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Location: Fort Worth, TX | and even as a not-so-great musician, I believe my ears and hands can generally discern true quality.
Don't let my pal Jon fool ya. He is among the top tier of drummers you will ever encounter. He can hold his own on drums with ANYBODY, I don't care how famous they are. He has taught himself guitar in the past few years since I last saw him and has progressed admirably with it. I know people who have been pickin regularly for 10 years who aren't up to where he is on guitar as well. |
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Location: Denver, CO | Stop it, Dave! Everybody'll know where the batcave is! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | LOL.....Dave is fortunate to not only know one of the best fingerpickers on the planet but also one of the top tier drummers (no offense Jon). Dave.....where do you fit into with these world class musicians........
and yes, I am pulling your chain! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 1:03 PM
And BTW I've been on just about every scooter out there, and there are a few I would be happy to ride, but not a single brand has ever given me that mile-wide grin that a Harley can. As is music, cycling is a visceral and emotional experience.
This is probably only going to be understood only by the other bikers out there, but because like bikes, guitars are a more "visceral" as you say....
I too have ridden just about every scooter out there and can say most EVERY bike gives me the mile-wide grin except a Harley. In biker circles I just say Harley isn't my cup'i tea, cause I don't like getting beat up, but in general, to me, Harley, the bike is an embarrassment to what US Engineering is capable of. Harley, the brand on the otherhand, is an example of what all US Marketing should be.
I also find it interesting that my two favorite US Made products, Victory Motorcycles, and Ovation guitars share the same issues with marketing and perception, yet exceed all others in their class... or for that matter, are in a class of their own. Victory Vision, much like the Ovation Adamas, is not for everyone.
Now this next part is deep... so I apologize to the non-bikers if you don't get it. The difference with Harley vs Ovation is that no matter how much better ANY other bike is, no matter how much more ingenuity or cleverness any other bike ever has, and no matter how much a Harley owner may even like another brand and agree it's better.... the Harley owner can always end the conversation with a valid, positive statement...
"yeah... but it's not a Harley"..
We have the same thing in the Guitar world. No matter how much better Hamer, PRS, MCS, Godin, Musicman, etc etc etc etc... makes their version of the single cutaway, dual humbucker guitar... and for my money they ALL make a better guitar overall... The Les Paul owner gets to say.. "Yeah, but it's not a Les Paul".
So to the OP "What's the verdict on non-US made Ovations?" If you like'em, they're fantastic. I you don't, they suck. It really is that simple. |
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He can hold his own on drums
That's as far as I will go. Thanks, Dave!
Dave and I played together for about 5 years. I think maybe he has such a high opinion of me as a drummer because I always followed him on bass.  And he's no slouch on bass either! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day. |
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand | The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl. The bowl's shape projects the sound, the bowl's materials are consistent and engineered, so the variation in vibration and sound in Ovation guitars is reduced because of the bowl.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong here) the bowls on all Ovation guitars regardless of where they are built are all USA made and are all the same (except of course for the different variations in bowl depth, etc). So where does the variation come from then? The quality of the materials for the soundboard and neck would be the prime suspects, surely.
Given the use of the bowl, Ovation should be able to produce a better quality instrument for a given price than any manufacturer who needs to construct the body of the guitar from timber and form it into specific shapes. All of that takes time and even at cheap labour rates, the money spent on labour can't then be spent on higher quality materials and hardware. So, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point. |
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Location: closely held secret | Grinna - 2012-10-31 4:02 PMSo, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point.
They are.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:37 PM
Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day.
So it would seem to all boil down to whether you prefer to think of your guitar as a commodity or more of a custom made product. Intellectuals like this really add an awful lot to a discussion... thanks prof! |
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Location: Miami | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:37 PM
Back to the original topic . . .
I have taught graduate level university courses in quality management for many years. It all boils down to one basic variable: expectations. As consumers, our expectations are all based on different definitions of value. It might mean an absence of defects. It might be in the quality or rarity of materials. It could be based on reputation or history. It might be the availability or accessibility of features. Maybe it’s the availability of a warranty. For some, value might be based on convenience. Others might prefer function over form or form over function (style versus utility). However, with very few exceptions, value for most consumers is strongly influenced by cost, and for a great many, cost is overwhelmingly the most important variable. On any given day, check out how many shoppers are spending their money in Neiman Marcus compared to Target and Walmart. For the majority of shoppers, us included, our expectations are for a reasonably acceptable product that serves its intended purpose, is free of defects, is visually appealing or attractive, possibly has a recognizable brand name or logo, and sells for less than its competitors. Here is where overseas products shine. They meet the expectations of quality and definitions of value of most consumers.
As OFC members, our expectations of quality and definition of value may be very narrow and specific in the area of acoustic guitars, but I sincerely doubt that this carries forward to most other products we regularly purchase and consume. For instance, how many of us brand-shop for clothing, consistently choosing one designer over another? How about canned fruit? Fresh vegetables? Oil and gasoline? A light fixture for the garage? A loaf of bread? A can of paint? Think about this. Your decisions to buy these products are more likely based on cost and convenience, not brand name nor country of origin. Some of us may prefer to “buy American” for intrinsically motivated purposes, but that preference most likely does not extend to everything. I, for one, have a very narrow definition of value as it applies to a few select products, like guitars, amps, motorcycles, cars, and tools. For purchases of clothing, gas, food, and just about everything else in my life, however, I define value as inexpensive and convenience. So do hundreds of millions of others, and if they happen to be in the market for a guitar, then there’s a good chance that inexpensive and convenience will rule the day.
Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose? Isn't it significant that guitars, for us, come within the realm of pleasure, fun and creativity, whereas light fittings, cans of paint, and gasoline, for most of us, are merely functional items? I would have thought that when people buy things that set off the 'fun chemicals' within the brain, they'll spend much more than they will on the stuff that just gets some job done that they may not have wanted to do in the first place. No question that people want a good deal, but I'm doubtful as to whether "inexpensive and convenience" are the two driving forces behind a sweeping majority of guitar sales. For our fun stuff, don't we want the good stuff, no matter whether it's camera equipment, motor bikes, or shoes?
Edited by Timolin 2012-10-31 6:35 PM
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Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose?
Is English your first language? can you read for comprehension? The professor put your question to rest for all time with that explanation! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | That's one way to see it, Dave, but I'm taking it down much further, to the considerations behind our choices, how we all have different expectations of quality and value, and how those expectations are satisfied through our purchasing decisions. My point is that inexpensive guitars produced overseas are not seen as inferior to a large segment of the guitar consuming public who place significant value on cost and convenience. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | Professor... I take exception to your signature line! |
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Location: Miami | DaveKell - 2012-10-31 6:41 PM
Is it a fair comparison: our attitude to the garage light fittings we buy with our attitude to a guitar we choose?
Is English your first language? can you read for comprehension? The professor put your question to rest for all time with that explanation!
The professor suggested that a sizeable majority of guitar buyers used "inexpensive and convenient" as their main reason for buying guitars. I suggested that when we buy fun products like guitars, we will often spend more on luxury items. That's all.
"Is English your first language?" "Can you read for comprehension?" Your reply is mean-spirited and ignorant. Why on earth did you feel you had to hurl that insult at me? Make you feel good? Pathetic ... |
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Location: Denver, CO | boltonb - 2012-10-31 5:44 PM
My point is that inexpensive guitars produced overseas are not seen as inferior to a large segment of the guitar consuming public who place significant value on cost and convenience.
Ok professor, I see your point, however, I believe a majority of the guitar-buying public truly WANT to purchase a superior product. That is the exact reason why overseas Ovations enjoy an elevated position within what i would consider the "economy" market. Cheap Ovations are, quality-wise, at the top of their price range.
I think the point of the thread was more related toward "Are you partial to American guitars because you are a ferrinner-bashin' hick whut hates ever'body thet don't look like yew, or is there a possibility the American guitars are actually superior instruments?"
(forgive the unfortunate blending of incompatible dialects)
I feel the more likely scenario is that the majority of the guitar-buying public has no idea what constitutes a really high quality instrument. Most of us just take a peak inside that "special" room, just to gaze upon the eye candy. I would hazard a guess that a vast, vast majority of guitarists will never even handle a Martin or a Guild or, God forbid, a Yairi. To many, that koa-topped Celebrity is the prize! The question to be answered is, "Why are the American-made guitars superior? Materials? Fit and finish? Attention to detail? Or, as Mr.O implied, is it simply a mystique that we have become enamoured of?" |
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Location: Denver, CO | arthurseery - 2012-10-28 3:18 PM
I have an Awesome sounding Epiphone AJ220S (Advanced Jumbo Slope-shouldered Solid-Top) Woodbox...
These things can be had for $200 New. I got mine for $160 with a case and a tuna.
It sounds Great! For what it is... I'm sure that a Martin or a Gibson would blow-it-away.
But it is really nice for $160. (I put soundboard button-piezo transducers in it)
Hey, OMA, what kind of pups did you put in that Epi? Not to infringe on the thread, just PM me.
Thanks! |
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Location: Miami | Grinna - 2012-10-31 6:02 PM
The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl. The bowl's shape projects the sound, the bowl's materials are consistent and engineered, so the variation in vibration and sound in Ovation guitars is reduced because of the bowl.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong here) the bowls on all Ovation guitars regardless of where they are built are all USA made and are all the same (except of course for the different variations in bowl depth, etc). So where does the variation come from then? The quality of the materials for the soundboard and neck would be the prime suspects, surely.
Given the use of the bowl, Ovation should be able to produce a better quality instrument for a given price than any manufacturer who needs to construct the body of the guitar from timber and form it into specific shapes. All of that takes time and even at cheap labour rates, the money spent on labour can't then be spent on higher quality materials and hardware. So, in theory at least, Ovations (regardless of where they are constructed) should all be better value for money than other guitars constructed at the same price point.
This post makes a lot of sense. |
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It would.
It's all wrong, of course. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Grinna - 2012-10-31 4:02 PM
The key feature of the Ovation guitar though is the lyrachord bowl.
So... The difference between a USA Ovation and a Korean ovation is only the Wood, the Neck Joint, the Neck Design, the Bracing (design and execution), and the Care or Lack of Care during construction.
BTW-- Has anyone actually handled one of those Vintage Lyrachord ovations? They are made in Korea.
Do they say "Bowl made by Ovation USA" inside of them?
On the videos I have seen of the flexibility of the bowl... I have a really "vintage" 1121 and the bowl don't bend! Was that bowl made in Korea? or China? When I contacted the people in Ashtabula back in January to ask if they were still making the bowls, they told me that when they considered outsourcing the bowl the Asians way back when, they just couldn't get it right.
(link to the thread with the email in it)
"As I understand, at one time, the Asians did try to produce their own bowl, but failed the acoustics and strength testing require by Ovation USA.. Lyrachord, is a very special material for Ovation Only."
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Location: Massachusetts | When Ovation started having an off shore product I sat back and wondered of the people here would get into a banter like the Fender telecaster crowd is when someone mentions (usually a troll) whether the MIM teles are as good as the USA tele. And here we are!!! Am I nationlstic ? You bet I am!! I've owned USA guitars since 1960, I own a Harley, a Corvette, a vintage Ford Fairlane, my main transportation is a Ford F350 diesel and my wife drives a Jeep. I have purchased Korean and other off shore guitars and when I first got them and played them I thought they were great, but after getting to know them I found various components and workmanship that didn't hold up to the level of quality of my USA models.
This doesn't mean that you have to buy USA products, but don't expect as good a product from a company that went off shore to make a bigger profit.
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Location: Miami | javaman - 2012-10-31 11:06 PM
When Ovation started having an off shore product I sat back and wondered of the people here would get into a banter like the Fender telecaster crowd is when someone mentions (usually a troll) whether the MIM teles are as good as the USA tele.
Really? Perhaps at least some of them were asking because they were considering buying an MIM tele and wanted some thoughts from people with more experience. That's certainly my case. There's a cedar-topped 1778 Elite that Ovation has brought out that looks and seems great by the specs. I've no way of trying this guitar in a store, however, so if I do buy it, there will be some risk. For this reason, I was interested to hear what the people who are really involved with Ovations had to say.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | Timolin - 2012-10-31 11:22 PM
I was interested to hear what the people who are really involved with Ovations had to say.
Really? I would submit from rereading this thread you had your entire spectrum of answers satisfactorily presented to you on page 1 of this thread. My "reading for comprehension" remark I lifted from the smartest guy on another forum who uses it in situations like this where someone keeps pursuing the same thing over and over when their question has been answered. I apologize if it offended you. It was an honest question. and if you think I insulted you, did you miss this one?
"For someone as erudite as you, I'm surprised you used the word "work" when you really meant to say "bullshit".
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Location: Miami | Timolin - 2012-10-31 1:53 PM
It'd be interesting to do a blindfold test between a US Ovation and an overseas one.
I'm in your town and I offered you that chance. You said you were too busy. The offer still stands if you mean what you say. |
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Location: Massachusetts | Timolin, it sounds like Jukebox Joe has given you the offer to resolve the question in your mind. Go see him and then get back to us with your opinion.
When I was in Ft. Myers Guitar Center a couple of weeks ago there were three new Ovations in the acoustic room and a couple of shallow body USA Legends just outside the room. I know it's a couple hours drive, but if your in the area you might as well check it out.
This is half the fun of buying an axe, so when you walk out the door with your newly acquired guitar you're satisfied that you made the right choice. Good luck with whatever you decide on.
Edited by javaman 2012-11-01 7:11 AM
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | dwg preacher - 2012-10-31 7:21 PM I believe a majority of the guitar-buying public truly WANT to purchase a superior product. Exactly. I am only suggesting that "superior" means different things to different people. A Korean Ovation guitar represents superior value to many people. |
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What's the verdict on non-US made Ovations?
