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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Did anyone on the tour happen to hear the number of Ovations that are built on a daily basis. I did hear that the Hamer group manages to get out around 3/day but I never got an Ovation number. |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Hey: Bill
I enjoyed the time spent getting to know you along with everyone else... It might be a simple math "thing" but review the SN#s by year and divide by 18 production days per month... That would give you a ballpark...
It sure was fun getting the inside look. Once again without the "Club" I would have never made the tour. Thanks Al, Miles, and......
Woz |
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Location: The Shop | 45 |
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Location: out there | ONLY 45???? I thought Ovation was much bigger than that! What is Martin or Taylor? I heard Martin was 200 a day and Taylor was 120 but don't know if those are true numbers.
This is a product that I love!! What are they doing to it??? Are the suits that incompetent that it's down to 45 a day?!? What is the plan, let it get down to 30 a day then move it all overseas with the typical suitish justification BS that they always feed us and we see through immediately. Do they really think that the public is that stupid? |
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Location: Scotland | Hamer is something like 3 a day. The figure is low simply because Ovations are labour-intensive to produce & involve a lot of hand work. You should have done the tour. I do not see the logic in how you equate low production figures to some kind of corporate plot, or that higher figures mean a better product. To me smaller production suggests a quality product where time & effort is invested, rather than a factory which throws together hundreds per day. |
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Location: out there | Dear Paul, It's not the low figures, it's the ever decreasing figures. I dare say Hamer was probably higher before it was aquired. I sence all the factory people are fanatical about what they do, aren't there any guitar fanatics wearing coats and ties? |
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Location: NJ | Hamer was a bigger facility in Arlington Heights. As for the current product of Ovations I too do not follow the logic that the amount produced has anything to do with competition etc. |
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Location: NJ | So, . . your solution would be . . what? . . . "pushing" production to get "numbers up"? The pace at the factory was somewhat "brisk". By no means was it "Detroit", and if a person had a circumstance that may have required a little extra attention, there was ample opportunity to do so. Things moved along efficiently, but there was no Lucy & Ethel on the chocolate line. If the "suits" (as you put it) need to have the high production numbers and the efficiency experts creaming in their jeans, they can go to Korea to have that (and they do). I honestly can't see New Hartford being "banged up" in favor of relocating the line overseas because: A.) there's entirely TOO much history there to forsake, 2.) it's not only a production facility, but a VERY state of the art R&D operation sharing technology with the aviation siblings.
When we sat in the R&D office for our discussion, I thought that I heard Darren say that the day's "number" was in the 70's, but I may heard that wrong. No matter. Look at the production numbers of Collings or Larivee or comparable. These are well respected instruments that garner a nice price. I'd feel more comfortable about paying more money for a 1 of 45 for that day than a 1 of 350 that probably has a higher degree of things "getting by" on the "line".
I'd think twice about casting aspersions without seeing it first hand.
My biggest beef is that the QUALITY of the USA line isn't (or hasn't) been pushed enough in the public eye. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Anyone else that was on the tour besides me feeling a little offended by the negative comments from people that wern't there? If anybody would take the time to read some of the previous posts about the factory tour they might be able to understand the care and craftsmanship that goes into every O that is "cranked out" of the factory, I am very proud to own one of the 45. As far as "the suits" go, I think that the people we met were wearing offical Ovation suits and were actually the movers and shakers of the company. Just because 2 of the executives were at a trade show doesn't mean that our comments won't be heard. (Don't forget, W-2 was there.) Thanks for comming Bill!! |
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Location: NJ | Willard
I agree. Plenty of big talk behind the computer keyboard but when it was time to go up there and ask the tough questions...well we all know who were there...
You cannot change things overnight. I think we see progress in the right direction.
It is no secret I have friends in the Ovation organization, but I am honest with them also and tell them what I think. I'm sure they don't always like it but that is the way it is. It serves no useful purpose to make a drive by on the message board. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "Are the suits that incompetent that it's down to 45 a day?!? "
That is an odd approach. I was actually very surprised that they were UP to 45 a day. I was so impressed by the work ethic. There did not seem to be any pressure for numbers of units like the x number necks and y number of tops, but more of a "just do it correctly." The only way I see to increase numbers is to add people at all of the stations, which would probably mean either more space or shifts... and what would that accomplish? I may be wrong, but after seeing the hand work from the number of people it takes to make ONE guitar... THANK GOD for the corperate structure. With labor and materials I can't imagine the price of the USA models actually paying for themselves, or if they do... it's close to the vest as they say. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I wish I could have gone on the factory tour. And, I wish I could have met Bill Kaman. I have a bunch of questions for him....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Shelton, Washington, USA | 45 a day?.... gee, that makes the 4 that i have that much more special now.... |
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Location: NJ | Jeeeez, Jim! Where ya' been?!
Welcome back! |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | This is a central issue on many of our discussions. Is a guitar a product that can be produced like a car, with every penny of cost spreadsheeted to the nth degree to produce this revenue producing product. Or, is it a piece of art that produces superior sound for a premium price that raises it above the flotsam of plywood and cheapwood products from the 10 cent an hour countries that teach production values at the end of a whip. Prior to WWII, instrument making in America was a work done by artisans, not assembly line workers imported from car manufacturers. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | This has really strayed from my original question, which has been answered, but I can't hold back any longer...
Guess who trained the Asian countries...It was Corporate America. We went in and showed them how to manufacture things and set up their factories and gave them blueprints of what we wanted them to mass produce, the US government even helped with the financing. Ya know why we gave them all this help? Because they were willing to work for 10 cents/hour and ride bikes to work while the US labor market wanted new cars, TV's, stereos, lake cabins, Big Bikes for the kids,guitars, ect. The Asian workforce is still rideing bikes to work and working for 10 cents/hour but now the US workers want even more than before and they can afford it because.....The Asian workforce works for 10 cents/hour. I can't exclude myself from the US workforce but I really can't blame the Asians for picking up the ball and doing a fantastic job with what WE taught them. They make a pretty nice Ovation guitar too!!! |
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Location: out there | Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying push production. I'm saying push sales and marketing and CREATE the demand. Worry about how to make them later. (Cranking up the factory is the easy part). Get the product on stage everywhere and on TV again. Why is it that the best Ovation print ad is the one for Dean Markley strings? Make the public WANT the guitar, that's the hard part.
And yes it's been confirmed that 45 is the number. Once it was well over 100/day, when the company had all the hot endorsees and was on TV all the time and on every stage across the country. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | I think there's a huge difference between
$.10 an hour and a living wage. You can get by living in Korea for substantially less than you can living here in the good ole US of A. And those that benefit the most from that difference are those "suits" previously mentioned.
I once read somewhere that if the Japanese could choose between a beautiful,plump, Florida grown orange at a price of $.50, and a shriveled up, miserable excuse for an orange grown in Japan at a price of $5.00, that they would buy the Japanese orange- based on principle. They care more about taking care of their own people than any one elses. Spare me the argument about their current economy as all economies are cyclical (remember the '80's?). And there must be some economic benefit to manufacturing there, or else we wouldn't be there..
Americans, in particular, stand to lose the most in this 'global economy' as our standard of living is higher than those third world countries that we're subbing our manufacturing to (if not third world, then second world?? ie Mexico, Korea etc etc...) and the only replacement for for these bread and butter jobs are minimum wage service jobs?? Wow, we have alot to look foward to :( |
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Location: NJ | Rich
I challenge you to find any electronic gear made in the USA aside from some high end hi fi stuff. Most is assembled from parts made overseas at best.
there are no tv's vcr's dvd's made in the us at all. Most of the technology is developed here and then enhanced and manufactured overseas.
Service oriented jobs is the fastest rising field of employment.
McIntosh (now owned by a Japanese concern) put out a USA made hifi tube amplifier for the y2K and it was 20K or something crazy. Are you familiar with manley? their stuff is made in the US and very expensive many people don't buy it because of the price. Still it is a highly respected company with a high quality product. The average consumer would buy the equivalent made in China Behringer unit (sorry Miles) at 1/10th the cost. In a certain respect I cannot blame them. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | As Al stated, it's really hard to find a consumer product that is 100% USA. Not even motorcycles anymore. I lean towards products that embrase global practises in a smart way. Behringer ( I don't appologize for spending wisely) is a choice of mine because much like early Ovation did, the German mothership of Behringer own the factory in China, and the QC is controlled from Germany. There are plenty of companies that contract overseas, and the product goes straight to consumer (retail stores) for even more cost savings. That is just silly no matter where it is made. If a product was contracted to Texas from a NY company, I'd be happier to know the QC was being done by the home office in NY.
I totally agree that we should buy U.S.A, but only if it makes sence and is the best for the money. I bought a Polaris motorcycle instead of a Harley because I think it's better designed, it's less expensive, and there are more USA parts and companies involved with Polaris than in a Harley. Ovation... same deal. USA line = lots of good'ol handwork for the Connecticut Yankees. Imports also support the R&D and output of the USA Models.. all cool.
I'm not sure our "standard of living is higher" than the countries we have mentioned and I always wondered who decided on this 1st, 2nd and 3rd world ratings. I Love the good'ol USA. I served 14+ years in the Navy and another 10+ on government contracts, but if I could make it work, I'd like to live in Korea or Germany for ahwile too.
As far as "the only replacement for for these bread and butter jobs are minimum wage service jobs" is more a factor of our ethics than anything else. The bread'n butter salaries are paid by companies that can afford quality workers and are willing to pay and even higher cost to keep them. One of the reasons I got out of the Navy before a retirement was because the ethic there, and I notice in the rest of the our country, seems to have gone from an employee asking "what can I do for you?" to "what are you going to do for me?" I think this attitude is going to hurt us in the long run, and in fact already has started to hurt us. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Too many threads/posts about Korean made O's at one time... I just reread THIS thread and my diatribe doesn't seem to fit :o I gotta quit reading every thread in one sitting... |
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Location: NJ | Miles sorry to jump on your Behringer parade but you post seems to indicated that every behinger item is shipped from China to Germany and then tested. I sincerly doubt this and find no evidence of it on their website.
From what they say on their website they are basically a distribution company with R & D in Germnany, offices and a service center.
Yes, the product has massive bang for the buck but seems to be the "tapco" of the new century. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | No apology necessary. I'm sure they don't test each one, much like I doubt Ovation tested every import guitar. I believe they sample a few from each batch. In this country they are becoming the Tapco which in my book is a good thing. I see clubs and other installations of what seems like 20 year old tapco stuff working just fine. Of the new gear I have been looking at available, I hold up Behringer to ANY of the competition up to about 5 times the price. I recently took a tour of the 48 channel mixer I was going to get when I got the Allen & Heath instead which I thought was "da bomb". I should have held out for the Behringer. Oh well, live and learn. I spent roughtly 50K on outboard gear for the studio instead of 500K. I'm happy. |
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Location: Scotland | I'll go with Miles on this. Behringer is the red-headed step-child of pro audio, and that is mostly unfair. Most of their designs are borrowed, and I know there are or were reliability issues with certain products, but no other manufacturer comes close in terms of price/performance ratio (having said that, their guitar amps suck) It's like comparing a Rode NT2 to a Neumann U87. The Neumann is without question superior, but to the vast majority of users is that superiority worth an extra 2 grand? The same could be said of of the Korean/USA Ovations, though it's probably unfair to compare an electronic/hardware product to a musical instrument. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Yeah I agree... effects, mixers and outboard gear they are great with. The fact that they "copied" some of the best designs on the planet is even better.. but the guitar amps just don't cut it. I don't know why they even went there. Personally I think it was just so when they outfit the big Euro shows the back line has their name on it (instead of Marshall etc...) |
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How Many O's
