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Location: Parkersburg, WV | First of all I envy all of you that can make it to the upcoming factory tour. Hopefully some day I can visit the birthplace of my Adamas II and Custom Balladeer.
I understand there might be a question & answer session with the people at the factory. I'm sure that the topic of deep bowls will come up but I've got a couple of other questions you might want to ask.
1. The Kaman/Ovation website has the ability to be the ideal marketing & information tool. People will come to you for info, yet the sight is badly outdated. If I was interested in an Adamas I would be directed to a site that for months has contributed only "Coming Soon". No flashy graphics needed just up to date information.
2. Bring back Ovation accesories. When someone is willing to pay around $70.00 for an Ovation strap with the rossette this tells me there may be a market out there for new product.
3. Bring back White(-6) as a finish. This is somewhat of a personal request since I missed my window of opportunity back in the early '90s when white was part of the production run for Legends, Elites etc. I just may have to custom order.
Just a few thoughts. I do wish all of you a safe trip to and from. I look forward to intersting posts and pictures when you all return.
Patsbro.
P.S. If you are introduced to the individual(s) who came up with the Tangent, please don't laugh or make fun of them. I'm sure they have feelings :D |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Patsbro, can you please e-mail me ,I have a white guitar question I would like to ask you...Paul Hebert |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | the conceptees of the Tagament deserve to be ridiculed. Particularly for how the introduction was goofed. Forget to do your patent research boys?
Very good point made about the web site. |
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Location: NJ | ". . . lemme at 'em! . . . lemme at 'em! . . ." |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Getting the RIGHT PEOPLE to listen will be the key. If you already have guitars flying off the shelf as fast as you can import them, and you are selling USA Models as fast as you can make them (obviously because it is rare to see one in a store) it would seem little things like updating a website, or pushing visability are a hard sell. I think in the long run, this is not a good plan, but I can see the logic just the same. Eventually the movers and shakers who ARE flooding the market with advertising and visability are the one that will win.
One of my recording clients is a blues artists that is very open minded to instruments. He went shopping for a new guitar recently and came home with a new Taylor. He tried everything else, except Ovation because it was just too much work to find one. He has played my Adamas on his recordings, he has played my Mandolin too. He has been impressed with the sound, but he is a traditional guy in the sence that he picks up an instrument and it either speaks to him or doesn't. I bet he would have bought an Ovation if he had the opportunity to give them a fare shake. He has (still has) my copy of the Kaki King CD, which is an awesome display of what an Ovation can do, and it's "his type" of music. Just sad, that he probably won't ever get to own an Ovation, and he really should be playing one. |
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Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Patsbro, do you think anyone would really admit to designing the Tangent guitar? Geez, what a horrible thing that guitar is. The headstock is a crime. I can't believe that this is the same company that made my Adamas. Horrible, just horrible!...Paul Hebert |
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Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | The initial Tangent I do wonder about. A roundback with an Ernie Ball headstock???? IN the words of Seinfeld "what's that about?" Now the MOB I like. It has a theme, and it doesn't compete with the USA Models. A totally different guitar for a totally differnt market. Having just come from 10 days in Hawaii, I can totally see a market for an inexpensive "surf" guitar. Cool idea. Makes more sence then the entire Applause or Celeb line as far as I'm concerned, because it's not trying to be something it isn't. It's clearly a surf/skate guitar.
By the way, Rick, weren't you supposed to send me one to take with me to play on the beach? |
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Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I just saw that MOB the other day in a store, and I had to double check if I was in Toys R Us! I didn't try the guitar, but to me the blue back just made it look like a cheap toy.
Oh dear.
Johnny |
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Posts: 38
Location: Seattle | Speaking of klunker models,anyone remember the Thunderbolt? The Tangent could be it's better looking cousin. How about that model (think it was an Applause) with the metal neck w/ frets cast in (adjustable by bending over your knee). There are a few "what the hell were they thinking" models in Ovation's closet...and I've owned them all. Kinda wish I still did. Traded the Thunderbolt for a dog. I think the Applause rusted.
Hearing lots of good things about the Elite T. Played one in a store recently and was impressed w/ full sound.
Long live Ovation. |
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Location: NJ | John;
What store did you see that MOB in?
I saw/played an Elite-T over at Richie's Music in Rockaway. Pretty nice!! Sounded real good and looked alot better than I anticipated it would. To me, the neck/fingerboard seemed a bit skinny but maybe it's because I'm just used to older Ovation necks. They were selling it for around $638 (I think it was). I thought about trying to convince my partner to ditch his Korean Fender POS for one of these, but he's too headstrong on one of those ESP's with the quilted maple top (no accounting for taste). |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Strummin, the MOB is terrible. The blue back is the cheapest looking thing I have ever seen on an Ovation. Dang, who designs this crap? Here we have the Tangent concept made even more terrible. What is wrong with Ovation? DAMN!....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Ct./ USA | I wonder, were is this instrument built? The "EM-OH-BE"? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Why hail sun, it's probly made in Ko-Reeah if not in Chiner. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Miles, Selling USA guitars as fast as they can make them because you never see them in stores...
Maybe you can't or don't sell very many so you cut back production so you don't make so many so then there aren't so many so it looks the other way????
Tinkaboutit! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | cwk2, I went down that road too of the lower production. I was just trying to be positive :)
On the otherside of things, I guess at least they aren't doing what you descibed about Martin! That's just silly.
As far as the MOB, it is what it is. It DOES NOT have the Ovation headstock and it is not for "traditional" guitar players. If you think Avril Lavigne is a goddess, and Tony Hawk is god, then the MOB Looks pretty cool and tha Adamas is a apiece of furnature.... but we went down this road before. Personally I like diversity. I am basically an electric player, so when I go into even a Guitar center, I have to read each label to tell the difference between a Celeb and an Adamas which I think is a BIG mistake. At least the MOB doesn't look like anything else. That's why it's advertised in surf magazines NOT guitar magazines. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Miles, would the MOB make a good surfboard? Let us sum this up. Ovation won't make deep bowl guitars that sound good. But they will market a guitar at the young "surf"generation. BILL KAMAN WHERE ARE YOU? WE NEED YOU!....Paul Hebert |
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Location: NJ | Am I the only person that liked the thunderbolt???? |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I like the P-47 Thundebolt...Paul Hebert |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | My vote is still out on the Thunderbolt. I have played one, and even recorded a tune that I am sure I will never play as well ever again on it (it was a magical moment). So, some days I like it, I just don't get it.
As far as not "getting it".. This didn't make sence to me...
"Ovation won't make deep bowl guitars that sound good." They do, you just have to ask.
"But they will market a guitar at the young "surf" generation."
I have no problem with that, as they aren't making the guitars, some factory in Korea is.
Just FYI, based on what I think you are getting at, you do realize that Kaman Music Corp is primarily a distributer of musical instruments that just happens to include Ovation guitars right? It is not a Guitar manufacturer that distributes other stuff. USA Ovations and Imports are two totally different topics. I would guess ALL of the amps, guitars, drums, cloths, and who knows what else that is distributed helps insure that there are USA Ovations being made. I don't know for sure... but I would guess 1000 Deep Bowl Ovations would not pay the electric bill at the factory for a week. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Miles, there was a time when I didn't have to ask to get a deep bowl Ovation. Why do I have to ask? Or better yet, why does Ovation seem not to care much about the acoustic sound of their guitars. Why is Ovations slogan "get plugged in"? I seem to remember Charles Kamam was trying to make a better SOUNDING GUITAR. Miles, you often say that you are an electric player, and sometimes that really shows. How anyone can defend a company that once made the Adamas 1 making crap like this MOB I will never understand. Sure the MOB is made in Korea, but it still says Ovation on the headstock. And it really pains me to think that this is what many new players will see the first time they play an Ovation.....Paul Hebert |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ahhhhhh I see where you are with this (finally :) We are actually closer to the same page than you think, I just gave up banging my head against the wall once I realized a few things.... or at least THINK I realized a few things. Most of the following is totally speculation based on observations...
"there was a time when I didn't have to ask to get a deep bowl Ovation. Why do I have to ask"
This is a good question. Didn't they make deep bowls for Japan up until recently?? Maybe just not enough folks bought them.
"I seem to remember Charles Kamam was trying to make a better SOUNDING GUITAR"
I guess after you have heard a SLOTHEAD, you kindof wonder where ANY of the guitars made by Ovation came from. I heard Cliff's and I know my Adamas or Adamas II is never going to sound like that. The Q might, but I haven't heard one. This leads into my next.....
"why does Ovation seem not to care much about the acoustic sound of their guitars"
I think they care a lot. But the people that MAKE the guitars (read Ovation) are not the people SELLING the guitars (read Kaman Music Corp) and telling them what to make.
"How anyone can defend a company that once made the Adamas 1 making crap like this MOB I will never understand. Sure the MOB is made in Korea, but it still says Ovation on the headstock."
This is the spot that I don't quite understand. The Company that once made the Adamas is not making the MOB, but like you said/asked why does it say Ovation.... Well, Ovation on the headstock will sell help it sell.
I think in the days of Charlie and Bill the idea was make a good guitar, and see if we can sell it. Now it seems marketing and research figures out what will sell the most (note I said the most as in quantity) and tells the builders to build it. This may not be correct, but it's just my opinion.
I think the Elite-T and guitars like the 2001 Collectors are excellent examples of workmanship. I also totally agree that as it was in the early days, the headstock should only say Ovation on the USA models. If you don't like the MOB or Tangent, you really should loath the whole celebrity line for the same reason. My Medallion has Medallion on the headstock, and Ovation on the label inside. I think that's how it should be. Just like Applause is on the headstock, Celebrity should be on the headstock, and it could then say Ovation inside. But that's not going to happen because they can sell more Celebrities if they say Ovation on the headstock. There seems to be a little inconsistancy. THe Adamas has "Adamas" on the headstock, Applause has "Applause" on the headstock, so why not "Tangent" and "Celebrity".
If the people MAKING the guitars had anything to do with it... maybe they would.
I find this all interesting, and I understand I may be totally wrong on my theories. But I find biz models interesting. I guess this last comment will sum up my perspective. There are two reasons to run a corperation. To make money (as in profit), or to employ people. I'm not sure which KMC is. There are other buisnesses which follow their passion to make a quality product and hope folks will buy it (this is how I believe Ovation started). Unfortunately if they do too good a job, they find themselves becoming one of the first two options, and that just seems to be history, and I don't know why. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Miles, good points. I guess I am so passionate about deep bowl Ovations because I have used my Adamas so many times to defend Ovation. If I heard someone in a music store makes comments about Ovations, I would take out my Adamas and say listen to this. It seems Ovation doesn't make many guitars that can hold their own acousticly against the competition anymore. Im not talking al the latest preamps, tone controls and such. I am talking comparing guitars just on their tone quality. Like I said before, acoustic guitar first...Paul Hebert |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm right with you on those points. For that matter I'm just tired of most people who don't already own Ovations thinking that they just make the Celebs. And this INCLUDES SALES PEOPLE IN OVATION DEALERSHIPS!!!!
Speaking of pre-amps.. maybe I shouldn't even go there.... but I just did some research on the pre-amps and sent Al a note.. I'll just paste it here.. and maybe someone can point out what I'm missing.
I was just looking at the OP30 40 50 specs with the OP24 specs. NO WONDER the OP 24 sounds better. Right there on the website are the freq ranges of the pre-amps. The op 40 has the best spread, but 90% of it's range is well above the highest note (or harmonics for that matter) of any guitar or HUMAN HEARING. The OP-24 range actually starts lower than any of the others (20hz which makes for the deeper richer tones) and only goes up to 20kHz which is well above the 2.6 Khz (24th fret E) on a guitar. Even figureing 3rd 4th and 5th harmonics, the OP30 etc pre-amps mid range, is near the top of the hearing range (about 14-20khz). The OP-30 goes up to 100 kHz, but only starts at 27 Hz. The OP 24 is 20hz - 20kHz... PERFECT for just about any musical instrument. What were they thinking with the 30 40 and 50's ??? and why??
And one more note... why are their ANY controls on the pre-amp anyway. There should just be a jack on the guitar. They did this with the Fokelore recently and I think it was BRILLIANT. |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Miles, Although human hearing is theoretically capable of 20Hz to 20Khz having a preamp which will boost frequencies lower than around 70hz (the lowest frequency on a standard tuned guitar is 82Hz) is asking for trouble as it can produce a muddy indistinct low-end and promote LF feedback. Anything below 35hz is considered subsonic & unless you have enclosures capable of reproducing frequencies that low you wont hear or feel them. I always use the Highpass filters (as long as they're 75HZ rather than 100Hz)on any channel with mikes or acoustics running through them as an electo-acoustic has nothing worth hearing lower than that in an amplified situation. Most of us at our age will have difficulty hearing anything over 15K, which coupled the deficiencies & variables in amplifiers, speaker components & enclosures tends to make the high frequency range of the preamp academic. I always tend to leave the hi & lo flat or cut rather than boost. The crucial part of any preamp eq is the frequecies at which the midrange controls are centred. It's the mid which defines the character of the amplified sound much more than the Hi & Lo. I'm still amazed that they didn't produce at least one new pre with a swept-mid control. The other consideration, and this will have a major influence on the sound of the pre's is the "Q" or bandwidth of the frequency centres. Do they quote a spec for this?
I agree with you that outboard electronics are a much better prospect, in terms of the unplugged sound & the quality & flexibility of outboard gear, than huge internal boxes. I'd guess it's easier to market bells & whistles than something inherently simple. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Which brings me back to the question if the old OP24's were overkill at 20hz to 20Khz, what's the point of a 27Hz to 100KHz? Oh wait, I know.. with all that overhead you can have the oportunity to introduce more noise and harmonic crossfeed. cool....... NOT!!!!! I wonder if this explains the Radio station bleed in another thread. I hadn't thought about this angle because I din't think a guitar pre-amp would have that much of a freq spread. |
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Questions for the Factory Forum
