product in Ohio for $22 which included $2 labor. If you take every penny of labor out of the product, the parts would still cost $20. We now buy it from China through a US company that marks it up, for $12. This price includes shipping. There's no real way to compete with that domestically and that's why I believe the exchange rate has a lot to do with the unbelievably low prices.
Finally, the Chinese quality is usually pretty good. It has a lot ot do with the American and European companies that have opened factories there and taken the Chinese to a high level in a short time.
Sorry for getting so far off the subject of Ovation guitars. It would truly be a sad time for me to read some day the Ovation Connecticut factory has closed it's doors. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | All
GREAT discussion, I never learned so much about China in years of reading newspapers from one end to the other.
My son bought me a Chinese made F style mandolin because it looked good and seemed to sound good. I had to do some setting up that corrected some manufacturing mistakes, bridge was screwed, intonation off, the thing suddenly begin to sound like a Gibson F style mandolin and it looks great. I had to search my mind for a comparison, and it came to me, the beautiful Chinese furniture that my contemperaries brought back from military assignments in China in the late 40's after the end of the WWII while we were still allies.
The Chinese are master woodworkers and it shows up on my mandolin. THERE IS TROUBLE IN RIVER CITY.
Bailey |
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Made in China
