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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- LOOOOOOOOONG, DETAILED Theory question follows:
BACKGROUND: There's a cute little pop ditty called "Island in the Sun" by a group called Weezer. Several weeks back, my daughter asked me to teach her how to play it. She is just starting out and I am teaching her chords that she can play along with YouTube songs. She's coming along really well.
Anyway, I found the song on YouTube, and doped out the chord progression and showed it to her. She kinda played a long , then kinda dropped that one for a while in favor of Free Bird and other Lynyrd Skynard tunes. Well, yesterday, we asked me again about "Island in the Sun." I had forgotten what the chords were, so I found the same version on YouTube and started to dope it out again.
Bottom line: it was the same YouTube version, but I found completely DIFFERENT chords that worked perfectly fine, and I'm not sure why.
Then, I made a fortunate miss. Trying to move the chords that I had figured out around on the fingerboard, I played an E minor instead of a G, and it worked! So, I had stumbled on THREE different chord progressions, that, if you played them right along with the song, worked just fine. Whuh? do I just have a tin ear? Entirely possible!
Here's the detail:
First time (I eventually remembered the original one that I'd found out) G-Am-Bm-G
Second time: G-Am-D-G
Third time: Em-Am-D-G
If you look at that, you realize that I was able to use EITHER Em and G interchangeabley in the song. And I was able to use Bm and D interchangeably in the song.
This means that the following chord progressions would work just fine as well:
• G-Am-Bm-Em
• Em-Am-Bm-Em
• G-Am-D-Em
And, sure enough, I tried 'em and they sounded just fine. Again, I'm questioning whether I simply have a tin ear!
And all other combinations for where those three chords can be used. I didn't find a subsititure for Am, but was busy pursuing the others.
SIDE NOTE:(I'm pretty sure I COULD find the substitute, because if you take the "D" Chord formation and move it up and down the fingerboard, then at that position, play the "barred Am" chord formation, those pairs always seem to work nicely together. So, calculating it out, if A minor is at the 13th fret (as well as at the 5th with the "barred E minor chord formation"), then the "D" formation at the 13th fret is C...Hence C should be able to substitute for Am in this little ditty. (My calculations might be a little off, because I don't have a guitar with me right now.) This means that BOTH G-C-D-G AND Em-Am-Bm-Em should work just fine for the song! And, sure enough, they do! Uhhhhhhhhhh...WTH? (tr.: What the Heck?))
THE QUESTION: I understand subbing chords for other chords when they are major for major, or minor for minor, but how the HECK can I just willy-nilly throw in minor chords in place of major chords and vice versa? Shouldn't this completely throw off the mood and tone of the song?
I understand the BASIC answer to this conundrum: the notes of BOTH pairs of chords (eg: Em and G, and Bm and D) are ALL workable at the points where that those chords can be used.
But the ability to swap Major for Minor and vice versa stumps me.
For your reference, and if you want to try it out, the song is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hyoszso38E. To make this more difficult and challenging for you: I'm ignorant of most of the vocabulary of theory. I don't know what most of the terms mean.
Any thoughts? Is there a high-level, layman's explanation for this?
Thanks, All!
Alan |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Every major chord has a relative minor and vice versa.
For example G Majors relative minor is a 3rd down, i.e. E minor. Look at the notes in each scale...
G Major = G A B C D E F#
E minor = E F# G A B C D
Wow! Look they are the same notes!
For more reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by dweezil:
Every major chord has a relative minor and vice versa.
For example G Majors relative minor is a 3rd down, i.e. E minor. Look at the notes in each scale...
G Major = G A B C D E F#
E minor = E F# G A B C D
Wow! Look they are the same notes!
For more reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key |
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August 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Chord variations can make a huge difference. Not just taking the relative major or minor (which also makes a huge difference), but even playing the 7th of a chord can totally change the feel of a progression. Case in point off the top of my head: Sgt. Pepper\'s
Notice what Paul and John did. They added a 7th to every single chord in the progression! Play the progression WITHOUT the 7ths, and it's still a cool progression. But play every chord WITH a 7th, and you have nothing short of another stroke of genius.
Simple but effective chord play like that drives me INSANE (in the good way)!!! |
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Location: SoCal | Instead of 7th's play 9th's. Or put in a moving bass line on top of the chords.
At least that's what I've been told would help my 3 chords.... |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Instead of 7th's play 9th's. Or put in a moving bass line on top of the chords.
At least that's what I've been told would help my 3 chords.... 9ths (or 2nds, depending on what octave you're counting from) can really sweeten the bass in the right place (or make it sound like crap in the wrong place, of course!).
Think I'll start a new OT thread on coolest chord progressions you've learned! |
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May 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Yalova/Turkey | These things can even get more complicated than some of the points described above. You can play the A7 with an added g on the upper e string, or else with the g string itself. As far as my ears are to be trusted, in some songs one sounds gourgeous and the other one just doesn´t fit... Guess sometimes one has to trust his ears and just try out which one is the best... I would think it has something to do with the melody of the song you use the chord in. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Playing 2nds instead of 3rds also creates a nice mellow chord for ballads. For blues leads, 7ths, #9ths and bending into the 5th from the 4th of the chord should get you into the game. |
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October 2008
Posts: 489
| Alan, you've hit on something that makes arranging fun.
If you're singing a D note, there are lots of chords that contain D. Try a bunch of them.
This is not only fun to do and puts your personal stamp on a song you're covering, but it has the bonus of driving the you-gotta-play-it-exactly-like-the-original crowd absolutely nuts. |
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Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Didn't know I was in a crowd. I get tired of the "I'm too lazy to figure out how to play it like the original, so this is how I do it" crowd. |
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Posts: 489
| Was that what I said, Mark? I don't think so.
Take a look at some of the chord substitutions James Taylor uses in his covers. Absolutely gorgeous. Is he lazy? |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Losov, I think what Mark meant was being too lazy to learn a cover accurately as opposed to reinterpreting it by substituting chords that work, but that aren't necessarily the original chord.
Personally, I'm in the much smaller anal retentive play-it-just-like-the-song crowd. But my audiences LOVE it. No matter HOW accurately I learn a song, my personal style is bound to get mixed by simple virtue of the fact that it's me playing it. Therefore, I learn the song as accurately as possible, knowing that in the end I get the best of both worlds. I love hearing "Man, you do that song better than anyone else I've heard", which usually means they love the song and don't want it watered down or changed. By the same token (before the simplifiers and reinterpreters get defensive!) it is nice to take a known tune and give it a spin.
My approach has been that the rule is be accurate, and the exception to the rule is mix it up a little. Some have found great success doing the opposite. Different strokes for different folks! Good music is good music. There is no "better", only different. |
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August 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Originally posted by Chris from Yalova:
These things can even get more complicated ... You can play the A7 with an added g on the upper e string, or else with the g string itself... Amazing what a little change like that can make, eh? I love it! Or how about playing an open G chord with the option of playing the B string open or fretted at the third fret? Same chord, different feel! |
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Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | No, Losov, but I thought you were addressing Alan, not James. I still admit that I prefer to try to learn a song exactly like the original and it does drive me nuts when someone does a cover that is just "sorta".
I'll tip my hat to anyone who is good enough to play the original and then do an adaptation that puts their stamp on it. What I was referring to is the majority of what I've heard or seen on tabs, and that's more toward the "I listened to it and I think this is pretty close" crowd.
By the time I finished typing this, Joe said what I wanted to say. What drives me nuts mostly is someone's tabs, which may not even be in the ballpark. I can understand how someone who has to get songs ready for a gig and doesn't have time to learn them precisely, just tries to get close. I can't figure out why people post tabs that aren't close. |
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Location: Chicago | The grand concept here is ENHARMONIC: notes that function differently in different contexts. The posts above tell the story: you take G major (GBD) and play it over an E bass note, voila! E minor 7th. Every simple triad will "become something else" when played over another bass note: try it! Such simple enrhamonic relations are the first step in chord substitution (Emin for Gmaj). Consider the harmonized G major scale (all the basic chords in G major): Gmajor, Aminor, Bminor, Cmajor, D7th, Eminor, F#minb5, Gmajor etc.) Theoretically you can sub any one of these for a chord whose root is a third away (Gmajor for Bminor; Eminor for Gmajor).
A fundamental concept that follows this basic insight is called the TRITONE sub: if you realize that the "core" of a D7 is the tritone (C F#) and if you realize that a tritone is a perfect division of the octave and symmetrical, you'll realize that the core of the D7 is identical to the core of a G#7 chord (try it). Hence, the sounc of a D7 will be very close to the sound of a G#7. That's why the G#7 is often substituted for a D7!
I'll stop now but the subject is like nature: endless forms most beautiful!!! |
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Posts: 489
| Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I can't figure out why people post tabs that aren't close. Well, Mark, I know what you mean and I do admit that those guys irritate me as well, particularly when they purport to be "teaching" the song.
Most songs I cover have full bands and arrangements in the original or are keyboard driven. If I am going to cover it, somethings gonna change somewhere.
I start by transcribing the song as played by the original artist, decide what I can keep, whats gotta go and what absolutely has to be there. If nothing else, there usually is a key change, not necessarily for vocal inadequacy but to make it lay out better on the fretboard, or to maximize low end. And yes, there will be chord substitutions if I like another chord better.
A prime example of this is my approach to "Walkin' in Memphis" There are plenty of bad covers of this; I didn't want to add to the list.
You might have seen it. If not and you are curious, PM me and I'll shoot you the URL. I think you'll see my point. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Most of the material we do I've never heard before via a recording (other than our own versions), so I'm not really constrained by interpretations from the composer, writer or recording artist. Probably less than 10% of our material represents original arrangements by our band leaders, past and present, or close associates. The rest is copyrighted material performed by license. Nonetheless, when performing copyrighted material, there are only so many liberties we feel comfortable in taking. I don't know what our license allows, but we generally stick closely to the basic music as written. Of course, there is seldom anything written for the drummer, nor does the keyboardist or I feel too resticted when ad libbing the solo passages. We also cut and paste intros and repeats to suit our needs, and often transpose stuff in different keys, but only occasionally will we actually change written notes and chords unless its an obvious mistake. |
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Location: Location Location Location | I love the chord stuff. I'm always looking for different ways to relate to chords and to relate chords to each other. So thanks for the input guys.
I hate to come to a party emptyhanded, so I'll add a little here myself. 11th chords, which seemed like a foreign animal at one time, are pretty cool..e.g., an A11 is just an Amaj chord and a G chord together, as in AC#EGBD..or...an Am11 is an Aminor chord and a Gmaj chord together, ACEGBD. Carry that farther you've got 13th chords, such as a G13, which is a C scale, GABCDEF(usually played without A or C, but can be included)...or a Dm13, which is also a Cscale (usually without E or G, which, again, can be included)..which brings you to another substitution...G13 for Dm13..
Or....flat any note in a Dim7 chord and you get the corresponding 7th chord..
I just figure the more ways you learn to get to Rome..the better you'll be at getting to Rome...or something like that. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | You guys are all way over my head. I do the same with guitar as I did when I sang. I just try something and can hear whether it sounds good or not. When I sang, someone might say, "that sounds good with the 6th" and I'd say "yeah, whatever". I know that the Professor can do the same thing with a guitar that we used to do with vocals. Maybe I should go back to learning some theory, but I keep getting caught up in the "how" and never get to the "why". |
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Posts: 584
Location: Denmark | AlanM - The melodic E minor scale has the same notes as the G major scale so at the melodic level the Em and G are closely related. If one takes a Em chord and lifts the bass note to the G fret it can suddenly be noted as Em/G or as G6add13. Which one to use depends on the song. The same relation exists between the Hm and D.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale
Another thing is that an Em isn't just an Em because how it works depend on how the notes change in the progression so an open Em isn't always interchangeable with a barré Em in the 7th position.
CCR used them both (Em-G) in the opening to "Who'll Stop the Rain" and that song and Pink Floyds "Whish You were Here" also demonstrates how a change from Em to G gives a nice tension-relief effect when changing from the dark Em to the more open G. |
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Posts: 584
Location: Denmark | - as well as "Every Breath You take" by The Police.
For the song in question a G-Em-Am-D vamp could probably also be used. |
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LONG Theory question...
