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Joined:
March 2006
Posts: 1634
Location: Chehalis, Washington | Okay, so I recently picked up a 12-string Tornado hollow body electric guitar, which I put a whole new electronics kit in and cleaned up a couple weeks back. I've been tinkering with it ever since trying to get the setup and intonation right. The low E and A strings had a lot of buzz since the nut slot was worn down pretty good, so I worked in a shim and got the action set properly today.
Problem is, I still can't seem to get the intonation right. I can get the strings all tuned up (according to my Boss TU-2), but the sound when played together is awful, and the strings are not tuned from one to the other, regardless of what the tuner is telling me.
Is there a special trick to setting up an archtop, or a 12-string specifically? My tuner is working fine on all my other guitars - do I need something different to adjust this one?
Here's a couple pics of my baby:
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Intonation problems refer to fretted notes being wrong when the open string is tuned correctly. What you seem to be describing is simply a tuning problem. A bit like the joke: What does a 12 string sound like when it's in tune? A: Nobody knows.
With new strings (I'm guessing you've put new ones on) it can take some time for them all to settle in. The process is often laborious: tune them all, do it all again, play it a bit, then do it all again.
If it is in tune, but fretted notes are off from what they should be (e.g. the harmonic at the 12th fret is not in tune with the fretted note at the 12th) then you have a more serious problem which could involve the nut and/or the bridge. |
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September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | That sure is a Beautiful Geetar! |
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June 2006
Posts: 7307
Location: South of most, North of few | Stop drooling OMA. You're going to ruin yet another keyboard. |
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October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Andrew,WOW! that is gorgeous!! Good luck fixing the tone problem. I'm sure once you figure it out it will sound great!!! |
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May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Forget the Boss, just tune it by ear. |
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Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Use the tuner on the open string, then check the tuning at the 12th fret and shorten or lengthen the string accordingly. Repeat as necessary until the same tuning can be achieved at both ends. This is relatively straightforward with adjustable bridges. |
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Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4026
Location: Utah | With a 12, getting octaves perfect with their matching string is not as important as getting the octaves in tune with the exact same pitch on another string.
e.g. the low E string and the matching octave string. The higher octave string has to match the D string fretted on 2nd fret, and it has to match the G string when it (the low E octave string) is fretted on the 3rd fret.
I tune using that kind of matching on a 12 string and it sounds better. But your basic intonation has to be correct in the first place. So the first step is to be sure the guitar's intonation is as good as you can get it. Using the same gauge strings as were originally designed to be on the guitar can help. |
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Joined:
March 2006
Posts: 1634
Location: Chehalis, Washington | I can get the strings to register as being perfectly in tune, and the octave pairs to match. The trouble comes when I play all the "tuned" strings together, and that is where the sound is way off. It's more pronounced with certain chords too. For example, if I play a standard open G, it doesn't sound bad, but an E is absolutely horrible.
The other thought I had...the saddles have 4 or 5 slots evenly spaced along the top for the strings. I have each octave pair separated by 1 empty space. With this skinny neck (1 11/16) should the pairs be right side by side? Dave, I couldn't tell by the pictures, but how have your 12'ers been set up?
I'll have to tinker with it some more tonight. So basically, if I get the open tuning on the low string and it matches that at the 12th fret, that string should be set up? |
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Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | I set mine up with the pairs in adjacent slots.
But this has nothing to do with how your guitar tunes or intonates. Something odd is going on. If you play a G chord and it sounds in tune, then an E chord has to also be in tune. Those frettings are not different enough to be effect by intonation problem unless it's off by inches, which it's obviously not.
12 strings such as this (and many others) do suffer some intonation problems up the neck because the main and octave strings (radically different gauges on 4 courses) share the same saddle position. But again, your problem is more dramatic than this.
I would do the following:
1. Forget the octave strings for now, just tune the mains using your tuner. I'll assume the mains read perfectly EADGBE. Now finger a G chord. What does the tuner read for each string. Finger an E chord, D chord, A chord. What does the tuner read?
2. Tune the octave strings relative to unison mains (like Flysig said). ie, tune the octave low E to me in unison with the main D fingered on 2nd fret (an E). For B and high E just tune unisons. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | Does each string sound the same note open and at the 12th Fret?
There is a lot of Geometry that can go wrong with the Hollow Body neck arrangement and a floating Bridge.
Let me play with it before you get too frustrated...
or just let me play it! |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | Get the intonation done right first. Fretting at the 12th fret and matching it to the 12th fret harmonic many times does not work. Try fretting at the 3rd and 15th frets. Those notes should be an octave apart. If not, set the bridge saddles to fix it. Do the same at the 5th and 17th frets. Be patient and fret the strings lightly. Also allow 3 seconds after picking the note to read the tone on the tuner.
I remember reading a few years ago at Harmony Central that the hollow body electric O's from the 60's had problems with neck stability. Those reviews seemed to have disappeared along with a whole bunch of reviews of other Ovation models. Perhaps neck stability is the problem.
There are some Storm Series experts here who might have more info. |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 288
Location: New Hampshire, USA | You mentioned that you shimmed up the nut because the low E and A were buzzing. Did you shim the nut all the way across it, or just on the E/A end?
Also if the nut is shimmed too high, then when you fret strings on the first few frets they're going to be sharp.
Were you having these tuning problems before the nut was shimmed? |
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