| ||
| The Ovation Fan Club | ||
| ||
| Random quote: "Jazz... isn't that just a series of mistakes disguised as musical composition?” - David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap |
 Guitar forum that welcomes political comments
| View previous thread :: View next thread | |
| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2006 | Message format | |
Brian T |
| ||
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: SE Michigan | I'd like to think of this place kind of like a friendly corner bar where you can stop in after work and shoot the breeze a bit. I personally see nothing wrong with anything anybody wants to comment on so long as it doesn’t become overly intense or dominating. And the thread indexes show quite a wide variety of topics. But what fun is the corner bar if the bartender keeps telling you to change the subject and move on? And it’s been my observation that it primarily seems to be the moderators who are concerned about the topics; I think most members are pretty relaxed about it. I still think that the moderators have been a little too quick to pull the trigger on some subjects while ignoring others. But I do not want to see the board become a whacked-out rant forum either. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. | ||
| |||
| Paul Templeman |
| ||
Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Originally posted by edensharvest: I would hope so. It doesn't matter whether you play guitar in a church, a bar, a club or a theatre, there will always be technicalites involving sound systems, preamps, pickups, mics, monitors, feedback, or whatever which are common to all, and personaly I have no problem discussing any topics of that nature you may encounter in a worship situation. However as a devout athiest I would not welcome overtly non-secular content.for many of us (apparently particularly here in the NW) our passion for our religion mirrors, complements, and is intricately tied to our passion for music. Is it going to be the determination of this board that we to whom it applies must separate completely these two things, and maintain a completely "dry" board, with nothing of a religious nature even being mentioned? | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Originally posted by edensharvest: correct none of this causes a problem. ??? Every once in a while, someone will post regarding looking for information on a particular religious song, or needing a drummer for their praise band, or looking for information on properly setting sound systems for worship teams, or simply mention something religion-related in their posting. As far as I know, nothing of that sort has been regulated on this forum, as no one is "pushing" an agenda of any sort. * ) :D There was only one time when I had to intervene, that was when some members wanted to use the forum as a place to target members they thought may benefit from their beliefs. I had to step in at that point. Some comments are interesting here. I like to live by this one. "You reap what you sow" Brian Not to beat a dead Llama here, but unless you can give me specific instances where I have come in and stopped a thread or where you feel I have not stopped a thread, I cannot give you any rationale. I try not to be heavy handed and it was MILES that locked down the thread not me. It is still there, it is not gone, EVERYONE can read it. you just can no longer post to it. I really said all that needs to be said long ago in this process. "Do the music" | ||
| |||
| Tony Calman |
| ||
Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Problem is, you can never win...even if you talk about "music ministry", so many variations...heck, I'm still trying to adapt Gregorian Chants to a guitar; closest I have come to it is very early John Michael Talbot (I know, not Gregorian Chants). In the early 80's, when this Roman Catholic played in an Episcopal Church group, we played mainly material from St. Louis Jesuits. So, talk about your instruments and your equipment...it is music, not beliefs. As an aside to those that create music in a service...it is a special gift. My only caution is when I have seen it as a opportunity to perform v. a complement to the service. | ||
| |||
| GregoryS. |
| ||
| Joined: April 2005 Posts: 331 Location: San Angelo, Texas | VERY true, Tony...and a fine line that those of us called to lead worship, or to use our talent as part of a group. I've seen it, and even been guilty of it...forgeting that it's the MUSIC, not the MUSCIAN that the people desire....which is how this whole thing got started...CSNY forgeting that it's the MUSIC :) | ||
| |||
| Mark in Boise |
| ||
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12761 Location: Boise, Idaho | Sounds like someone was naughty while I was gone. I missed the board the past week. Good to see it hasn't changed. | ||
| |||
| Omaha |
| ||
Joined: November 2005 Posts: 1126 Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Tony Calman: I cut my teeth on that stuff. I went to a Jesuit high school, graduated in 1981. There was a certain category of priests we called the "earthen vessels" crowd. In the early 80's, when this Roman Catholic played in an Episcopal Church group, we played mainly material from St. Louis Jesuits. Now that I've gotten older, I think I've turned into one of them, except for the priest part I suppose. We still play StLJ stuff at mass every week. Back to the topic at hand, I still think this group has a unique character that I don't see anywhere else. I applaud the moderators for their efforts. Its a big job (I moderate a Yahoo group), and its hard to appreciate the time it takes. Plus, it is utterly thankless. No matter where you draw the line, someone is on the wrong side of it. | ||
| |||
| Tupperware |
| ||
Joined: January 2005 Posts: 4903 Location: Phoenix AZ | I don't think anything on this board should change. I agree with Brian 100%, the corner bar will not be a fun place if the bartender has to limit what you can talk about. Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope. When someone crosses the line, the moderators should slap him down. If you don't like what you read here, then go somewhere else. 99.9% of the time we are civil to each other and tolerant of other peoples views. Disagreements are healthy, unless it gets personal. Llamas, coconut bras, and occasional use of the words shit and fuck is no big deal. If it plays on HBO it should play here. Just imagine how much fun this board would be if every thread was either 1) what strings should I use, or 2) how much is my guitar worth ??? Expressing ones views on real life topics is healthy and fun. Just don't hurt others in the process. If someone goes too far, then the moderators can just shut it down. What's the big deal? That's their job. And no, they aren't going to be necessarily "fair" in everyones eyes. Maybe they're quick to shut down Bush suporters and too tolerant of Llama talk. Big deal. Maybe they allow religous messeges in signature lines but not political messeges. So what. IT'S A FREE OF CHARGE, ONLINE FORUM! for christs sake. We members have no right to expect anything. The fact that this forum even exists should be considered an absolute blessing. Use it, enjoy it, don't hurt others, don't expect anything in return, and if you don't like what you read here or if you don't like how the moderators run it, than just go someplace else. Dave | ||
| |||
| MWoody |
| ||
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 13997 Location: Upper Left USA | Can you make the page look more like an Excel Spreadsheet so my Boss... | ||
| |||
| edensharvest |
| ||
Joined: March 2006 Posts: 1634 Location: Chehalis, Washington | Originally posted by Paul Templeman: Obviously, things that are technical are a non-issue. And, it would not be appropriate, nor would I overtly do so, to promote ANY agenda, religious or otherwise, on an open board not related to the topic at hand. This is, after all, the Ovation fan forum. Obviously, Paul, I am a Christian, you are an athiest, and specific dissertations on beliefs or disbeliefs would not be appropriate here. Originally posted by edensharvest: I would hope so. It doesn't matter whether you play guitar in a church, a bar, a club or a theatre, there will always be technicalites involving sound systems, preamps, pickups, mics, monitors, feedback, or whatever which are common to all, and personaly I have no problem discussing any topics of that nature you may encounter in a worship situation. However as a devout athiest I would not welcome overtly non-secular content. for many of us (apparently particularly here in the NW) our passion for our religion mirrors, complements, and is intricately tied to our passion for music. Is it going to be the determination of this board that we to whom it applies must separate completely these two things, and maintain a completely "dry" board, with nothing of a religious nature even being mentioned? If you wanted to email me in private by the way, I always love a good theological debate! :D My concern was more than anything else, how much on "tip-toes" do we need to be? For example, a thread a couple months ago was on a topic along the lines of "WHICH ARTIST DO YOU SOUND/LOOK LIKE?". Obviously, this will pull from people's own styles, opinions, etc, and everyone has a different answer. Mine, honestly, was a contemporary Christian/country artist, which by naming him brings up something of a religious nature. I didn't elaborate on it, I didn't begin a long declaration of the greatness of this performer and his message, it was simply a reference. It would be the same if someone asked for favorite songs - as someone who performs primarily in a church setting, my favorite performing songs are mostly religious in nature. When I said "dry" board, my question is should I (and those in similar situations) not respond at all, for fear that we are introducing a "religious idea?" Obviously, it sounds a bit silly and paranoid; however, I've found it's better, particularly with a topic like this open, to know for sure where the rule stands. It would be like if I took offense to someone liking Green Day because I don't believe in their political stance - it doesn't have anything to do with me if someone says that they like that particular band's music, or asks someone if they have a chord sheet. Those type of things should be irrelevant here. On another mostly unrelated note, I played my 1718 alongside a guy with a Taylor 414ce today at church, and the Elite totally blew his Taylor out of the water. Go O! (Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, what about posts related to football? :eek: ) | ||
| |||
| rick endres |
| ||
Joined: August 2005 Posts: 616 Location: cincinnati, ohio | Original post by Paul Templeman: For what it's worth, Wildwood made a post about a concert he attended at which he'd had a great time, making no comments whatsover about anything other than THE MUSIC. 2 or maybe 3 people who WERE NOT THERE b!*@#ed (edited for content) about alleged political content, based on hearsay. I'm sure CSNY were far from apolitical, but if you weren't there to experience it for yourself, how would you know, and why would you bother making an unqualified comment? I can see elements of both sides of this issue-- and I can see where Al and Miles should be granted sainthood for dealing with the headaches of keeping this board going. As Paul stated above, the CSNY post WAS originally a post about music. Wildwood really enjoyed the concert. Notice HE didn't mention anything about p@!*tical (edited for content) issues. This means either a), it didn't bother him, or b) the p@!*tical content was minimal at best. What constitutes a "rant" depends on which side of the fence you're on. To some, it's a 45 minute nonstop diatribe; to others, an offhanded comment here and there is enough to send them through the roof. I've seen CSN and CSNY. They aren't subtle about expressing their p@!*itical opinions; however, neither do they go on and on about them, either. A line or two at the intro of a song. I've never found it particularly distracting. Once you pay your money, you get the whole package-- and if it's not your cup of tea, you can always leave. I'm not going to debate whether it's right or wrong of them to do that, but for those of you who haven't seen them live, I say caveat emptor:buyer beware. I would hate to see this board become a white bread, homogenized milk, watered-down forum. It's nice to stir things up once in a while to keep it interesting, but there is a right way to do it. Al and Miles's #1 rule is "be kind to one another." We can agree to disagree and not descend to name-calling. A wise man once said, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." There is a large, vocal (and disturbing) contingent of people in this country who think that quote should read, "I don't agree with what you have to say, and I'm going to kill you." I don't think we have anyone like that here-- I hope. Case in point: the Dixie Chicks had the audacity to make some rude comments about George B@$h (edited for content), the head of state of a hypothetical Western superpower. Now, up until very recently, if you criticized George B@$h at ALL, the prevailing attitude was that you should be deported. My country right or wrong. America--love it or leave it. Lately as his approval rating has gone into free fall, you've been able to get away with a little more. The Dixie Chicks received DEATH THREATS for their statements. Here in town, for example, somebody called in to a local talk show and said, "I'd like to tie them g*&d@%$ed (edited for content)Dixie Chicks to the bumper of mah pickup truck and drag 'em to death!" His sentiments were echoed by a number of callers. Now you tell me which is worse: insulting Mr. B@$h, or making a death threat? I think Mr. B@$h is a big boy; he wouldn't have sought the job if he didn't have a thick skin. But to threaten to KILL somebody because you don't like what they say? Come on! Again, nobody here has evinced that type of extreme behavior, but some folks DO get extremely riled up over relatively trivial issues. Again, if we're "kinder and gentler," we can maybe dicuss things that are a little controversial without going over the top. Oh-- and those of you who commented that "they should go back to their crack pipes (I'm assuming a reference to David Crosby?)" -- the Croz has kept his nose clean (literally) since he got out of jail in the late '80's, and is subject to random drug tests. Give the guy a break; he's on his second liver, already! | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Originally posted by edensharvest: ok from what you described above there is no problem. BUT let's say for example, that you posted I like christian musician X because of the message of his songs and the manner in which he presents his ideas. harmless and fine not a problem BUT if the next person posts that he is against Christian music and then the thread degenerates into a "my religion is better than yours" thread. I would step in. [ My concern was more than anything else, how much on "tip-toes" do we need to be? For example, a thread a couple months ago was on a topic along the lines of "WHICH ARTIST DO YOU SOUND/LOOK LIKE?". Obviously, this will pull from people's own styles, opinions, etc, and everyone has a different answer. Mine, honestly, was a contemporary Christian/country artist, which by naming him brings up something of a religious nature. I didn't elaborate on it, I didn't begin a long declaration of the greatness of this performer and his message, it was simply a reference. It would be the same if someone asked for favorite songs - as someone who performs primarily in a church setting, my favorite performing songs are mostly religious in nature. When I said "dry" board, my question is should I (and those in similar situations) not respond at all, for fear that we are introducing a "religious idea?" (Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, what about posts related to football? :eek: ) [/QB] This is all subjective and 99 percent of the time there is no problem. As for football, post on that all you want I know NOTHING about it and you can probably pull all kinds of stuff over on me. As for tuppy, I have not got into regulating signature lines but that is a good point. If someone posted an offensive one and members suggested I have it removed, I would have to look into it. The best rule is to keep your politics and religion to yourself and you will not offend anyone. I just wanted to comment that today was a beautiful day in NJ temperature about 73, low himidity and not a cloud in the sky. It was great to get outside and enjoy the day and then take my wife out to dinner. Unfortunately, I had to keep checking in on the board to make sure everyone plays nice. Time to get some sleep. | ||
| |||
| Omaha |
| ||
Joined: November 2005 Posts: 1126 Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by rick endres: At the risk of sending this thread completely over the edge, the quote above is an example of precisely the sort of thing I worry about. There is a large, vocal (and disturbing) contingent of people in this country who think that quote should read, "I don't agree with what you have to say, and I'm going to kill you." Comments such as that are sure to bring a response. Once some one makes a highly political statement like that, he should expect a reply, and so on and so on. No one will be pursuaded. But a bunch of people will be annoyed. Better to not get it started in the first place. | ||
| |||
| Mr. Ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7247 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I frankly don't understand... a lot of this thread, so I'm just posting to say that. NOTHING has changed or will change is MY point. I closed ONE thread, BEFORE it went to a place it shouldn't. If you don't understand, that's fine. It's not your job or place to worry about that stuff. It's the stuff that Al and I are responsible for worrying about. As I said, nothing has changed, nothing is going to. Relax and enjoy, just like you have been for the past nearly 4 years. | ||
| |||
| Joyful Noise |
| ||
Joined: March 2004 Posts: 629 Location: Houston, Texas | Originally posted by alpep: I'm glad you had a nice day and dinner Al, you deserve it after a tough summer. I just wanted to comment that today was a beautiful day in NJ temperature about 73, low himidity and not a cloud in the sky. It was great to get outside and enjoy the day and then take my wife out to dinner. Unfortunately, I had to keep checking in on the board to make sure everyone plays nice. Let's all go back to enjoying this board for what it is and quit complaining about what it isn't. | ||
| |||
| philmax |
| ||
Joined: June 2006 Posts: 659 Location: Hiram, Georgia | Amen! | ||
| |||
| mtnbikerfred |
| ||
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 1421 Location: Orange County, California | Originally posted by Brian T: Not one thread over there about Ovation or Adamas guitars, llamas, or men in grass skirts wearing coconut brasiers.... Who'd wanna go someplace where all they talk about is "regular" guitars and politics?! :p :D :p :DI thought I'd pass along the URL of a guitar forum that actually allows people to talk and express their thoughts, and not just thoughts pertaining to bathroom humor: | ||
| |||
| John B |
| ||
Joined: January 2004 Posts: 1225 Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | The bottom line is that we are here because of the one thing that we ALL agree on. We love Ovations. The rest of it really doesn't matter. Maybe, on a day like today, we should be thankful to be here and remember what's really important. | ||
| |||
| Mark1960 |
| ||
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 171 Location: Indiana | The bottom line is that we are here because of the one thing that we ALL agree on. We love Ovations. The rest of it really doesn't matter. Maybe, on a day like today, we should be thankful to be here and remember what's really important. Well said. I've been out for a while. Things sometimes pull me away for a bit but I keep coming back because I like it here. I sympathize with both sides of this issue and had to come to terms with my own outspoken nature a while back on this board. I have strong mixed feelings about the whole thing. The peacekeeper that has always been in me likes harmony among his friends and hates bad vibes....but the socially conscious activist in me knows our world, our nation and everything we have come to enjoy ...is in serious trouble and most don't want to discuss it because it is a downer. But it won't go away. Many feel a need to talk about the important things and I know of none more important than the immediate danger we are in. There are certainly many other places to do this but would that discussion be among those you have grown close too...among your friends? I find it sad that if Josh White were here today playing anti-war or anti-imperialist songs on his Ovation, that he may not be welcome to discuss his motivation here. I find it sad that if a war vet comes home and finds refuge in his new Ovation ...then perhaps finds this site, that he may not be able to discuss the pain he is carrying that his music is helping him deal with. But it also sucks that things often can't be discussed without tempers flaring. In our forefathers day, they did not have the net and the place to gather and discuss the issues of the day was often the town pub. It was the place to enjoy live music (the best kind), spirits, hang with friends and talk about everything. Brian's mention of the local bar reminded me of that. I have no doubt that if our forefathers were here today what would be dominating those discussions. peace... | ||
| |||
| Brian T |
| ||
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: SE Michigan | “the socially conscious activist in me knows our world, our nation and everything we have come to enjoy is in serious trouble and most don't want to discuss it because it is a downer. But it won't go away.” Can I get an amen and a Hallelujah! Finally some one seems to get my point! “There are certainly many other places to do this but would that discussion be among those you have grown close too...among your friends?” Having met a lot of members on this board, it’s a lot more meaningful to have a discussion here than on some Yahoo Rant Room. And I am not proposing turning this into a Rant Room either. But as Mark stated, it’s a shame that when music, guitars, and political/social issues happen to cross paths, we have to shun the topic. | ||
| |||
| TWA |
| ||
Joined: February 2005 Posts: 349 Location: Snellville, GA | Okay, usually I can kill a thread, here goes... I don't think you can have a civil discussion of politics and religion in today's climate on a message board without it degenerating into something worse. The country is so far divided on both that more than a few would be offended. You could get away with it at work or at a coffee shop or wherever because it's with relatively few people, but with 5,000 or so on an internet message board...well, you could see where it could get real ugly real quick. Maybe I'm wrong...won't be the first time. | ||
| |||
| Tony Calman |
| ||
Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Our country has had conflict, division, and strife throughout its relative young history. The divisions often create and reinforce strength. Yes, civility is at a low, yet remember the attack on Senator Sumner in 1856. Our media has not helped...remember when Paul Begala and Lt. Col North co-chaired "Equal Time" on MSNBC? Begala has worked extensively with James Carville, to include co-authoring several books with him. Heated, divisive "discussions". Yet, friends after the cameras were off. Rush Limbaugh was a guest at the Carville/Matalin wedding. My inside information is that there were "discussions" but also respect as they understood there was a basis behind their beliefs. Yet, a dog fight for the cameras. They gained respect from discussions, their attacks were a performance for the audience. My definition of discussion is an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with a specific topic; an exchange of views; a conversation without bias or fear; intended purpose is to explain, analyze, and compare. Unfortunately, blogs and forums are not the means to come to an understanding or to "educate" someone on the truth. It is a single dimension. Short statements about beliefs and actions are deemed to be an attack. Personally, I am a social moderate and a conservative in defense and fiscal. By most, in a open discussion, I am respected for my views. They may not agree with me but they do respect how and why I have developed my position(s). I do not respect or appreciate the use of this forum or any other where individuals interject short statements that have no impact other than to create dissension or conflict. Those individuals that feel a need to do this are part of the problem. I am convinced that this is not a protection under the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights. I am a student of political science as many of my forebearers were historically significant in the success and plight of mankind, seven signers of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson is a 1st cousin, etc. Heck, some of my family is or were (deceased) very liberal (my mom worked for Sen. Wayne Morris, went to Democratic Conventions, etc.; also have a few tree-huggers and pacifists; one was subpoenaed and testified (later blacklisted) before the House Un-American Activities Committee. Disagreement but respect for the individual. Stand on a street corner, write an editorial, discuss it in private meetings or small groups. Do it in a civil manner with facts. You have the freedom of expression in the appropriate time and place. Again, civility. | ||
| |||
| mhaanpaa |
| ||
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 120 Location: Gardnerville, NV | Actually TWA you've been proven right on almost every thread that has ventured into politics or religion in the couple of years I've been reading this board. | ||
| |||
| Stephen P |
| ||
Joined: June 2005 Posts: 274 Location: Maryland, USA | Originally posted by MWoody: check out Ghostzilla.com Can you make the page look more like an Excel Spreadsheet so my Boss... You may find it interesting ;) | ||
| |||
| Mark in Boise |
| ||
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12761 Location: Boise, Idaho | 5 years ago on another board, probably Porsches or BMWs, I suggested that we wait until we had better information on who the hijackers were before we called for nukes to be dropped on Baghdad, as some other poster suggested. One response was that I was as bad as Osama! I've been called a lot of things, but that was one of the worst. I just don't like what happens to people when they get into political discussions, especially when the passions are inflamed, like on September 11. I agree with Mark that there is a time and place for protest, but I don't think this is it. | ||
| |||
| Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5 Now viewing page 4 [25 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
| This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way. | |
| (Delete all cookies set by this site) | |