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Location: Bryant AR | This model, which was available up until just a month ago, has slipped through my fingers. I have an Ovation rep looking for a new one for me that might be out there, but on the chance you might know where one is....or you have one, and have decided that a non-C/A is not for you, I'm your guy.
As most of you know, this was Glen Campbell's original guitar (deep bowl, original oak leaf rosette, ivory binding on fretboard with diamond inlays, natural top, and upgraded OP40 system) and the flagship of the Ovation line. For some odd reason, now DISCONTINUED (big mistake) but I'm determined to find one at a reasonable price. The new ones with natural tops (and the sunburst, still available) went for $1129 with case.
I could also be interested in one of the newer Glen Campbell anniversary reissues if I could beat that $1800+ price. Anybody with a path to a Legend or GC as described, get in touch with me ASAP, with my gratitude.
Write: born2sing2u2@att.net |
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Location: SoCal | Watch ebay. There are several 1717's up there right now, 3 sunburst and 1 black (from the descriptions). These are great guitars and very under appreciated.... |
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Location: Tennessee | Or contact LostArtVintage. They can usually get the Ovation you want for you. Those Glen Campbell reissues are really nice. |
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Location: East Tennessee | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
Or contact LostArtVintage. They can usually get the Ovation you want for you. Those Glen Campbell reissues are really nice. :D What he said. |
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Location: Bryant AR | Thank you, p.i. moody, I knew about the black and sunburst models. The same company had the natural, but sold it and has no more. 1717-4 is the number, and the -4 denotes natural finish. LostArtVintage is a new idea, I hadn't heard of them until now. Thanks, Capo Guy, for the tip. All of you are cool for responding, and are automatically on my Good Guy Lists, just for your mutual love of Ovations....! |
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Location: Bryant AR | And thank you, stonebobbo! |
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Location: Tennessee | We're all about spending other people's money here. :) If Al can't get it for you, no one can. Just remember, your call to LostArtVintage is free when you phone from work. Stick around and let us know how it turns out. We love happy endings. |
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Location: Bryant AR | Thanks again, stoney, Al will be my SECOND call after Monday, when the Ovation rep buddy of mine gets off vacation and calls me. I want to let him sweep his network first 'cause that would be a brand new one for sure. Al is my ace in the hole, got his number, won't hesitate to use it. As soon as I find it, I will post the HURRAY message here for all to see, happy endings and all. Trust me, happy I will be, wetting my pants happy. My fingers are crossed. |
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Location: Bryant AR | To one and all, on another note, we've got to find a way to get the boys at Ovation to listen to us. There is more to the Ovation market than guys under 30, who want their guitars to look like pick axes or flames with strings. The guy who made this company take off as all of us knows was GLEN CAMPBELL, and out of respect for the first star endorsement of Ovation, his signature guitars, the Glen Campbell Artist and the Legend (the real one, not all these LX contour back knockoffs) should NEVER go totally out of production. Limited production, or on demand by order, should ALWAYS be on the list. Sales are sales, and as I told an Ovation manager who wrote me, look at it this way: Had the 1717 been available, here's one of them at over $1100 you would have sold. Any questions? D-uh!! Time to stop selling by spreadsheet, and dance with the one who brought you there, right? |
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Location: SoCal | This is a discussion we've had a number of times in the past and will undoubtedly have in the future. Ovation will build you almost any guitar you want, whether it's in the catalog or not. But they are always going to work to sell the guitars that they sell a lot of.
Several years ago, they came out with a catalog of "traditional" guitars. My guess is that they didn't sell enough of them to make it worthwhile to continue printing the catalog.
As to respecting the past, for the 40th anniversary of Ovation they did build the Glen Campbell reissues (along with the Josh White RI's, and the Balladeer RI's). They are great guitars. I have one of the 6 strings. But I don't know how well they sold. My guess would be not that well. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Rick, I'm with you. But it's all just sentimental angst. Building guitars is a business, and there's about 12 people in the world who are going buy a guitar because it says Glen Campbell in the headstock. Mickey Mantle wooden baseball bats don't sell real well these days either. Fender is into making money and old time sentimentalists like us, even though we do buy a fair number of guitars and probably have higher than average disposable incomes, represent a miniscule drop in the bucket of potential customers. Keep looking and you'll find what you're after. The other route would be to contact Al and have Ovation build exactly what you want.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
The other route would be to contact Al and have Ovation build exactly what you want. That's what I'm doing. It's amazing the number of people on this board who do the same thing. Al should be able to retire just off us........ |
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Location: Bryant AR | I appreciate all the input. First, on building: Frank at Ovation tried to back away from that idea, starting with the premise of stripping an LX, and "downgrading" it to things like a Kaman bar (K-bar) and, I would presume, a deep bowl, remarking about how "expensive" that would be.
I countered by saying, "Look, all we're talking about is an ivory bound fretboard with diamond inlays like you did for years, a standard glue-on oak leaf rosette, a natural top and an OP40. Leave the improved bracing, and use a deep bowl. Where's the expense?"
As for production issues and profitability, ANY guitar that sells ANY number is profitable if you don't stock it. That's why I suggested to Frank to do it on a by-demand basis, and in limited annual numbers to generate the notion of exclusivity. Here is what I pitched to him by was of a make-believe ad campaign:
"THE ORIGINAL OVATION LEGEND. Roundback. Natural top. Traditional oak leaf rosette. But under the hood....all the latest improvements. Improved tension rod. State of the art electronics and acoustic electric sound. Superior bracing to the top. Everything you remember about Ovation guitars from the beginning. Purists will love the look. Others will love the features....
"All with a sound you will never forget. It looks like your dad's Ovation. But that's where the similarity ends. The best of the old. But in with the new. Ovation brings the generations back together."
Produced on limited run and only on demand, yes, these could be as profitable as any other guitar built on special order. Thanks for your positive vibes, fellas, and wishing me luck. It is appreciated greatly. |
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Location: SoCal | Rick,
If you gotta have a K-bar in the neck (and personally, I would prefer the newer system 'cause it's strong and light weight), why not buy an old Legend from the 1980's. Look for one that's trashed, buy it cheap, then send it to the factory to have a new body put on. It's a lot less money than having them build a whole new guitar..... |
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Location: SoCal | Also, what were you told by Ovation when you tried to order your guitar? You made reference to the K-bar. I'm guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that they are phasing that out. |
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Location: Bryant AR | I only made reference to it only because of Frank's remarks about "downgrading." He didn't understand at the time that this wasn't what I was talking about. He thought I was suggesting that they downgrade an existing instrument.
What a very nice Ovation rep has discovered is that they have just enough existing pre-production parts from the last production run of 1717s to construct one full feature, final 1717-4. Where we're hitting the wall right now is on the price. Nothing is built yet and won't be, pending determination of that number.
Ovation can't sell direct to the end user, as anybody knows, so a retail receiver has to get the instrument and pass it on to me, hopefully for an appropriately adjusted retail price. But on the first bounce, they tried to wholesale the guitar to the point that the MSRP was going to land around $3,000, putting the adjusted street retail around $2,100, which is utterly ridiculous.
You can buy a 1717 Sunburst online right now, brand new in the case, with free shipping for $1,129, and a 1717 Black Legend, in the case, with free shipping, goes for a mere $1,029. Yes, I wanted a natural top, but not for an extra thousand dollars!
So with some maneuvering with a second retailer, we left things with a retail offer of $1,599, which is still too darn high. The original MSRP on these was $1,479. But, you might say, this is a new instrument they're building for you. Why shouldn't it be higher? I'll explain.
I pointed out to the rep (who saw my point, and intends to discuss it with the production manager when he returns from a trip) that if this guitar was going to be custom built from newly cut materials, it might be one thing to see a higher wholesale and retail.
But this guitar is not going to be a custom job. It will be a true 1717-4 in every detail, built by the book with no mods, but more importantly, it is to be built from post-production parts from 2006, 2005 or even earlier, at wholesale prices then, not now. They have no more of an investment in the raw materials than in the finished guitar, save the labor costs, and those have not gone up appreciably in two or three years. That's why everything is outsourced to Korea or China in the other lines for pre-production or, in the case of Applause, full production.
So other than a little bump for a special order, I can't see a 50% wholesale or retail increase on a guitar built from 2-4 year old parts. Can you? Especially when the production line is completely caught up (which the rep was kind enough to share. By the way, he is a truly terrific guy who is working hard for me.)
He's going to talk to the PM, and make this case with him. Hopefully, they will adjust the wholesale on this in such a way that a local retailer can let it touch the wall, I pick it up in the original unopened packaging, and they get a small but reasonable margin for their time since it's presold, won't be carried as stock, and they'll be paid for it before the invoice arrives, which means they pay the factory for it out of payment received! They never touch their own bank account!
That's like free money just for being in the right place at the right time. We'll see what happens. As of the last conversation, we were within a hundred dollars or so of my maximum, so maybe this will still happen. Even at my top price, I'd be paying an extra $300-$400 for what amounts to a cosmetic issue. Maybe that's dumb, but I just want a natural top. If this guitar happens, it will be with me for the rest of my life for sure, so I want to get it right.
Everybody wish me luck. |
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Location: SoCal | Rick, one other thing you might consider. You mentioned wanting a Glen Campbell reissue. Our own seesquare (Chris Clark) has a GC that's acoustic only. The body was damaged and it had a whole new body put on it, with, I believe, an A braced top which is what the reissues have. He's asking $400 for it which is dirt cheap. If I didn't have a reissue, I'd be all over that. |
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Location: Bryant AR | I've heard that phrase before, as in "it had a whole new body put on it." Please enlighten me as to what that means. The "body" IS the guitar, other than the neck, so I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around what is involved with that. Is this putting a new top on? Because it is hard to imagine anything outside of a ball peen hammer doing anything to the Lyrachord bowl.
Sounds like an amazing price. Does it have a natural top? Signature rod cover, or signature label? I might be able to get Ovation to put a piezo bridge and electronics on it, do ya think? Also, tell me how I might be able to reach Clark and direct some questions to him. I really appreciate the tip, and any additional info you could provide. Thanks for your time. |
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Location: Tennessee | Good luck, Rick! But my previous comment still stands ... you should contact Al at LostArtVintage. He is a retailer who can be the intermediary for you, and he has an excellent relationship with the factory since he is a CUSTOM ORDER specialist. He has been known to get the impossible done ... i.e. the Ding!-O, the 06ShuddaBeen, and a couple of very special one-offs. And no one has ever complained about how he prices his guitars. |
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Location: SoCal | Rick,
When the factory puts a new top on a guitar, they also replace the bowl. Chris' guitar, as a result, has a new top and bowl. He had the factory brace the top with the A bracing pattern instead of the VT-8, which the original GC's used. Much much much better sound. The reissues have the A bracing pattern.
It has the original neck.
If you've gotta have a pickup put in it, just have a local luthier put in an after market. There are tons to choose from and it shouldn't cost more than $150. For about $550 total, you'd have a great guitar. |
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Location: Indiana | "When the factory puts a new top on a guitar, they also replace the bowl."
Yup... and they'll send you the old one back if you ask nicely.
I was thinking about making a lamp out of this one.
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Look up posts by seesquare in the for sale section. He has the guitar, along with others listed there. He lives in the Middle of Nowhere, Washington, but other than that he's a regular guy. |
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Location: Bryant AR | Thank you, Mark, I will drop him a line. Also, to stonebobbo, Al and I have exchanged an email and he's declared the 1717 to be a lost model, telling me about one that he had available on his site, but it wasn't a Legend. My best bet now is to to stick with the Ovation rep (we've developed a good rapport) and see if the PM can take down the wholesale just a little on the one we're proposing to build. I have an Ovation retailer ready to step in if they can make it work a little for him. He doesn't have to have much, just something. Ovation, of course, is taken care of on the wholesale end. But again, a 2008 wholesale on 2-4 year old parts is a bit much, and the rep will see what he can do.
I printed out the latest "Trade Only" PDF price list, and I must admit, I was in shock. Price sticker shock, that is. USA/Korean made Celebs are going for what full USA Ovations went for just a decade ago. Either material prices have skyrocketed or greed has set in. I couldn't believe how many Ovation basic models were in the over $2000 range, where we once saw price points mostly for Adamas.
If not for outsourcing to Korea and China, I'm afraid Ovation would find itself almost priced out of the market. What a shame for the future. |
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Location: SoCal | Rick,
I can't believe that a Porsche or Ferrari costs more than $30k, but they do. Prices go up. Materials may cost the same, wages may not have gone up much, but there are also other factors like transportation costs, benefits, taxes, etc. All these costs continue to climb.
In the last few years, Ovation has taken some odd twists and turns. They've raised their prices in an attempt to say, hey, these are great guitars, made in America, and worth the money. At the same time, they've shipped a lot of lines overseas to conserve costs. My opinion (which isn't worth all that much) is that they are in transition and that things will shake out over the next year or two, at which time, Fender, Ovation, and the rest of us will have a clearer picture of what's going on and where Ovation is going.
As to you only being willing to pay about $1500 for a 1717, well, all I can say is that that guitar competes with instruments costing a grand more. I'd certainly be willing to pay that and probably more if I really wanted one. And right now I'm working with Al on a special order that's very similar (very much "your Dad's Ovation look, but with modern technology") and I'm going to spend more than $1500. |
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Location: Bryant AR | Point is, with 1717 Black and Sunburst Legends still in the marketplace, brand new in the case, with free shipping for $1,029 and $1,129 respectively, I actually don't have to spend $1,500 on an aftermarket Legend just for the natural top. I can make the choice. If I can get the price down to that, I probably will choose it.
Your points are well taken where the big picture is concerned. For this little project, the issue (which the rep is going to mediate) is that this last guitar is being built from parts produced at the same time as the last run of these guitars, with a locked in, 2 to 4 year old wholesale. Why should the guitar in disassembled form go for that much more than the ones they put together, when labor costs are pretty much stable?
This is a one-time only thing, probably never to be done in quite the same way ever again. A special order or custom order might involve doing fresh cuts or manufacture of parts. This one is on shelves and in storage bins like puzzle pieces waiting to be put together and finished out.
Trust me, when all is said and done, Ovation will have made a nice profit and the retail receiver will have picked up a nice margin for literally doing nothing -- no stock carries, no tie-ups of investment cash, no carrying product on the books, no floor taxes, no store costs, no nothing. Just open the dock doors, receive and sign, hold the boxes, call the end user, swipe the card and pay the invoice from the sale.
I won't look back and wish that I had paid more. And everyone at the other end will be able to rack up one more sale. And I will ultimately be at peace with the price we arrive at, or I'll give up the natural top and get one of the black or sunbursts and be happy with that.
If those other ones weren't available, I might feel differently. But I don't see their prices going up, either. They're staying put, at $1,029 and $1,129. It's not so much about what I'm willing to pay, it's about making the right deal for what I want.
Everything goes up in costs eventually, not always for the right reasons. If I'm concerned over Ovation's skyrocketing prices, it's only because I'm a huge fan of the guitars, a huge fan of Charlie Kaman, and believe that this guitar did more to transform the making of acoustic guitars than any other brand. I want others to know it to, and for the prices to be such that others make their own discovery.
Just know that I appreciate the thoughts you've shared and the time it took to share them. We're of one mind for sure in one respect: We agree that Ovation is one of the best guitars in the world and they're always worth our time. |
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WANTED: Legend 1717-4 with OP40
