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Location: Phoenix AZ | Trust me, it looks exactly the same as all the others. They did a very good job with the consistency of the color and gold sparkle among all of them that I have seen. Sure there is some small variation, but you'd never notice. I'll take photos soon. I'm waiting for another guitar (not OFC guitar) to arrive first. Dave |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Originally posted by Tupperware:
......I'm waiting for another guitar (not OFC guitar) to arrive first. Dave Dave,Let us know if the Martin arrives with a crooked tuner!....... |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Dave, when you re-aligned the tuner, were the original holes completely covered by the tuner?
For such a relatively minor flaw, I probably would have done the repairs myself as well. That doesn't affect the rest of your warranty, does it?
Maybe "Are tuning pegs straight?" isn't on the QC list? |
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Location: SoCal | Tup, I agree with much of what you said, and overall I think you handled it well.
Thank god this didn't happen to that prick, StandingOvation! He would have made a stink that would still be going on...... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Maybe I shouldn't remind people about "The Good Ol' Days" but I was looking in the Vault for info on Truss Rod Adjustment and such...
I wanna Congratulate everyone on the decorum that y'all display lately!
The site was border-line PG13 or worse back then.
[Congratulate myself too... I definitely don't talk the way I type :p ] |
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Location: SoCal | F*@k you Artie!
Oh wait, we're not saying stuff like that anymore....
Actually, you're right. For a topic that we're all very passionate about, this has been a civil thread. Like I said, w/o standingovation around, things are much calmer around here..... |
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Location: Omaha, NE | That is quite a photo.
I am genuinely interested in understanding what "DM" was thinking...Did he just not notice the crooked tuner? Did he notice it but not consider it a defect? Did he notice it, realize it was a problem, but conclude it wasn't worth bothering with? After all, their standard is "as if it were our own"...Maybe "DM" doesn't care about crooked tuners?
I've told this story here before, but I bought an Adamas back in 2000 that had a similar issue...In my case the end of one of the epaulets had broken off...we are talking about a piece about the size of a the nail on your little finger. It was re-glued to the top in a fashion that most first graders would be embarrassed to claim as their own: It was at least 3/16" out of alignment. Total joke.
The factory replaced the guitar, of course. But the first one should have never left the factory.
So, in that case, as in the case here, you are left to wonder just how many peoples' hands the guitar, with its obvious defect, passed through...every one of which for whatever reason just sent it on down the line.
It also makes you wonder just what the hell is an FRG. If guitars with clear problems aren't pulled out, fixed, and then sold as FRG's, what are? This situation adds credibility to the notion than an FRG is really just the factory's way of unloading excess inventory without undercutting the primary retail sales channel.
In the case of this crooked tuner, I am also interested in specifically how this could have happened. I would have thought that the factory had a nice little aluminum jig that attached to the head and ensured that the holes were properly aligned. It would take less than a half an hour to fashion a jig like that.
But the situation here suggests that these things are aligned by hand. After I saw Dave's photo, I went and took a really close look at my new Koala. I noticed one of the tuners ever so slightly off of alignment. Not enough that you'd really notice it, but enough that you have to conclude that they are aligning these by hand and by eye, rather than using a jig to ensure repeatable accuracy.
My other guitar is a Taylor. One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. With them, it is all about process. Every function is standardized and automated. They spend a small fortune on custom machinery every year. Opportunities for human error are stripped away. The result is extreme consistency and precision.
Maybe the Ovation guys should take the Taylor factory tour sometime. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | My other guitar is a Taylor. One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. With them, it is all about process. Every function is standardized and automated. They spend a small fortune on custom machinery every year. Opportunities for human error are stripped away. The result is extreme consistency and precision.
Maybe the Ovation guys should take the Taylor factory tour sometime. I own 4. I know that Dave does not like Taylors and out of respect for his bad day, I bit my tounge earlier...
but I could not have said it better myself... :rolleyes:
Blessings... |
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Location: SoCal | I actually prefer a guitar that may not be perfect, but has some soul in it.... |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I have to say I have no idea what that means. Does a crooked tuner give a guitar 'soul'? |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Paul, you are welcome to play mine anytime...my 1998 Custom 615 w/presentation Brazilian rosewood is a fantastic guitar...I wish you could have heard Randy (Lanaki) play it at the OFC Southern Jam...and the 2006 810 Fall limited w/Madagascar rosewood is as well; not to mention the 1998 W-65 12 in all over Claro Walnut...There are lots of guitars w/soul...but it takes a living soul to caress it out...offer still stands, my friend! ;)
Blessings... |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Omaha
One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. Interesting, considering the background and experience/expertise of Ovation's founder. |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | Moody and Mishka have hit the nail on the head, but with different hammers. Every Guitar has it's (the guitars) own soul.
With each different person playing it, that soul differs.
VIVA la difference! |
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Location: SoCal | Mike, I've played a lot of Taylors. I've liked a lot of them but haven't loved any of them enough to buy one. They don't talk to me and cost about twice what I think they are worth.
Maybe this is a good time to post something that I think is worth stating now and again:
I don't ask that you love my guitars the way I do. I hope you love your guitars the way I love mine.
Quite honestly, I'm going to sound pretty well the same regardless of the guitar I pick up. The music is in me, not the guitar. So I play what makes me happy. Debating guitars, to me, once I've stated my opinion, is rather pointless as I'm not out to score points in an argument. So let's not start an argument that has no point...... |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | Moody said: Quite honestly, I'm going to sound pretty well the same regardless of the guitar I pick up. Me too Moody, me too! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by muzza:
when you re-aligned the tuner, were the original holes completely covered by the tuner? That doesn't affect the rest of your warranty, does it? The erroneous holes are completely covered by the tuner body. As far as warranty, I can't imagine that doing what the QC guy should have done in the first place would have any effect on warranty.
Originally posted by MusicMishka:
I know that Dave does not like Taylors ... Mike, it's like Yankees and Red Sox. You can't love one without disliking the other. As far as quality, I've looked over a LOT of Taylors in the stores and not a single one of them has been anything less than flawless. 'Nuf said on that topic. Seriously, if they sounded and played better I'd own one :D (that was uncalled for but sorry, I couldn't resist).
Dave |
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Location: big island | it would seem to me that the two "extra" screw holes under the tuner cover are close enough to weaken the stability of the correct two. personally, i would not be content with that "band-aid" if i had spent even a fourth as much on a guitar. i would have the company make it right.
and dave, couldn't help but notice the link to your ovation gallery is missing from your signature line...
(i won't mention it though) |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Tupperware:
I've looked over a LOT of Taylors in the stores and not a single one of them has been anything less than flawless. That's right.
It makes no difference to me what brand of guitar someone plays, but to deny that Taylor is an industry leader in overall quality, fit and finish and refinement is to deny the obvious.
Frankly, they are so much better I judge them by a different standard. For example, my KOALA has some minor finish drips on the inside of the slothead. Nothing worth noticing, let alone being bothered by. They really aren't so much 'drips' as 'places where the finish is a little thicker than others'. But you would never see that on a Taylor. No way. On a Taylor, I would consider them a defect.
I just spent an hour playing my 714ce and my KOALA back to back. I love them both, particularly because they are so complimentary: The strengths they each have feather nicely with the strengths of the other. The Ovation is richer and has a bolder tone, particularly on the bottom end. It is also beautiful to look at, and a real attention getter.
The Taylor has better articulation and separation. It also has the typical insanely fantastic Taylor neck, which makes playing it almost effortless. While guitar players would appreciate its beauty, to the average audience member, it looks like any other standard guitar. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Hey , no arguments at all...you guys know me pretty well I think by now...I do like my guitars a lot...ok, I’m passionate about them…but you're welcome to play any of them at any time...That’s the ONLY point I was trying to make...I don't sell guitars...I play them and have a few in a small collection...but they all get played or they hit the highway...well, all but the harmony's...the 61 is playable and sounds rather cool in its own way...the 31 was my stepfathers guitar...its cool as well but unplayable at the moment...I don't have on OFC (would be nice...Al (thank you) did a great thing bringing this series), and I am thrilled (seriously) for those that do...
There is a point to the QA issue here and that needs to be looked into...
One more important thing: it’s nearly July 4th: Please everyone, find a Veteran or Active Duty Military and just tell them "thanks". You will make their day and will have thanked the people who make/have made it possible for the freedoms we all too often take for granted here in America...like talking and playing guitars just for an example...
Blessings to all... |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | I think you've got completely the right idea, Dave. Frustrating as it may be, it's fixed, and it wasn't a top separated from the bowl, or a busted-in preamp, or as someone even got I recall, completely the wrong guitar. It's beautiful, sounds great, no sweat.
That said, the real problem is that any company could let so many inconsistencies on their upper-end products go unnoticed. If I make a cookie and it gets a bit over-baked, no major deal, not a huge problem. If it's not sellable I throw it out, but if it's not identical to the other 500 cookies I just made, no problem. If I were to overbake a wedding cake for 300 people, however...one little mistake not addressed can ruin your reputation with many, many people. Particularly when you're selling a product in the $1000+ dollar range that depends on maintaining a customer base. If I hired a monkey to bake bread and let him lose hair in the bags, I'd run out of customers pretty dang quick.
Someone needs to get the monkey out of the assembly line.
Nuff said. |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Originally posted by cruster:
Originally posted by Omaha
One thing that I admire about that company is that Bob Taylor has the soul of an industrial engineer. Interesting, considering the background and experience/expertise of Ovation's founder.
For the record, I bought one, and really love it. I'm not however a huge Martin fan, and I think Dave's Yankees/Red Sox comparison is right on. I love great guitars, but definitely have my favorites. Just because you love baseball, however, doesn't mean that you like all the teams.
Anymore, it's a hard call whether I pick up an Ovation or my Taylor to play...really depends on my mood. Music is definitely in the player, not the guitar. |
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Location: SoCal | And I love John and Kim like brothers, but does it strike anyone as unusual that the SERVICE department is the shining star of the company? Kim won me over many years ago when he called early one morning and said, let me get that guitar back here (to the Factory) and take care of it.
I buy 'em, I order 'em... and then I send 'em in to John, Kim, and their crew. Under warranty or a paid repair, the guitars come back to me in the condition I believe they should have been in the first place.
If Quality is "meeting requirements".... and I continue to see the same inspectors' initials on the QC-Tags of guitars with faults that I can't believe anyone could miss... I have to assume that Ovation has set the inspectors' requirements lower than my expectations. Claims of Quality do not guarantee Perfection... and even Perfection is subjective.
The inspectors are obviously meeting the requirements of their employer, because they are still employed and initialing QC Tags on guitars that I send back to be reworked.
It would just be easier on Al and me if when my guitars are finished, they go directly to "John, Kim, & Company" for corrections before they get shipped out to me. The tough part is impatiently waiting for a new guitar and then having to send it back and wait some more... oh, and don't forget how stupid one feels for shelling out a couple thousand and having nothing in hand.
Dave loves to stir it up... change is usually a product of necessity and when it comes to ignoring blatant fit and finish issues, I guess the people who set the requirements at the Factory still have not seen a reason to implement higher Quality Standards.
After the blatant fit and finish issues with the U681Ts, I assumed the Factory would stop tolerating crap like that at the production-level. I was wrong. I received the 12-string version and... well, enough said.
What are my expectations for 12/12 of the Koa 6-string 12-fret :confused:
Am I reluctant to place an order for a 12-string version of the Koa :(
If I could have gotten an OFC guitar in a 12-fret version I probably would have jumped, but then it really would not have been an OFC guitar, it would have been a custom creation.
The problem is that we keep ordering and buying these guitars knowing that the Quality Standards have not been raised and that our Assurance of Quality is the Service Department. |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Would be nice to share the "Swept Sin Wave Response" - tried to take mine (7/12) to an uploadable size but you can't read it.
# 7 compared to # 8
#7
A Freq resp 2/1 X: 158.8656Hz Y: -41.607dB
#8
A Freq resp 2/1 X: 91.4176Hz Y: -41.821dB
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#7
B: Freq resp 2/1 X: 93.0101Hz Y: -35.053dB
#8
B: Freq resp 2/1 X: 167.3131Hz Y: -41.094dB
What does it mean, I don't know.
Notice that #7 has 158.8656HZ v. #8 with 91.4176HZ for A. Then, # 7 has 93.0101Hz while # 8 has 167.3131Hz for # 8.
Anyone who wants to share...my fax is 619-330-4761. Sure wish we had this for the 47RI. |
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Posts: 651
Location: Australia | Dave, sorry to here of your OFC Adamas issue my friend.
I agree with you that most people are missing the point. A minor quality issue, perhaps but the fact that it was allowed to leave the factory is disgraceful.To think that workers in the factory saw it and decided to ship it anyway is unbelievable.
Of course the bigger issue is the niggling quality issues which seem all too common on Ovations. I've had little imperfections on most of my O's. It's really not good enough.
BTW, I'm loving the 1627GC. There's just something about this guitar I can hardly put it down. |
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OFC Guitar # 8
Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2007
