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Location: Phoenix AZ | Now available on ebay.
2005 Collector |
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Location: closely held secret | Nice ad, Dave. Very tempting.
Aren't you leaving one little detail out, tho? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I don't know. What's missing? |
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Location: closely held secret | Didn't you say this was an FRG? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Maybe this is samantics, but yes it "was" an FRG when I bought it new. But it's not an FRG now at the time of re-sale because to call it an FRG would imply that it is new and has 5-year warranty. It's "used" and has no warranty. It's a fine line. hey, maybe I'm not even the original owner and maybe it was returned to the factory for a neck reset and new pre-amp (it was not), but who knows. It's all encompused in the word "USED".
But I understand what you're saying and that opens a very good question. Believe me I'm not trying to mislead any buyers. But is a seller obligated to inform potential buyers of the terms and conditions under which the seller originally obtained the instrument? In a broad context, I say no. Maybe I bought it as new, NOS, 2nd, FRG, whatever. The fact is that at the time of re-sale it can have only one status, and that is "used". The seller is of course obligated to accurately describe the condition of the instrument.
Here's a real analogy. A few years ago I bought a "new" car. I got a big discount on it because it was a demonstrator and had 1100 miles on it. The car registered as "new" and for warranty purposes I was the original owner. Three years later I sold the car. Should I have told the buyer that it was demo at the time I obtained it?
Here's another angle - A number of members bought Adamas U681 guitars that had to go back to the factory to fix cosmetic flaws. If one of these members re-sells his guitar on ebay should he state that it's an FRG, which technically it is?
I don't think there is a black/white answer here . Certainly dealers who sell new Ovations on ebay must state if they are FRG's because that has implications on warranty. But as a seller of a used guitar, I think I have adiquately described the instrument, offered a fair price, and am not overtly trying to mislead anyone about the guitar.
Comments? |
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Location: closely held secret | Dave, I was not and would never imply that you would try to mislead a buyer. I haven't been around here all that long, but certainly long enought to know you have a pretty high level of integrity concerning your guitars, and I respect you for that.
I completely agree with you concerning the status of the guitar as 'used' and I'm not trying to tell you how to advertise it. I was simply thinking how I, and probably you, would feel upon opening the box and seeing that long black sticker above the Ovation label.
I would inspect the instrument and find no flaws. It would play beautifully, be a prized addition to my wall and a joy to play as long as I owned it.
But I would probably be a little pissed that I didn't know that sticker was there before I clicked the BIN button. That's really all I was getting at.
If I could afford it right now it would probably already be mine. :( |
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| I don't believe it's semantics. I believe if it was listed by the factory as a second or an FRG, then you should say so in the ad. The new buyer shouldn't be shocked to see a sticker, stamp, or find out after it was purchased. If I bought a used guitar, paid a price, and then later realized I paid more than I should have because it was an FRg, I would feel that the seller was dishonest and that I was cheated. If I knew a model was listed as an FRG or second by the manufacturer, I would not offer as much for it used or new. In your other scenario... If the guitar, to your knowledge, had gone through MAJOR structural reconstruction, then yes that should be listed when you resale. I feel strongly that the FRG should be listed. StandingO, I'm not saying your intention is to cheat anyone, but if I were the buyer I would feel cheated. Opinions? |
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Location: SoCal | I disagree with E.P. Whether a guitar was sold new or as a FRG, really only makes a difference to the original buyer and even then, only in the warranty. The warranty is gone once the guitar leaves the original buyer's hands.
If the guitar, as E.P. pointed out, had gone thru MAJOR structural reconstruction, then yes, it should be pointed out. But guitars with MAJOR structural problems aren't rebuilt and sold as FRG's. Almost all FRG's had very minor, correctable flaws. And I would challenge anybody to determine the reason FRG's are labeled as such.
I think it would be silly to judge a guitar as being a FRG, after it's already in an owner's hands. I'd be much more concerned about how the owner treated the guitar.
And Witko could never cheat anybody. He's as honest as the day is long (asked him about his cross dressing). |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Englishplayer, I disagree with you. But that's fine. Btw, the guitar does not have an FRG sticker in it. But to avoid ANY possibility of ever being accused of anything less than 100% honest you will notice that I have modified the ebay listing. I clearly state 1) that I bought it as an FRG, 2) the date I bought it, 3) where I bought it, and 4) how much I paid for it. You can't get much more honest than that.
Speaking of honest, Moody is correct. You know that Glen Campbell & Bobbi Gentry reunion act? Well, that's really me and Paul. Don't I look good in fishnets?
Dave |
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| StandingO, I never doubted that you are an honest, upfront guy. I was just stating how I would feel as a buyer. I am always interested in consumer types of subjects. I am still trying to figure out exactly what is or isn't a USED guitar.
And by the way, when I was in elementary school I thought Bobby Gentry was hot. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Hey, I need to raise the reserve on this auction significantly. It was brought to my attention that this is a VERY rare and special guitar. It is serial number 080. That's double-pallindrone. Turn it over left to right and it still says 080. Turn it over top to bottom and it still says 080. In many cultures this signifies very special and magical powers. There is only ONE double-pallindrone 2005 Collector and THIS is IT. Letting the bidding wars begin ... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I think there isn't such a thing as a "StandingOvation" or a "Dave Witko"! Obviously no married man in America could have that many nice ovations and legs that look good in fishnet too. I suspect it to be one of Cliff's or Al's alter egos.
What was Al Gore thinking when he invented the Internet anyway? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Huh? Gibson? |
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Location: Midland, MI | I've heard of them before, but I thought you had to buy direct from their retail arm, MusiciansFiend/Guitarget.
;) |
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Hey StandingO- How about 010 ? Maybe 111... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Alaskan Fly Guy:
Hey StandingO- How about 010 ? Maybe 111... Nope, because of the type face those do not flip correctly. The "1" looks like a backwards or upside down "1". Sometimes these are called faux-pallindrones. You can choose certain typefaces that will display them as true pallindrones, but the one Ovation uses on their serial numbers will not do it. 080 remains the special one with mystical powers. Dave |
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Location: NJ | Dave;
Since I'm not overly familiar with the typeface that Ovation is currently using for their serial numbers, I have a couple of questions:
Are the upper & lower "loops" (of the "8") equal in size (or is the top one a little smaller)?
Are the left and right sides of both "loops" of consistent "thickness"?
- A lot of Romanesque typefaces are based on hand-drawn letter. The left-hand side of the upper loop would be the start of the "downstroke" (and would thereby be "thicker"). This would cross over to the right-hand side of the lower loop. At the bottom it becomes the "upstroke" (and would then be "thinner") and does a reverse "S" turn back to the top.
Again, this would pertain to fonts which come from a "Roman" derivation . . . some of the more "Moderne" styles may (or may not) utilize characters with a consistent "stroke" throughout (and also may/may not use a smaller upper loop on the "8") making the character quite different when it's inverted.
I'm not trying to bust your balls here (yeah. . . SURE I'm not! ;-) but as a card-carrying "LetterHead", I just need to ensure that your typographical assertion is indeed correct.
Might you possibly provide a photograph (in both "positions")???
That would be lovely.
btw:
The "V" in "OVATION" on those lovely metallic-foil labels we all know and love . . . is "backwards". ;) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Cliff, The upper loop is slightly smaller, which technically makes this a semi-faux-pallindrone. The wall thickness is indeed symmetrical. The double loop of the "8" also signifies some mystic powers having to do with its similarity to the symbol for infinity or the moebes strip. I will definately send you photographs in two different "positions". You will like them. If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to just bite me ... I mean e-mail me.
dave |
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Location: NJ | Fu-(uh, I mean) THANK You, David.
The photographs won't be necessary.
I trust you implicitly. |
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Location: Tampa, FL | You just have to love this place. Now we have cliff discussing the artistic fine points of font design (I did not notice the small caps v on the foil label. No wonder you have almost as many posts as paul). And then there's Dave talking about half-fake-pallindromes. How is something half-fake? Is that related to nearly real, or a true rumor. And I have no idea what kind of stripping Dave is into, nor do I want even a single photograph (it is, after all, lunch) but I've done a little studying of the möbius strip. It has many interesting characteristics. Make one sometime, use the widest strip of paper you can. Then draw a line lengthwise down the middle. You will find that a single line will cover both sides. Now cut along the line and see the result. Then make the same cut again on the resulting figure. The results are surprising the first time you see them. I'll go find my meds now. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Too wacky for me. It's amazing those guys have time to play guitars. |
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Location: NJ | ". . the artistic fine points of font design . ."
It's what I do. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Yeah, those guys! |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Chatman,
Just don't tell them where we hid the porthole!
I had forgotten the circumvated Mobius strip thing. Had to try it. Works great on Govm't Red Tape! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by MWoody:
I had forgotten the circumvated Mobius strip thing. And the related "Klein Bottle". It exists, but can't be visualized in 2D or 3D space. Now, time to go play my guitar. Dave |
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For Sale: 2005 Collectors Guitar Contour Bowl - MINTl
