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Location: cincinnati, ohio | There might be as many answers to this question as Carter has liver pills, and I'm curious to see what you guys do. Here's the scenario: You've got a guitar with onboard EQ (maybe an OP 30 preamp); an acoustic amp with EQ; and maybe a processor like a Zoom A2 or Yamaha stomp.
Which one do you EQ first; i.e., what sequence do you follow?
Edited by rick endres 2013-02-17 10:59 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I don't use a Stompbox.... But I would set the Guitar's EQ first.
Set the guitar to sound the best it can...
Then you can do whatever you want to the Box, Amp, Board, whatever.
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | I leave them all in the middle - otherwise my little brain starts to hurt. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Each setting on the A2 seems to have a different EQ, so I would go neutral on the amp, then tweak the guitar as needed. (But I'm wrong 103% of the time) |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | darkbarguitar - 2013-02-18 6:39 AM
Each setting on the A2 seems to have a different EQ, so I would go neutral on the amp, then tweak the guitar as needed. (But I'm wrong 103% of the time)
I like the way your guitars sound on your tutorials though, Bob.
Arthur, Muzza - sounds like sound advice. I use a Roland AC60 Acoustic Chorus amp (which, fortunately for me, is virtually idiot-proof). On the amp, I boost bass and treble a bit and cut the mid slightly. Then I fine-tune the OP-30 preamp to finalize the guitar sound. I use a touch of chorus most of the time, and crank up the chorus when I want a pseudo 12 string sound. I usually get an acceptable sound, but I'm always looking for something better. Once you plug in an acoustic guitar I don't think a "perfect" sound is achievable, but I'd like to give it my best shot.
Some enlightening comments so far; it'll be neat to hear from more of you.
Edited by rick endres 2013-02-18 7:33 AM
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Location: Denver, CO | I set the eq on my guitar first, using flat settings at the PA. Then tweak the PA eq at soundcheck (or let the sound guy do it if there is a sound guy that can hear and knows how to run a board  I generally set my eq at home in the music room, and rarely touch the settings when I play out. I think of it kind of like tuning drums. If the drums sound great acoustically in the practice room, they WILL sound great under mics. If they don't sound great acoustically, they aren't likely to get better when they are all miced up. The mixer/effects can only make so much difference. |
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Location: Flahdaw | All I'm gonna add is that you can get everything all set perfect, but as soon as you change a sample in the A2, it's all wrong again. (in my experience). If your gonna use the A2, you should choose the modeling sample first, then build your eq around that. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | dwg preacher - 2013-02-18 9:12 AM
I set the eq on my guitar first, using flat settings at the PA. Then tweak the PA eq at soundcheck (or let the sound guy do it if there is a sound guy that can hear and knows how to run a board
Dumb question – when you say “flat,” do you mean all the way down or at zero? I’m assuming all the way down? My EQs are set up –dB, 0, and +dB. Zero is at 12:00 on the clock face. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Yes, set at zero, or 12 o'clock. Not necessarily a dumb question. Rick, what kind of effects are you using? I'm running through a rack-mount Alesis midiVerb. I really only ever use one of 2 custom settings...but I'm considering getting Zoom A2 as well. Bob's point may have a lot of validity.
Edited by dwg preacher 2013-02-18 12:57 PM
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | dwg preacher - 2013-02-18 12:53 PM
Yes, set at zero, or 12 o'clock. Not necessarily a dumb question. Rick, what kind of effects are you using? I'm running through a rack-mount Alesis midiVerb. I really only ever use one of 2 custom settings...but I'm considering getting Zoom A2 as well. Bob's point may have a lot of validity.
Thanks. I'm basically a technophobe. If I could just play in someone's living room unamplified, that would be my dream job - but even THAT isn't really practical. Even in a living room at a house concert, you need at least some threshold amplification. In clubs, bars, and restaurants...well, you just gotta plug in. That's a given.
Forty-three years ago when we first started playing live, we just miked vocals and guitars. The acoustic guitars sounded purer, but there was the issue of feedback and uneven sound - if you moved a little it got louder or softer. We moved up to Dean Markley Pro Mag soundhole pickups for a while and then undersaddle piezo pickups. Right now I have a '71 Balladeer and '74 Pacemaker with (retrofitted) Fishman Super Natural pickups. No EQ or volume controls; you have to do it all with the amp or PA. I also have a CS 257 with an OP-30 preamp and an Ibanez AEF18TVS with a Fishman Sonicore pickup and onboard EQ.
Right now I'm not using an effects box. I've got chorus and reverb with the AC60 amp. I was using a Zoom acoustic pedal (don't remember the model number; it was the predecessor to the A2 - a silver box). I went through two of those. Really loved the sound, but I wore out two of them in the course of three years. But, MAN, they had some nice guitar voices - and the A2 is even better. I've played through a (borrowed) A2 and loved it - plus it seems to be built like a tank. Didn't play with it enough to notice any troublesome EQ issues, but I would defer to my friend Bob G on that one.
I'll just say this - having played an A2, that would be the acoustic pedal I would get. |
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Location: Denver, CO | I often plug straight into the board, too. These preamps are some of the best I have ever heard, just amped clean, and with a little reverb added in. I have a friend who plays acoustic through only a BBE Acoustimax. He plays an Elite Special, and he always sounds good. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Yup - sometimes simplest is best. 
BTW - love your quote - "Rapidly becoming someone my younger self wouldn't recognize." I passed that point some years back.
Edited by rick endres 2013-02-18 2:49 PM
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Location: Chicago | I've heard some players (DiMeola e.g.) who insist on setting their guitar flat ("0": unaffected) and work to get the desired sound from the board or amp or whatever. Only when that has been done to the max will they tweak the guitar's onboard EQ. I, on the contrary, rely heavily on my 5-band onboard EQ (Fishaman PreFix Pro). My amp is closer to "flat" with a bit of scoop in the midrange.... |
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Location: Jet City | Going backwards... PA is flat, with no effects - - I have my AC60 EQed out first, then it stays that way no matter what guitar is being played through it. all tonal coloring is done here as well as reverb (really don't use chorus live) - - Takamine DI (for boost mainly, but also filters some noise out) - - pedal board (same board electric guitar signal path runs through). there are several effects on it, but really I only use a couple, a full tone full drive, volume pedal, and sometimes delay or even a wah. - - guitar (via wireless).
So all the other stuff is setup and doesn't change, with really the AC60 being the main eq section. I usually have the guitar pretty flat, but at times will adjust depending on the room, or the situation (for leads i'll boost mids sometimes if I don't have Tak DI box handy or the AlDiMeolaII with it's boost) sometimes even if I have the full rig I gotta boost the mids and hit the boost button. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | I leave everything in the middle coz if it sounds like sh#t like that, it's gonna sound worse if I f#%k about with it! |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | muzza - 2013-02-19 5:21 AM
I leave everything in the middle coz if it sounds like sh#t like that, it's gonna sound worse if I f#%k about with it!
Actually, I went down in the music room last night and set everything up the way you do, Muzza, and it sounded pretty damned good.
Dobro, Damon - I'm going to try both methods you guys mention as well. This isn't an exact science, and in the end all that matters is how good the guitar sounds...
Edited by rick endres 2013-02-19 8:16 AM
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Location: Denver, CO | This isn't an exact science, and in the end all that matters is how good the guitar sounds... Right. And it's your ears that need to be happy. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | damon67 - 2013-02-18 7:24 PM
Going backwards... PA is flat, with no effects - - I have my AC60 EQed out first, then it stays that way no matter what guitar is being played through it. all tonal coloring is done here as well as reverb (really don't use chorus live) - - Takamine DI (for boost mainly, but also filters some noise out) - - pedal board (same board electric guitar signal path runs through). there are several effects on it, but really I only use a couple, a full tone full drive, volume pedal, and sometimes delay or even a wah. - - guitar (via wireless).
So all the other stuff is setup and doesn't change, with really the AC60 being the main eq section. I usually have the guitar pretty flat, but at times will adjust depending on the room, or the situation (for leads i'll boost mids sometimes if I don't have Tak DI box handy or the AlDiMeolaII with it's boost) sometimes even if I have the full rig I gotta boost the mids and hit the boost button.
Yep this is the way to do it. If you're not going through an AC-60 or some other pre-amp another trick is a scaled down version how to do a quick PA setup when on a time crunch. Plug your favorite tune into the amp via ipod, mp3, android, whatever.. It needs to be a tune that you are are very familiar with all of it's nuances and has lots of Dynamics. My favorite for this is Jet City Woman, but that's just me. Adjust the amp so that it sounds good and you hear everything you should. Keep in mind, a 5" speaker is not going to sound like full PA system so be reasonable with "getting it to sound good".
Once you have the amp baselined, then plug in the guitar and adjust its EQ to taste. In the real world an analyzer would be used with pink and white noise to tune the PA flat, then adjust for sound but for small applications using familiar material that you know how it is supposed to sound, is pretty effective.
The idea is... you don't want to try to adjust the guitar to overcompensate for an amp that can't do what you think it might do. If your test recording had a booming bass line, and it didn't sound booming but sounded ok... then that's as good as you're going to get. Just adding more low end on the guitar is not going to make a 5" midrange speaker sound like a 20" sub-woofer. Know the limits.
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Thanks, Miles. Sounds like a logical way to proceed. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I just noticed something misleading if taken "out of context." I edited the line to correctly read.. "Once you have the amp baselined, then plug in the guitar and adjust its EQ to taste." In other words, once the amp is set up to the best you can get it to sound then adjust the guitar eq. Of course you can always go back a tweak things if they need it but you gotta start somewhere. Using a known music source is a great way to get an idea of what the amp or pa can do. Just wanted to make sure that came across. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | damon67 - 2013-02-18 7:24 PM Blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...... mileskb - 2013-02-20 2:37 AM More blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...... Naah! I still like my method best. (only because MY method is the only one I understand...)
Edited by muzza 2013-02-21 4:08 AM
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | muzza - 2013-02-21 4:03 AM
damon67 - 2013-02-18 7:24 PM Blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...... mileskb - 2013-02-20 2:37 AM More blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...... Naah! I still like my method best. (only because MY method is the only one I understand...)
Whatever works... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | rick endres - 2013-02-21 7:37 AM
Whatever works...
This is actually a powerful phrase that usually doesn't get the credit it deserves. Our ears are the best tools for setting up sound. I have all sorts of "rules" I like to follow when setting up sound, but invariably at least one of those "rules" gets thrown out the window at every gig.
One that gets violated a LOT depending on the room and the speaker configuration involves EQ. My "rule" is to never add EQ (plus) only subtract (minus). But sometimes, you just have to add something to make it sound good in a room that is taking something away. I cringe every time I push an EQ slider past the "0" detent, but the "sound" is more important than the "rule."
The rule that NEVER gets violated is "Whatever Works" !!!! |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | mileskb - 2013-02-22 3:12 PM
rick endres - 2013-02-21 7:37 AM
Whatever works...
This is actually a powerful phrase that usually doesn't get the credit it deserves. Our ears are the best tools for setting up sound. I have all sorts of "rules" I like to follow when setting up sound, but invariably at least one of those "rules" gets thrown out the window at every gig.
One that gets violated a LOT depending on the room and the speaker configuration involves EQ. My "rule" is to never add EQ (plus ) only subtract (minus ). But sometimes, you just have to add something to make it sound good in a room that is taking something away. I cringe every time I push an EQ slider past the "0" detent, but the "sound" is more important than the "rule."
The rule that NEVER gets violated is "Whatever Works" !!!!
That's why it's so fascinating to see all these different responses. All of them, in their own way, are valid.
Miles, I've always heard that "less is more" when it comes to EQ, as you pointed out. Usually my guitar EQ sliders end up with bass and treble on 0 and mid slightly scooped... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | rick endres - 2013-02-22 2:45 PM
That's why it's so fascinating to see all these different responses. All of them, in their own way, are valid.
Miles, I've always heard that "less is more" when it comes to EQ, as you pointed out. Usually my guitar EQ sliders end up with bass and treble on 0 and mid slightly scooped...
That's a pretty typical setting. If anyone is interested in why you generally take-away rather than add certain frequencies is that taking away is really just limiting or filtering certain frequencies. They are still there, just with less volume. As example, as a rule, if you want more highs to come out, rather than push the highs, just reduce everything else.
The reason for at least trying to refrain from adding any gain to a frequency range is that unless you are using some pretty sophisticated high-end gear, you are adding more than just some gain to a frequency. There is noise and harmonics that are being amplified as well. It's a little more complicated than that but you really can't add content that just isn't there in the first place. In the case above, is it really that there's no high end and you need to push it, or is it that the mic's aren't close enough to the cymbals.
I usually get things to sound as best as I possible can after the baseline is set. Than I adjust until is sounds good. For acousting guitar, the mid "scoop" ends up being a common theme. In general PA systems tend to for whatever reason have pretty good mid range reproduction capability. The room effects the high end and low quite a bit more than the mids. More times than not, the mids will seem a little hot and harsh so the typical mid scoop works for that.
Modern analyzers are great. I use one all the time. It's really amazing what room acoustics will do. Sometimes a mix will seem real deep and muttled and it turns out the room is enhancing just one frequency area. Lower the gain of that one frequency range and like magic the whole mix comes alive. I think it's cool every time that happens..... of course that's after I actually find the offending annoyance.
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Which EQ do you set first?
