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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | As chairmen mao said: Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Remember what happened to the flowers. |
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April 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Okay, my seed, fwiw, color impregnate the Adamas carbonfiber tops. I don't why, but I'm under the impression Reeves Callaway could offer some assistance in this area. |
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July 2002
Posts: 1900
| Moody, I wouldn't give $2500 for a Taylor if it was gold-plated...but I would pay New Hartford as much if they would construct me one of these...
Longneck scale
5-piece neck
Ivory nut
Unbound Ebony fingerboard
Stainless fret wire
Side-only fret markers
Mid-bowl
Cutaway
Center soundhole
SMT top
Tobaccoburst finish
Ebony bridge
Compensated saddles
Jazz setup
OP-Pro
XLR/Phono jacks
Steve |
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February 2004
Posts: 2487
| "So, even though the process of designing and building cars and motorcycles is superficially similar, they are completely different in practice. Ovation's core problem has always been and continues to be that they are trying to sell "cars" to the "motorcycle" market."
Nice posts Jeff by the way...
I do not know why but I guess I see things completely differently?
To me.... Ovation is doing it right.....They are selling Motorcycles to the Auto Market....
I see the bowl backs and the multiholes a real fun approach (motorcycles). I consider the traditional guitars the utilitarian approach ( Automobile) er. the comments about how the old standard is the way to go.....no use in making a new style (If God wanted us to have bowl backs he would have given us plastics before wood attitude) Who said Guitars are supposed to be fun.... They should be taken very seriously!
Now that is the way I see the guitarists and the market. And I also see a wood laminated bowl back as a real kick ass rub to the traditionalists who spout the seven sins of plastics when describing guitar construction. I think it would be fun to have a striped hardwood bowl. Like a custom Motorcycle.
But hey I could be wrong.... I often am?
Randy |
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December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | Interesting stuff!
BTW - the Wooden Roundback (may appear soon)sends as much sound out the back as it does the front! |
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November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by northcountry:
To me.... Ovation is doing it right.....They are selling Motorcycles to the Auto Market....
I see the bowl backs and the multiholes a real fun approach (motorcycles). I consider the traditional guitars the utilitarian approach As with all analogies, this one only gets you so far.
My meaning is more like this: Harley Davidson makes a point of selling motorcycles based on "old" technology. Their customers are traditionalists. At a glance, a 2006 Harley model does not look significantly different than a 1936 model.
Look at a 2006 Chevy and compare it to a 1936. Big difference.
Why? Because the more utilitarian nature of cars has driven functional improvements during that period of time. Motorcycles, being (by and large) recreational have not had the same performance pressures*.
In the 1960's, Ovation came forward and said "we can apply modern engineering and materials to the guitar. We can make a guitar that is better than before (or, if you prefer, we can make a guitar that is just as good for the same price)."
Of course, that meant that they had to define "good", which they did in the form of a Martin D-28. So, they set out to create a guitar that was made using modern techniques that sounded "just as good" as a Martin.
Setting aside for the moment the question of whether or not they succeeded, the more interesting question is "does the market want such a guitar"? Put another way, Ovation decided that some attributes (ie, sound and tone) were what the market wanted preserved, and other attributes (ie, appearance and shape) were what the market was willing to change.
What if that wasn't right? What if the market was really more interested in style than sound? Of course, you will never get a guitarist to say that, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Extending the analogy, suppose a motorcycle company came out with a new motorcycle that promised all of the performance of today's Harley models, but with a silent, electric motor. Might be a cool thing to own, but I wouldn't expect today's Harley rider to be impressed. They appear to be as interested in the sound their exhaust makes as anything else.
I think that sums up where Ovation has been and where it is going. There was a certain segment of the guitar playing market that was agreeable to the basic "new technology is good" message that Ovation brings, but a significant segment of the market finds the whole notion to be completely foreign to the vernacular of the guitar.
Which gets me back to my last post, where I said Ovation needs some passion. The roundback design is mature enough now. Anyone who is even remotely familiar with guitars knows what Ovations are. The challenge now is to change the association from "Ovations = high tech guitars for engineers" to "Ovations = a new kind of guitar we can get passionate about".
And this is the most important part: STOP TELLING ME THEY ARE BETTER!! That approach just completely misses the point. You would have as much luck telling the recreational Harley rider that your functionally equivalent electric motorcycle is better than his Hog. No sale. In fact, it is remotely insulting, because it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what the consumer wants in a motorcyle (or guitar).
Crafting the message is a tough challenge. At first glance, I continue to think that Ovation's natural advantage in the world of "factory customs" is a good place to start. Forget "Ovation = roundback". How about "Ovation = custom"?
Jeff
*Of course, every generalization has its exceptions. The Japanese sell a fair number of performance oriented machines that look nothing like Harleys. But they also sell a large number of machines styled to look /just/ like Harleys. |
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Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | What amazes me is that the younger crowd that seems to be so high tech in some departments like video games seem to be traditionalist old fogeys when it comes to acoustic guitars. Maybe Ovation and I both don't understand this generation's value system.
I admit to my own inconsistencies. Cars shouldn't be made out of fiberglass, but it was OK for guitars. I liked wood boats, but fiberglass made a lot more sense there. |
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Posts: 2487
| Wow....Jeff!!!! I am all tired out now. All I was saying is was your analogy of fun verses utilitarian was reversed?? But that was just my take on it??? This thing is turning into a "higher academic super thought" I just think Ovations are the "FUN" guitars?
Pretty simple concept. Academically it is not really worth the time it takes to type it.
??
Ahhhhhhhh Mike.. That was quite the bomb shell!! You mean they are already doing this!
Fantastic!
I knew they would see my point!
Randy |
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November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
What amazes me is that the younger crowd that seems to be so high tech in some departments like video games seem to be traditionalist old fogeys when it comes to acoustic guitars. That's right. I think the thing to remember is that people rarely buy technology for its own sake. They buy technology when it furthers the value proposition of the underlying product.
Here's a thought: Any product where really old examples are highly sought after, not simply because they are old and collectable but because it is generally thought that they were made better "back then", is probably a poor candidate for a high-tech infusion. String instruments seem to have a lot of that (eg, pre-War Martins, Loyyd Lear Gibson mandolins, Stratavarius violins).
I wonder why that is? Can you think of other items that have a similar "older is better" thing going on?
Jeff |
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Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by northcountry:
I am all tired out now. All I was saying is was your analogy of fun verses utilitarian was reversed?? But that was just my take on it??? Sorry. I didn''t mean to come across as contrary. I just took the opportunity to expand on my earlier post.
Jeff |
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March 2003
Posts: 195
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado | Hey Folks
This may be the most interesting thread I've read in years. As an Ovation owner from pretty far back (74), I can remember that, for a time, ANYbody you saw on TV or live used an Ovation. I think because it lent its self so nicely to an amplified stage environment and Ovation was aggressively marketing to the well known acts. To use an automotive analogy, "Race on Sunday - Buy on Monday". Other makers picked up on this and took away a big share of that market. Please don't anyone take offense to this, but I believe Ovation lost their market with the arrival of Adamas. Ovations at least looked like a regular guitar from the front, but Adamas, as wonderful an instrument as they are, looked like something else.
Seemed like that was the time you started seeing less and less Os on TV and more conventional boxes being played.
In my very humble opinion, going to a conventional body would be a step backwards. I would more like to see a very top of the line round back with a conventional sound hole. If they wanted to try something a little more high tech they could introduce something like a carbon fibre neck. Then I would like to see them, once again, become aggressive in promoting with big names. I've known some "big name" acts throughout my career, and most of them know less about what guitar they're playing than most of us do. It's more about the best offer than the best equipment. Then again, maybe we are looking for the goose when we should just be happy we have the golden egg. Apparently, Ovation is happy with their product line and keep churning out tens of thousands each year. Making a good bottom line I'm sure. We may be asking for more than they're willing to give.
Unless someone comes up with a really radical, new idea, like the round back was, I believe we won't see much change in the market.
Then again, I'm just an old guy who doesn't really know squat about the guitar making industry.
I may F.O.S..
Cc |
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Plant a seed
