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Location: Wooster, Ohio | I was in Nashville taking my dauther to college and I had an afternoon to shop in guitar shops. I was in Gruhn downtown and they had a new composite guitar from Louisianna called CA guitars. They say they are a low productions shop at this point. The guitar is total composite including the neck and it sounds acoustically amazing. It is boxy looking but has a metalitic polished finished. Very light. I would love to get an opinion from someone here that knows the Adamas guitars really well and would compare. It just seems like a radical departure to me. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Flint, Several people here have played the CA guitars and just RAVE about the sound. Although I have not played one myself, comments like "nothing at 3x the price can touch it" ... "this is what the Q should use as a benchmark" ... "best sounding non-wood guitar I've ever heard" certainly get my curiousity up. How much was it, about $1600 ???
It will be interesting to see how CA markets the thing and can they get any "buzz" in the industry and more importantly among prospective buyers. Kaman has presumably a fair sized marketing department, budget, known name in the industry, and a wide dealer network. Yet they can't market a non-wood guitar worth a shit. I bet we'd all be amazed how few Adamas guitars are actually sold per year. Let's hope CA has a better plan. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | The price was $1600- $1700. They are coming out with a cutaway that looks a little more to my liking as far as looks, but they are not out yet, but should be in a month. No truss rods, very light. Acoustically it was amazing, I just could not get over it. The only negative is it is a boxy shape. Don't know if that shape is instrumental to its sound.
Steve |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Standing man!!
Second that thought. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Glen Campbell played one at Ray Charles' funeral...
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/photos/Trboy_73941_gc_rcf.jpg
and according to Cliff (see topic:Question for Bluebird-posted 19 june '04) who heard NPR's "live" broadcast.....said it sounded like crap!!(which was an unbiased comment since he didn't know what Glen was playing!)
* * * *
Mike :cool: |
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Location: SoCal | That's a CA? I thought it was a Rainsong. |
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Location: Midland, MI | My local mom/pop has a couple of CA A/E's in stock. In my very first thread on this board, I mentioned playing them and not being impressed, especially considering the price. In the last couple four months, I've played them (the CA's) off and on and still haven't been impressed. I find that the tone is thin, with not much bass. They don't carry Adamas, so I can't compare it to the Q, though. I can compare them to my Elite...which is what I bought off the rack just down from the CAs. :)
Oh, and for whatever reason, they always feel cold to me. Weird. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | From a longtime Ovation fan,i took my slothead adamas to the local CA dealer to compare.Myself and 3 other people who worked in the store all agreed.No contest,the CA was the better sonding guitar acoustically and plugged in.I was a bit suprised becuse my slothead is a very good sounding guitar. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | CA guitars are made about 10 minutes from where I live here in Lafayette Louisiana. Let me tell you how I came to respect these great sounding guitars. CA guitar company is about four years old, and although I would see them in music stores, I never really took the time to try one out. This in not CA guitars fault, I just only tried the Ovations I would see in the stores. Well about two years ago I went to a local festival here and there was a terrific bluegrass band called Blue Highway on stage. I was quite a ways back from the stage, but I noticed the guitarist was playing a CA guitar. Two things struck me about this. One was the guitarist named Tim Stafford was incredible, and the tone of the guitar was beautiful. I came home that day and did some looking into Tim Stafford on the internet. I found out that he use to play with Alison Krauss & Union Station. Needless to say, this guy could play. So now I turned my attention to trying out some CA guitars. Two of the local music stores here carry CA guitars. When I went to the one where I get my strings, there was a guy playing a CA Legacy who invited me to jam with him awhile. Well I didn't do much playing, but I did do alot of listening. The CA guitar sounded so much better that any acoustic guitar there it was not even close. And to think they are made in my hometown and I had never checked them out. Now I was curious to find out some of the secrets into what made these composite guitars sound so good. I contacted the head of their marketing department, who I have known for years. He asked me if I wanted to tour the factory, and I met him there a couple of days later. What I saw was a company totally dedicated to making the best sounding acoustic guitars they can. I got to see the whole process from start to finish, and I could not believe that such high-tech instruments were made here in my hometown. I learned how the company was started by a NASA engineer who did tons of research in applying technology to acoustic guitars. He found that by using various bracing patterns in these guitars, he could make them sound like vintage wood guitars. I also learned that this was a company that listened to musicians, and was open to my ideas. Well after that I started finding all the reviews I could on CA guitars. Like I thought, people are seeing or better yet hearing for themselves how great CA guitars sound. In fact Sam from our fan club and I shared a few emails on these guitars, and they blew him away also. He did like I did and took his Adamas models to compare with the CA guitar, and like I found out the CA had a tone the Adamas could not touch. I have never heard a guitar as balanced as the CA Legacy. It is a sound that I can no way describe. You just have to play one for yourself to find out. I almost didn't respond to this thread, because I really don't like the Ovation vs. the other guitar theme that a thread like this seems to bring out. All I can tell you is that CA makes a wonderful product. I had no idea how good until I sat down and tried one. Sounds like a few members of our club are finding out for themselves what I found out. Just play one, that is all I ask. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | ... I learned how the company was started by a NASA engineer who did tons of research in applying technology to acoustic guitars. He found that by using various bracing patterns in these guitars, he could make them sound like vintage wood guitars...
Hmmm, sound familiar ??? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm fishing here at little as you might guess, but here goes. Of the folks that have TRIED and LIKED the CA guitar. Would you say it sounded like the comparable wood guitar or what?
I'm asking for just a little more detail in comments like "it sounds acoustically amazing," "best sounding non-wood guitar I've ever heard," "better sonding guitar acoustically," and " totally dedicated to making the best sounding acoustic guitars they can"
All of these are admirable comments, but they don't really mean anything to me without an understanding of what you are comparing too.
I have been hanging around more and more acoustic players and there is a trend that I have brought up before, so I'm trying to see where CA fits in. I have heard(a demo) and played (just a little noodling) on two CA guitars over the past couple of years, and their sound doesn't even come up on my radar as worth a second glance. But, I know there is a reason for that. I think classic acoustic guitars like the old Martin D-45 sound is dated. We can do MUCH MUCH better, but players tend to lean toward that sound. To be more specific, if the guitar is bright, to me that is not good. If it seems deep, again... not good. If it has lots of "punch" or mid-range, again, not good. Chords and notes in the money frets should sound no different in volume or fullness than notes and chords at the 12 fret, nor should there be a need to play much differently to get a similar sound all the way up'down the neck. A new technology guitar should have lower lows than a wood guitar, and higher highs, and be smooth across all of the frequecies. Oh, and a composite material guitar should be at least twice the volume overall of a comparable (target audience) wood guitar.
I think this is where the Q technology came about. I think it's a waste of time to make a composite guitar that sounds like a wood box guitar. Speaking of box... I'm not sure when guitars got square, but that's just acoustically silly to me, so I am also a little biased toward Ovation and other rounded backs, or at least ones with rounded corners on the back. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Miles, all I can say is that for 22 years I thought there was only one guitar. That was my model 1687 Adamas. I took my Adamas to the CA factory of my own doing. They did not ask me to compare it to their guitars. In fact they said nothing but wonderful things about the Adamas. To my ears the CA blew the Adamas away. I have never heard a guitar sound like that. We could go on and on and on trying to describe how a guitar sounds. To me the CAs sound better, that is all there is to it. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "He found that by using various bracing patterns in these guitars, he could make them sound like vintage wood guitars."
I guess I was making my post, while this was being typed... It does sound familiar, but in any case, this may have been a neat idea 30 years ago, but I say we can do better. Nothing wrong with copying that sound, but if you are trying to do something new... it makes no sence to me to copy "the vintage sound." Remember that sound was not engineered but rather just the result of the best they could do around 150 years ago. Is that it. Somone managed to get a pleasing sound out of wood and steel 150+ years ago, and that's the best anyone is ever going to do with any material ever again in history?? I'm sure glad they didn't use that same mindset for Electric guitars, Cars, Computers (the Abacus?) Motorcycles and womens longerie just to name a few. |
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Location: SoCal | I, for one, am damned proud that a guitar, the CA, was named after my home state. |
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Location: SoCal | Competition drives out the weak and spurs on the strong...in most cases, Adamas and Ovation have been fighting the wood boxes. I don't believe they were having to compete so much on playability and sound as against the bias to traditional wood and shape. Now, a little competition in non-wood/composite.
It worked in the golf industry. Callaway, Taylor Made, and others drove technology to a point that they had to have limits set by the USGA. Wasn't that long ago the woods were made of wood and steel v. composite shafts (before that, wood shafts.)
I don't have a problem with using a classic as a benchmark such as a Stratovarius for violins. Don't know if we have found the benchmark for a guitar.
From my untrained ear - the acoustic Ovation sounds better than the same model with a pre-amp. If so, interesting how the pre-amp can affect the acoustic sound - easy solution is to physically reduce the size or position of the box, or baffle the bowl to reduce the effect. IMHO, 10-15% improvement in an a/e by taking out the pre-amp. Took the pre-amp out of the 1669 temporarily - improvement. To me, the acoustic 1118 GC or 1158 CL 12's sound better as acoustic than the a/e versions. Notice that the bowl didn't change as they went to a/e or larger "boxes" inside the bowl. Not advocating having an acoustic, too often we need an a/e. When I had a 1158, always wished I had gotten the 1658.
Wonder how the CA compares against the prototype Adamas we were so excited about last year (Woz has it.) Sure had some nice industry reviews. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
...I'm sure glad they didn't use that same mindset for Electric guitars...
But, haven't manufacturers? How many single-cut LP clones are there? Double-cut Stratocopies? Single-cut Teles? PRS-like carved tops? I don't see a lot of innovation in electrics, either. It does happen though...Brian Moore guitars are interesting with the built in Roland pickup, there's a more-or-less local guy that builds some wild shapes that look nothing like the big-name stuff.
Amps are the same, too...everyone is trying to get a 'better' JCM/Plexi/Jump/Tweed/Deluxe/Twin/whatever sound than the original...but they're all trying to copy the original sound first, instead of coming up with something sonically original.
Players are guilty...how many guys do you hear in Guitarget trying to hammer/tap like Eddie? Shred like Vai? Play chords like Angus? Almost every one I've watched has gone to the trouble, first, of getting the 'right' guitar and the 'right' amp setup before putting on their show.
I've had this discussion with my teacher. I don't *want* to sound like B. B. King, Clapton, or Vaughn. I don't want my amp to be a Marshall or a Fender (or even a clone trying to be a Marshall or a Fender). I want my guitar to be something different...but man, given market forces, that's hard to do. When I play a song, I want it to sound like I'm playing it, interpreting the original, personalizing it...I don't want people to go, "Gosh, that sounds just like ." To me, that's failure on an artistic/creative level.
But, I digress...and now I get off my soapbox. :) I just want a guitar that sounds good, plays well, is built to last, is unique in it's approach...just like me. And my Ovation, which doesn't try to be anything other than what it is...and succeeds. YMMV. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by cruster:
I don't *want* to sound like B. B. King, Clapton, or Vaughn. I don't want my amp to be a Marshall or a Fender
When I play a song, I want it to sound like I'm playing it, interpreting the original, personalizing it...I don't want people to go, "Gosh, that sounds just like ." To me, that's failure on an artistic/creative level.
YMMV.
Well said and I could not aggree more. If more players had this attitude then going to see a local band might stop being the sad depressing bore-fest it usually is. |
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Location: NJ | ". . . then going to see a local band might stop being the sad depressing bore-fest . . "
. . . oh, so then you HAVE seen TwoManGroup . . . :rolleyes: |
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Location: SoCal | I agree with what cruster and Temp have to say, but it really doesn't matter that much what I'm playing thru. I'm still going to sound like me. I could play an original slothead or a Celeb and ultimately, it's still me playing. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yes Moody, we've all experience your pain. Well, at least those of us that heard you play (just kidding).
Back to the topic of CA. Let's face it there is just no way one can describe in words the sound of a guitar - good or bad. What's good to me may be bad to you. The only way to judge (to your satisfaction only) is to play test side by side. At least 2 members have tested the CA side by side against top of the line adamas and came away impressed. Two other members played CA and didn't care for it at all. Hey that's life.
Miles post is even more difficult to digest (sorry, man). The goal is noble, but how the hell do you define what a modern guitar SHOULD sound like? And no two people would agree on the same goal. To me, the perfect acoustic guitar would sound just like CSN&Y or James Taylor. But I could play the exact same instruments as they did and not sound anything like them. In fact, I would sound more like Moody. |
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Location: Scotland | Paul, it's not just a reference to gear, it's the whole philosophical approach to being a musician. Some players regardless of technical abilty or for that matter the gear they use, can develop their own voice & identity, others just want to be clones of Hendrix or Clapton or Josh Homme or whoever. Everyone has influences, but that's all it should be, an influence, not a second-rate copy.
As for the CA guitars, I spent some time talking to the guys who make them at NAMM. They were a nice bunch, very passionate & knowledgable, and they gave me a killer bottle of Hot Sauce. They have a great product. I was especialy taken with the resonator prototype, but while I think they are light-years ahead of Rainsong they don't quite have it.......yet. I'll check 'em out again in Jan. Are they "better" than an Adamas? Not for me, they don't have the consistency of tone & volume accross the entire playable range that any Ovation has, graphite top or not, and that's one of the main reasons I play Ovations. But then it depends on your definition of "better". Remember some people actually think Taylors are better than Ovations. How ridiculous is that? |
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Standingovation, I can't agree that words can't describe the sound of a guitar. In the past I earned my living as a writer and, after mining through countless old threads on this board, I can safely say that, for a bunch of non-professional writers (I assume!), many OFCers have done a pretty darn good job of describing in words the sound of various guitars. While it may be difficult to find the words to describe some of the subtler nuances of a guitar's sound, it's not impossible. |
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Location: Omaha | I hope none of us are letting our biases (or our insecurities!) influence us one way or the other as we judge the tone and viability of different kinds of instruments.
I took my son shopping for a "starter acoustic" a couple weeks ago. I had my own preconcieved notions about which brands were going to sound better, and that we ought to try to find a solid top in his price range if possible (I still believe that, to a degree).
We messed with everything at the $129-250 price point. Ibanez, Fender, Epiphone, Alvarez. The best sounding and playing one of the bunch caught me by surprise: it was the Hohner models at @ $129, with gig bag. Every one I played sounded consistently better than the other stuff in that price range. The only thing that kept him from buying one was that he wanted to see/try the sunburst one, and they didn't have any of those (I thought the "mahogany" top and black one were both nice!).
I'm learning to keep an open mind. Most of my electrics are Warmoth's that I've built, set up and wired myself. When I play anything else under 2 grand, it just can't compare in feel or tone.
I'm biased when it comes to acoustics: I like Larrivees. I think they're consistently excellent sounding guitars, and are (usually) made to the highest standards - Jean Larrivee still insists on making all solid wood guitars;(I know - that may change someday).
I'm not crazy about Taylor, or Takemine, or Seagull, or most Gibsons. I like about 25% of the Martins I play; I know, they sound better with age, right...Larrivee's sound great the day they leave the factory. The best sounding Garrisons I've played have been - surprise - the mostly wood Chinese ones that are only around $250!
A friend of mine was concerned when I ordered an Ovation that I might not like it, since I've played Larrivees for so long. We'll see; I'm keeping an open mind. My goal isn't to replace my Larrivees, but to get the best sound possible for live playing; if the O does that, I'll be happy.
I think CA are on to "the next good thing;" I can't wait to play one. And if they're "THAT" good; I'd even be willing to part with a Larrivee to have one!
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Location: SoCal | SoCal Adoption Agency is open 24/7 for rejected, non-appreciated A's and O's. Of course, at a high discount...
The way I look at it, wonderful that there are so many fine instruments, whatever the headstock logo, price, materials, and playing style to choose from. A good guitarist (not me) could get an enjoyable sound from a $200 or a $20,000 guitar, wood or composite. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well I guess some got what I was asking. I do think you can establish a goal without having a solid benchmark. I think Ovation is so close to the goal they can taste it, but it's just close. There are some basic mechanical issues that Paul pointed out. So far Ovation seems to be the only maker who can achieve consistant tone, volume and touch up and down the neck. I guess I'm assuming most people think that's "better" but maybe not. If CA at least got rid of the corners with some filler of some sort inside the box, and did a lot of engineering on the top, then I guess that would level out the consistancy up and down the neck, and then there would be some serious competition for tone. I don't play all over the neck, but if I'm shopping for an instrument, if it fails the first couple of tests, ot it's two guitars for the same price and one can do something that the other can't... I just put the inferior of the two back on the hanger.
I guess for that matter... why should an acoustic guitar have an upper and lower bout and be shaped the way it is anyway.
As far as electircs, sure there are plenty of clones.. but there are way to many to count boutique guitar and amp folks out there that are looking to just go farther. Even Seymour Duncan (not a boutique) is experimenting and creating pickups that are more sensative, and have a wider frequency response, and do lots of things that could not be done 20 years ago. Sure the "standard" ones sell more, but at least there is an attempt to use different materials to create different results. Ovation seems to be trying this with the Guitar, but then folks like Rainsong and CA are trying to clone a wood guitars sound. Nothing wrong with that, it certainly sells, and I guess that's the point. I just think of you have that much interest... be original.
I'd almost always rather listen to a local band play music I don't like that's original, than listen to a coverband for the most part. I have seen one coverband that I will go back to everytime I am in Ohio and that's Reagonomics, but they area unique in their own way anyway. |
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Report from Nashville on CA guitars
