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| Random quote: "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!" - Alex Pepiak |
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | hold it now I gotta jump in here. You take a mixer photocopy the circuit board then make your own amp and call it your own??? that's what they did, the same with their amp which is a cheezy copy of a tech 21 design. Fine be a reliable cheap gear company but do it on your own designs. Don't copy the gear of your competitors and produce it until they can get you in court, by that time you say fine we will pay you x dollars and you had 6 years to develop your own. I have no time for these types of business practices. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7247 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well that's sort of what happened, but not really. According to our US Supreme Court copying a circuit is NOT illegal in itself. Copying and then using the same components on that circuit board is a different story, which is why no one paid anyone any money and after several counter suits by both parties, they both went off to separate corners to lick their wounds. I mean it's not like they copied a well known headstock design and called it a new guitar or anything. :) Personally I think everyone missed the BIG point of how, if it was a copy, was Behringer able to put it in a better box, make it moduler and offer it for 1/5th the price. More importantly, why is the Mackie stuff so expensive? Just as we say with guitars to "buy with your ears" I chose a similar tact with electronics. I have been inside Mackie and Behringer products along with many others. My Yamaha mixers are better designed at more than 1/2 the price of the similar Mackie's and the Behringers are along the lines of my Allen & Heath. November 8, 1999 – Woodinville, WA – Mackie Designs Inc. (NASDAQ: MKIE) and Behringer Spezielle StudioTechnick GmbH announced today that the Companies have resolved all pending legal disputes between the parties. Under the agreement, the terms are to remain confidential and therefore, there will be no further or additional comment. The parties acknowledge that they are pleased with the outcome of this settlement and look forward to participating in friendly competition in the future with their respective brands. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Miles I agree that Mackie is not the best laid out that a mixer could be and I have no desire to own one yet they are everywhere. Isn't mackie owned by Sam Ash? I know Samson is. Anyway in reference to the court decision. With my ex employer I signed an agreement that we would both not disclose the results of the settlement but there was one and I one. I sincerly doubt that no money changed hands there. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | I fished around and got some info on the Mackie Behringer situation. Mackie is a publicly held company, with 65% owned by Sun Financial. Behringer is owned by Richie Ash with a couple of partners. The suit with Behringer and Mackie was settled because Sam Ash Music is Mackie's biggest customer. I doubt if money did not change hands. Mackie is currently building product in Washington, Italy (RCF), Massachusetts (EAW), and guess where all of the low end mixers are being made in China. I called Mackie the Tapco of the milenium well I was not too far off since Greg Mackie designed the tapco stuff. I smell some industry incest here. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7247 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Lol.. that is funny. I was doing the similar research. The only additional piece I have is that besides Samson, there was appearently a "Sam Ash" like of Behringer, or it may have just been the Samson gear (the wording made it unclear). Also Sweetwater sound got involved because they won't carry Sam Ash (Samson) or Behringer only Mackie. The ownership of Behringer is a little murkie.. I think Sam Ash owns the US distro only. There are 3 or 4 companies that make up Behringer now, but I believe Urei Behringer still owns BEHRINGER International GmbH. However... I found this..." BEHRINGER Holdings in Singapore serves as the group’s global operations headquarters overseeing and coordinating the activities of the many BEHRINGER subdivisions and subsidiaries." I'm starting to think Behringer and Mackie are the same company underneath it all and the lawsuit was an advertising stunt. sheeeeeesh.... | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Miles One more thing. So the supreme court ruled it is not illegal to copy a circuit. That begs the question "Is it ethical?" I know you have a love for Behringer gear but just that business practice has to make you stomach churn. I remember you looking at the Ovation copies at the Namm show in disgust, well the same defense could be made for them that you make for the mixer and amp in question. Since I am not a fan mackie products I really cannot comment on theirs but I do know the Tech 21 amp that was copied and I do happen to know some of the folks at tech 21 and I think they make a superior product. I find it not fair that their amp design would be copied and sold against their own market. Think about this. I do not want to stock product X. I own both the retail outlet and the manufacturer. I have the manufacturer copy product X so I can put it in my store to compete with X and put them out of business. Sorry I just cannot agree with these types of business practices. Just to verify I have never taken any business courses and according to many I have a lot to learn about business but what the hell do I know I only sell gear for a living! | ||
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| TRboy |
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Joined: February 2003 Posts: 2178 Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Hey Al, Do you answer your emails??? Mike :( | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | I try to. I get between 50 and 100 e mails a day. Some fall through the cracks. if you e mailed me last weekend Fri, Sat, sun I was away and it was possible that it got lost in the shuffle. I will go back and check for yours and see what it is about. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7247 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well AL, I wrote the big long unfinished post below.. (I decided not to delete it)... and decided to make a better use of this thread with a question that may help others looking at gear. Do you know of ANY product line that has similar devices to Behringer, with similar features? I searched and could not find any. I have a short-list of key features that although are not part of any of the units overal function, really put the line over the top for value. - Automatic servo controlled inputs to balance any standard line impedance and voltage to any other ON ALL PRODUCTS in the line. - XLR and TRS Jacks on ALL PRODUCTS in the line, in the same location for easy racking. - Presets or "Auto" functions that are actually useable in the real world. - Clear consice instructions that use realworld examples of use of each piece of gear and how it interacts with others. My research included Lexicon, Digitech, BBE and Alesis and all are at a minimum twice the price of Behringer (Lexicon is about 5 times more) and none of these lines have the above features, and none of these lines have all of the products. So far I found some products like Focusrite Red that is similar. The Focusrite Red Dual Mic pre-amp has all of the features that are on that Behringer I picked up at GC except for the above keylist. The Focusrite is on sale now at Musicians Friend for $1,699.99 The Behringer unit is actually a Tube preamp and is on sale for $199.99 :) Obviously the Focusrite is a better unit, but is it $1,300 dollars better and can I really hear that 1,300 dollar difference or as someone recently posted... do I just hear a metalic "clunk" =============================================== I don't see the ethics problem in this case. It's not an ethics issue for both Ford and Chevy to make a car. They both have wheels, engines, drive trains... they are the same. Behringer and Mackie products do not even look similar as cars do. Behringer also used better components and has more features. That's why the Mackie suit was laughable. I like the Behringer stuff cause I can't find anything close in quality/price.... I mean, flat out.. not even close.. and there is so much value added by using the line. because of features like like the servo inputs on ALL of the mixers and outboard gear that NO ONE else does. Hey, I'm also fickle. Show me a better product line for the money, and I'm there. Now having said that... the Tech21 issue. I sure hope Tech21 doesn't complain too much, because the Behringer guitar amp sounds pretty sad compared to the Tech21 which is why I have my doubts they copied anything. They are also similar in price, which makes the Tech21, the known entitiy for guitar products, the better value. The problem with the outboard gear argument, is there are no other choices available with the same features in any where near the price range. The line just doesn't exist as far as I know. | ||
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| willard |
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Joined: November 2002 Posts: 1300 Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Al and Miles, Two things come to mind here. 1) Have you guys ever thought about going on TV and doing movie reviews? Sounds like "2 thumbs up" from Miles. 2)It might be time to start a Behringer board. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Miles a kia and a rolls both have 4 wheels a motor seat and air conditioning. I would rather have the rolls. bottom line, The record plant, electric ladyland and all the other studios are not transferring all Berhinger gear any time soon or maybe even ever. As for features sure I can hang a bunch of neon, big tires, mirrors, refectors, lower it, put a big 18" sub woofer and 300 watt amp, 15 antennae, 20 coat lacquer paint job and what do I have left ? I still have a kia with a bunch of bells and whistles. If you want a rolls you have to pay for it no ifs ands or buts, bottom line for a hobby the behringer stuff functions well. For a pro you need to buy the best tools. When I go to a gig I do not take a no name guitar and amp I take my best tools to do the best job I can. I do not settle for second best or third best. I want to know that what I am doing is the ultimate that I can have. You have seen me live I never use shure mics, I always have akg beyer or neumann for recording. Because they are better and do the job better. A pro never settles for second best or makes the arguement is it 1200 $ better. You want the best to represent you in the best way. When money is the issue we settle for what we can afford. That is why my home studio will have a mix of all types of gear that I have collected over the year that was considered state of the art. will there be glitches? sure but I would put my dynacord stuff against the berhinger anyday. Same with my ashley, yamaha urei and altec. Willard for a fee we are available for parties | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | ". . . . Jane, you ignorant slut . . . . . ." | ||
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| Chuck (Retired Navy) |
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Joined: July 2002 Posts: 280 Location: Waterloo, IL | Al, I am considering some of the Behringer gear once I get back stateside. I am trying to get a consensus on whether the stuff is any good for home use. I understand that for pro use, you want the top of the line, even though it costs more money. When I worked as a mechanic in the field, I wanted the best hand tools, SnapOn, Mac, some Craftsman. For home, it is not so important to have the best. Is Behringer an acceptable product for home use? It is good to see such a wide cross-section of expertise on this board. It really helps to get such a wide perspective. Thanks for all the time and effort (plus the money) you put into this. Chuck Still floating around the Middle East | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Chuck For your home use the behringer gear is more than satisfactory. It performs well. I have recorded in Miles studio and was pleased with the result (except for the one overdub I did to a tune that was 1 1/4 steps out of tune) Part of this debate is tongue in cheek. I have always been an audio snob, I have a tube preamp and amp for my home stereo. I prefer the older more established brands. I am not looking for state of the art, since I cannot afford it. I usually wind up with older gear that was state of the art 10 years ago. Miles on the other hand wants to operate a working studio where he must rely on the gear every day and maintain it. For his purposes the behringer gear performs very well as it will for your purposes. There is no snob appeal to the behinger stuff. It dies you throw it out and buy another one. Can you tell the difference between the high end gear and the behinger? maybe probably if you used audio tests. I think of it like having a V 8 motor. YOu don't always stomp down on it but when you need to it is good to know it is there. Applied to audio, I like to know that I have the good components of a quality piece as opposed to whatever hit the price point to put it together. Just my opinion your mileage may vary | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7247 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Al is correct. If I had my choice, I would use Drawmer, Allen & Heath, Rane, Focusrite, Manley and others. I recently had to inventory for tax purposes, and I did some comparisons. If I were to outfit my studio with the bare essential similar gear I would have spent just over 300,000 dollars. As it is, I have invested over 60K and have a FULL outfit for every possible situtation. Behringer is not for the audio snob. Several studios in Europe us it, as they seem to have a different attitude, and I think Al would be surprised at how much Behringer gear is in high-end studios in the states, they just don't advertise it. The gates and eq's and DI's I see turning up in studios and high end performance situations all the time (some people go to concerts to see the perfomers.. I look at the gear). Even the infamous old Ryman Auditorium is running the stuff. Sure a Kia isn't a Rolls and you can't dress up an Kia to be anything else. HOwever a Corvette is not a Rolls either, but if you could buy a Corvette for the same price as the Kia, I think you would. In a real example, although neither is as well known, I could have bought a Saturn for the same price I bought my Cougar. There was NO CONTEST, the Cougar is twice the car in every respect. That's what I say about Berhringer, I'm not playing up more than it is. Nothing else, in any where near the price range, has the same features and quality. In 4 years my ADAT's, Lexicon, and Fostex products have ALL had to be serviced. They went BELLY UP until they were serviced. I have roughly 20+ pieces of Behringer gear, with no failures. My next choice after Behringer would probably be Rane. I have not used a lot of it, but in recent comparisons it's coming out pretty good and is only about 2 to 3 times the price of the Berhinger gear. Rane has been around for a long time too. After that... I would skip to the Rolls Royce category and not waste my time. | ||
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