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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Like it or not, the market would not understand Ovation pure acoustics. It would be a waste of time and money for KMC to go that direction. I believe the sales numbers have already spoken....the acoustic only models have been gone for several years.
This is not to say that I wouldn't like to SEE more acoustic only models....but it is unlikely to be feasible from a sales standpoint.
I'd like to see wooden roundbacks, too, but I believe the cost would be pretty high from the labor aspect, even with mass production. Plus the warranty on all the glue joints compared to a molded bowl would be much higher.
Waskel's idea of "clothing" a bowl in a box guitar shape is definitely INTRIGUING. Wonder what that would do overall to sound.
Roger |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Weaser P:
Would it turn an outstanding acoustic into a lesser a/e? No, but it would turn an outstanding acoustic into a lesser acoustic. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Hrmm, I like the all CF idea. A roundback, one continuous piece of woven mat...I wonder how that'd be accomplished. Lost foam? Wrap the mat around the plug, wait for the resin to harden, then melt the foam out? |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Take market share away from the Tacoma Papoose. Build an A-tuned guitar, with more portability. |
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Posts: 286
Location: Idaho | Originally posted by an4340:
Take market share away from the Tacoma Papoose. Build an A-tuned guitar, with more portability. I've wondererd why haven't they just put a different neck on the mandocello body already? |
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Location: Idaho | The 12 fret; slot head; cutaway; deep bowl adamas really grabs my attention. Make mine PURPLE. I've always wanted a purple guitar in a top model. |
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| "I'd like to see wooden roundbacks, too, but I believe the cost would be pretty high from the labor aspect, even with mass production. Plus the warranty on all the glue joints compared to a molded bowl would be much higher."
Old Applause Owner;
If you don't mind hearing my take on this twice??? I would like to mention....Glue joints are often stronger than the wood that surrounds them. It would take some very high tolerances for consistancy in the glueing process but these guy's at the factory are very good and the equipment they have is fantastic. Laminated wood products are always stronger and more stable than a solid piece of wood. And I think Ovation guitars already have spruce tops that have warranty issues. And traditional guitars have always done quite well with very thin wood backs and sides that seem to hold up just fine. Laminated hard woods would be inherently stronger in a test of durability. Of this I am certain.
The labor costs could be reduced very quickly once a pattern was made that the machines could reproduce time and time again. They make machines that would lift this glued shape in the air and a bit that could carve out the interior shape in a few minutes then flip the piece over and carve the outside as well. After that it is only a matter of some simple sanding and a nice finish.
If the price is a little higher that's OK thats the idea! A top of the line product that can command a flagship price! I am not suggesting Ovation stop making plastic backs???? All this would be is another option the factory could offer like the shaped backs they have now. And what an option! Youd silence the idiots that always like to mention the word "Plastic" when they talk about Ovations.
I appreciate your doubts, I have a few myself, so forgive me for saying this, but I will wait and see what the guy's at the factory have to say first before I have agree with you on this one.
I still have my fingers crossed.
Randy |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | This is a really interesting thread. Reading through the comments, it seems like "what I'd like to see Ovation make" is often the same as "what I think Ovation needs to make in order to gain more respect". Since the home page to the Ovation Fan Club states, first, "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!", this seems to be a common thing.
Here's my take on it. Brands have identities, that unmistakable "sense" that consumers have about them. If I say "BMW", you automatically think "Upscale, German, Sporty". If I say eBay you think "on-line auction"...and if I say Ovation you think "round back guitars". Or maybe you think "plastic guitars". That's just what Ovations are.
It would be impossible to change that, and why would you want to? If you want to sell more guitars, you would be better off creating a new brand from scratch than to try to fundamentally re-do "Ovation". Some of the comments in this thread here seem to me like people are saying "make guitars just like Martin, only better, and then call them Ovations, and people will finally see that Ovations are good". What's the point in that?
I read an interview (I think on this site) by Bill Kaman where he described Ovations as the F150's of the guitar world. Working guitars for working musicians. Guys that are playing weddings at the Holiday Inn on Saturday afternoon, and then have to tear down and drive over to the bar for their night gig. Ovations give them a sturdy, reliable guitar with good amplified sound and a nice appearance under stage lights.
I think they are just too thoroughly entrenched in this market, but there are still some things I think they could and should do:
1) Might be too late for this, but I think they should sunset the multi-hole design for wood top guitars. I thought the Adamas guitar was supposed to be special? How can it be special when it looks just like a $400 import?
2) Bring in a designer, and integrate the design of their guitars with their marketing. I look at the new Adamas with the teardrop soundhole, and I'm just confused. Are they saying that the teardrop sounds better, or are they saying that it looks better? I thought the Ovation ethos was "form follows function". Is that still true?
3) Place a higher emphasis on custom guitars. The nature of the Ovation guitar's construction lends itself far better than wood box guitars to modular design. Pick your neck, pick your fingerboard, pick your tuning machines, pick your top, pick your bowl, pick your pre-amp. If you really want to get fancy, in the era of CNC they could offer custom fingerboard lettering inlays. This is a market that Ovation could OWN.
4) This is similar to #2, but figure out a way to separate the "high end" Ovation line from the appearance based models like the flame and the American flag pait jobs. Those guitars might look cool (depending on your point of view), but they detract from Ovation's ability to be taken seriously as a maker of high end guitars.
Jeff |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Originally posted by cliff:
I recently saw a pic of StephenStills playing a Martin with his name emblazoned on the fingerboard in big script . . . made me lose a lot of respect for him . . . Uh, wouldn't that actually be the Martin Steven Sills Signature model? |
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Location: south east Michigan | Nicely stated Jeff!
There are many options and inovations Ovation can offer without giving up in the bowl.
The LYRACORD bowl. |
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Location: NJ | Nah, I don't think so . . .
I've seen the Stills SigModel before and it had a small inlayed signature on it . . . THIS one had a BIG signature going along the length of the neck in a generic "BrushScript" font . . .
ATHOUGH . . .
They DID mention in the corresponding article that Stills was working with Martin on something four(?) more Martin SS models. . . |
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Location: south east Michigan | Nicely stated Jeff!
There are many options and inovations Ovation can offer without having to give up on the bowl.
The LYRACORD bowl.
And they are doing different things. Things like the LX features, which everyone likes to the the flame tops which are an acquired taste.
Perhaps because this is the 40th anniversary Ovation is taking a look back into their history. But I don't doubt that they have an eye on the future. At least until the 50th anniversary...then...look out. |
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Location: SoCal | One of the major points that this board has always hit on is the visual separation of the imports from the USA built guitars. In their latest literature, they make this distinction. But it's still not made in the stores. And in GC's, the expensive US built models are still up high and the cheap Korean ones are still down where people can grab them......
This is an ongoing problem. |
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Location: NJ | Regarding the WoodenBoxGuitar debate:
I don't think it'd be a viable venture for Ovation to persue.
It'd involve a considerable amount of re-tooling to support an entirely DIFFERENT assembly process (and there's not a whole lot of open floor space at the Factory t'do this.
It also has the potential of putting out the wrong message:
". . Y'know, . . maybe we were WRONG about this whole "roundback-thing" . ."
After doing something that you've believed in for 40 years, and then do a 180 kinda gives the impression that maybe y'don't what the f@ck your doing . . .
NOW . . . that being SAID:
. . . Do a limited production of boutique-quality wood-box guitars. Top-of-the-line materials, innovative design/assembly techniques, killer finishes, etc. . . .
. . . and label 'em "Hamer".
You're building on an already-established, recognizeable name of quality, hi-end guitars while still offering something "new" (as far as I know, Hamer never did acoustics), and just MIGHT generate a degree of "excitement" . . . |
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| DANG!!! Im always startin stuff.. Hope i dont get my ass beat???? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Thank you for being you! |
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Location: south east Michigan | . . . and label 'em "Hamer".
If just had to be done...there ya go!
Those Hamer guys are wood wizards as it is. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by cliff:
It also has the potential putting out the wrong message:
". . Y'know, . . maybe we were WRONG about this whole "roundback-thing" . ." A good example is when Toyota decided they needed to create an entirely new brand (Lexus) in order to get into the high end car market. The Toyota brand image (affordable, quality cars) was so thoroughly baked into the marketplace that there was no way they could change it.
Ovation has the same issue, only more so. In the guitar market, "Ovation" means "roundback". Ovation only makes roundbacks, and only Ovation makes roundbacks. For better or worse, that is a settled issue.
I think there is a great future for roundback Ovation models. But I don't think we can expect roundbacks to become "respectable" any time soon. There is a huge disconnect between the Ovation approach to guitars and the current market.
Transportation gives us the perfect example (I am going to massively over-generalize here, but you'll see my point). Consumers consider cars utilitarian, and they consider motorcycles to be toys. So, the things that you see first in people's minds when buying cars (reliability, safety, durability) are the farthest things from their minds when buying motorcycles (the look for fun, style, a sense of community with other riders).
So, even though the process of designing and building cars and motorcycles is superficially similar, they are completely different in practice. Ovation's core problem has always been and continues to be that they are trying to sell "cars" to the "motorcycle" market.
The aerospace industry is ruthlessly practical. Engineering in general tends to be pretty prosaic, and engineering flight systems is even more so. This is the ultimate climate of the practical. Everything is measured by results. And that's the culture from which Ovation emerged.
Guitars are really different. Go over to the Acoustic Guitar forum and observe how people will discuss endlessly (and lovingly) the subtle differences in tone associated with the slightest difference in materials or construction. While there is probably some truth to most of those differences, the reality is that at most one player in 100 could actually hear some of these difference in a blind test.
So, you are never going to win an argument with (for example) a Martin owner that your Ovation is better. That's like telling the guy with a Harley Davidson that your Chevy is more practical. And you certainly aren't going to convince him that your Ovation sounds as good or better than his Martin based on the results of your laser vibrometer analysis. He didn't buy for utilitarian reasons in the first place. Your not speaking his language at all.
What this all boils down to is that the only thing Ovation needs to add to their guitars is love. Look at the LX literature. Its nothing but a list of features ("original patented pickup", "lightweight lyrachord bowl"). Where's the love? Where's the passion? Where's the sex?
Jeff |
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Location: SoCal | Jeff's points are good. All of which in my mind, bring us back to advertising that's going to hit people at home, not on stage. It's been said countless times in the past, but Taylor has great advertising. Ovation doesn't. Taylor markets their gutiars to the people sitting on their front porches, Ovation doesn't. Taylor can get away with charging $2500 for a "decent" guitar. Ovation can't. |
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Location: south east Michigan | And there's yet another thoughtful & precise entry from Jeff. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | So, campfire sing-along pictures of Ovations along with copy on how it stayed in tune all night long.
Storys of using an Ovation to bash in a drunks head and keep on playing in tune.
And, most important, testamonials on being the loudest player at the acoustic guitar jam.
;)
Just a poet in an ad guys body.... |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Stick with the bowl. Make the A tuned instrument. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | A men! |
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Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | An "A" scaled slothead mini-contour bowl with single bass side teardrop hole. go with a slightly wider fretboard and pop in an OP Pro.
Make the body shape more mandolin like and toss in a cedar top!
Did I mention the abalone inlay around the body? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Or better yet...
a Koa top! |
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Plant a seed
