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Posts: 2487
| Hey guy's and Girl's. Can any of you give me a better idea of what I may be looking for in a vocal effets unit? What I am after may or may not exist? Again like all the effects units for sale I am overwhelmed by the choices and prices!
I am still working out some Yes stuff. The music is going, surprisingly, quite well. We have some of the sounds perfect and the Guitar, Drums, bass and the keyboards Sound fantastic. The Vocals are another thing? We are still looking for another keyboard player or guitarist who can sing higher than the two of us who are trying to carry the vocals now? I would still like to experiment with our voices to see if we could with a little help from some kind of a super effects rack mount unit raise my voice a note or two when needed to hit those impossible Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee notes? Is there anything available that will allow us to sing using our natural voices and, from time to time, kick in the high notes when we are in trouble?
If not, could anyone suggest a good durable unit for band use in general? I am overwhelmed with the stuff there is now! I was out of the Band thing for way too long! I do realise this question contains "No Ovation Content" ? Just figured there are a bunch of you who play professionaly and may know. Thanks all Randy |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | You need a Harmonizer. Several companies make them, though Digitech & Korg are the most affordable and the most common. Older harmonisers are readily available cheaply on ebay but are pretty basic and can sound pretty robotic. You really need the newer "intelligent" harmonisers some of which can add up to 5 parts & can be programmed for specific keys and intervals.
http://www.digitech.com/products/vr.htm
This Korg unit is basic & inexpensive. A friehd of mine has one & it's pretty good for the money
http://www.amicuk.com/Akai-Duo-Buddy-Vocal-Processor--b1--m123-70700.html
With any of these Harmonizers, even the best of them, they need to be used sparingly & with taste or they can make you sound ridiculous. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | If you're looking for something to record with, Antares makes Autotune in both VST and DX versions, so you can use it with Sonar/Cubase/ProTools. Or, if you need something 'hard', you can try the ATR1a which is currently on sale at MF. Presumably, your local Guitarget would offer it for the same price.
Good luck! |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Forget the high notes, is there a unit out there that will just make me sound good instead of flat pitchless and annoying? |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by cwk2:
Forget the high notes, is there a unit out there that will just make me sound good instead of flat pitchless and annoying?
Copious amounts of alcohol will solve that problem. Well, at least you'll think that you no longer sound flat, pitchless and annoying. The non-drinkers around you might not agree.
:) |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | The Antares products are pitch correction tools rather than a harmoniser. So basically, if you find it difficult to sing or play in tune, Autotune will help, but ultimately you can't polish a turd. Autotune is a great tool in the studio, where you can fix a pefect take spoiled by a tiny pitch fault, though some people (The Spice Girls for one amongst a long list of other big name acts) used it as a substitute for skill & talent.
Antares is partially responsible for "Pop Idol syndrome". The record companies now know they can find some talentless pretty boy (or girl) that they can market, and use autotune until they learn to sing properly. The print ads for Antares were hilarious, they featured pictures of a bunch of nameless "endorsees" with bags over their heads, saying how much Autotune has helped their careers. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
The Antares products are pitch correction tools rather than a harmoniser.
I thought that the OP was looking for something to correct his (band's) pitch on certain (high) notes. I didn't catch the part about wanting to auto-generate harmonies. If harmonizing is on the list, then no, the Antares products don't seem to do it. |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | I think you need a voice first |
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Posts: 2487
| Yeah I think we all have Voice limitations? Think I did mention that on my post. That hurt Al? ouch!
What we have so far is real solid and tight, and the voacls are real good; right up to where we just can't hit the high notes good enough to pass our own critique. Again remember we are doing all the hardest songs first to see if we can actually get them down perfectly. I would say we are 75 percent spot on with our voices and that's pretty good considering Yes, Rush, Floyd and Genesis are not your typical song list?
So until we find the Lead vocalist I want to see what we can do, and I want a unit that will NOT take away from our voices (robotic or etc.) I am hopeful there is a unit I can program to hit the notes I need and with a foot switch kick it on and off during a song?
I will look into the units Paul and other's mentioned. I may end up with more than one? Thanks and as for Voices; Hey when we get the Lead vocals, we already got two fantastic "Harmony" & second & third voices. Not bad considering we are not working at this full time. Having a ball and I am using the Ovations on 2 songs so far. The rest is Rickenbacker Bass sounds man!
Thanks guy's Always good suggestions
Hey Paul "You Can't Shine Shit" But sometimes you can rub it to a dull lusture? |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | I wonder if you could polish this.
http://sargentwelch.com/product.asp?pn=WL7073W-11_EA&sid=GOOGLE&EID=GL005286 |
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| Hey ! Apparently you can shine shit! If you leave it laying around long enough you can use it for a Guitar Nut or a Guitar pick. Gives a whole new meaning to; " That Shit You Play Sounds Like Crap" ! |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | If you admittedly have "vocal limitations", you might want to consider altering your repertoire . . .
Jon Anderson's (and Chris Squire's) voice is not an easy one to emulate (at a consistant volume).
I've been singing their stuff in various bands and solo gigs for twenty-something years . . it ain't easy. As the years have gone by (ugh!), I've noticed that there are certain passages that I USED to be able to sing "flat out" (from the diaphragm) on pitch, I now have to get right up ontop of the mic and shift in and out of falsetto (it sucks getting old!). "Soon" from the end of "Gates of Delirium" is one that predominantly comes to mind.
Another thing you might wanna try is dropping the song down a key. "Your Move" (for example) is written in Emajor. I've seen other bands drop it down to D to make it a little more easier to hit the notes. Luckily, I'm still able to do it in "E", but I have to do it early in the night :rolleyes: .
I've been considering getting one of the DigiTech boxes myself for solo gigs. There's a smaller unit that can be mounted on a mic stand that has fifty-something preset harmonies programmed into it. Basically, you just have to enter the key in which the song is in. I've never TRIED one, but I have heard another guy using one at a bar that I play. As Al said, you really need to have a "voice" to begin with . . . this guy didn't.
As Master Templeman alluded, improperly set, these things DO have the potential of sounding a bit "robotic". Still, I do have a bit of interesting in getting one . . . either for solo gigs or to play my flute through . .
g'luck . .. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well now that I see the stuff you are attempting, big a big fan of most of it as well, I have some suggestions.
First, I would sing the song in your own style. Don't try to cover it, it's been done that way already. Either adjust the key or the arrangement or just the octave of that passage to fit your voice. Singing it dead on, in your voice will be accepted more than missing it while trying to copy someone else.
Don't expect the "tight music" to make up for the weak vocal, It won't. Referring to the above, better to sing strong your own version than a weak copy.
Having said that... There are some interesting things to do, and keep the same feel as the original. I used to (note Cliff's comment on age) be able to hit some pretty high falsetto notes. The Singer would sing in his key, and I would come in on the passages that needed to go with him. For something by YES, we would both sing the whole song, the lead with his own strong voice, and I would do the falsetto part all the way through. It sounded great and didn't really change the overall tunes that much.
Vocal effects units for harmony and multi-vocals are great for backup vocals, and you can get away with them live in certain syles of music. But for the covers you are mentioning, I'd recommend working it out the old fashioned way. If the music is tight, and the vocals are tight, the audience is not going to notice that it it doesn't sound like the album. If they do notice, even better because they will probably aplaud you for your creativity. |
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Posts: 83
Location: Columbus, OH | Yes, there are things that will do what you want. TC Hellicon Voiceworks is a good one that will pitch correct and harmonize etc.... It will send your voice up or down octaves as well. It will also add compression, eq, delay, reverb and other effects if you want them. Riksmusic.com sells them for $580 with a free 3 button footswitch and free shipping.
There's also the TC Hellicon VoicePrismPlus which will do actual voice modeling, but doesn't pitch correct. It's about a grand. |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Randy;
I'll gladly come up and sing at any of your gigs up there . . . . .
. . . . just put me up at the MirrorLakeInn in Lk. Placid. ;) :D |
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Posts: 2487
| Yeah Cliff The Mirror Lake Inn is it man! and yeah, we do have limitations, when it comes to Anderson and Lee, but my voice is almost a perfect match to Chris Squire's so it is hard to give up on songs we have down so well and have come so close to vocally.
I am working on some of his solo stuff and having a blast with Hold out your Hand. My problem with this song is not the "voice" or the "bass" it's doing both at the same time!!!!! Man I always loose it somewhere in that song and can't recover good enough to get through it?? It took me a long time to get all the way through Heart of the Sunrise and I have it perfect on Bass. De-tuning a half note has been discussed but there are so many other songs we don't have trouble with we hate to give up?
Again we are looking, a little, now for a lead vocalist with a high voice but will look much harder and advertise when the rest of the sound system and song lists are farther along? This may be a while, we are all working full time jobs and have family's. etc. and one guy is already in a band but wants to do this music so bad he will pull the plug when we get ready for dates? In the meantime I am looking for one or more of these new units to see what they can do? We need a good vocal effects unit for the whole band anyway.
Miles I wish I could I could afford your expertise in this area, as it is I may need to hire on a real good sound man to run the board and set this stuff up for us and make this sound better? Wish I had just a little of your knowledge about sound systems. We all know a little about it but there is so much to choose from now and we all want it to sound spot-on-perfect! I really have been completely out of the music loupe for way too long?
I was always partial to Sound Chaser but those songs from Relayer are just to obscure and I don't think the "one guy" we will have listening to this music will understand what we are doing!
If we can pull this of it will be a pretty cool song list with an hour & 1/2 of the Yes, Floyd, Genesis, Rush, and if we can find a good vocalist Supertramp and Boston. The rest will be newer stuff and etc. If the good stuff we want to play goes over well and we become known for playing it we will expand the list?
I have a bunch of money in this now and I am far from done yet. But I'll tell ya "I just don't care" Music was what I always wanted to do and I am Back! The Ovations will look great in the background even if they only get used for a few songs. I have been selling other hobbies off left and right to pay for it. Wow this is way to long! sorry I always do this? Randy |
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| From the suggestions so far I have three units to look at and I will buy them all if I think it will get us where we want to be? Our Keyboard player has been trying to explain Polyphony to me? And he has been looking at the Korg Triton Extreem I think I will take him with me shopping! I will make that Smug, snooty, Kid at the music store work for a living soon.
I like your suggestion Miles I think I am being a bit Anal about hitting every note as close as the originals as possible and I do already sing an octave below through some of the hard parts. I see your point about doing it your own way makes sense. I am just not giving up because I see so many new and exciting effects products out there and I want to try some first before I adapt.
I am still planning on a high pitch singer to come in the group and solve this problem? This music is such a blast to play when it's done well!
Thanks for the help guy's
Randy |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | No! Not a Triton! :) Actually, they're very nice, it's just that I'm the proud owner of a Yamaha Motif8 and well, you know, the whole Motif vs. Triton holy war and all...
:)
Good luck and let us know what you end up with. |
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February 2004
Posts: 2487
| He wants a Roland but I know if I don't talk him into a Korg (something) he (and we) will wait several months to get the money together to get it? Man they are high priced! He has an earlier Korg model now that is pretty good but you know how the Keyboards all become obsolite! No matter how good it sounds, no matter how many functions it has, you just have to have the newest and fastest gizmo out there?? Makes me appreciate my guitars even more, they and their sounds are timeless!
He is right though he can tie other keyboards into these more advanced boards and try to pull off some Rick Wakeman stuff! It is funny you should here him swear at Rick!??? I catch him talking to himself sometimes by pushing the Yes stuff at him! He loves it though it keeps him humble and hungry to learn! |
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Posts: 627
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | Hey Paul. Based on your recomendation, I went and bought that Akai Harmonizer. I'll use it for recording. I could see if over used it would be ridiculous, unless its 2AM, and the audience is drunk or stoned. I like the random timing, for natrul sound harmony.
Tommy |
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Vocal effects units (NOC)
