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Location: Phoenix AZ | Gotta ask a question. Let me preface this by saying I don't know squat about this, hence the honest question ...
I have always heard of guitars "opening up" over time. I understand the concept and it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah that '42 dreadnaught DOES sound good. But, maybe wrongly, here's what I always thought:
1. Tops open up over many, many YEARS of play. Maybe decades. But I'm reading other threads about guys guitars opening up in a few months time, or maybe a year. Is this possible, or are we talking about 2 different things.
2. Maybe urban myth, but I had always thought that Ovation guitars due to their design and construction really didin't "open up" over time, which was really a good thing because a selling point of ovations is that you know at the time of purchase what your getting, no waiting 10 years only to be disappointed. But here again, I read about Ovations AND EVEN ADAMAS guitars "opening up".
Educate me please. This is very fascinating (becuase I don't know it) and very frustrating (because I don't know it).
Thanks. |
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Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | I'll start by relating this: A few months ago I heard the testimony of a luthier who talked about wood tops: He was convinced that the first DAYS were critical. He spoke of sound "curing" the wood and claimed that he could hear the changes. I was surprised since I always thought: "decades, for sure"! I will say that my old Legend (1114 '74) has definitely mellowed over the years and is NOT the same guitar that I bought. |
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Location: Vernon CT | I've heard and read it has a lot to do with Sound vibrations and the "changing of the molecular structure " of the wood over time. The more you play it the more the "Vibrations affect it". I read somewhere a couple years ago that some guitar manufactures have special sound / vibration rooms they put either just the top wood in or the entire assembled guitar and keep them in there for days or weeks, (something like that) to start the aging/openning up process. I don't have all the specifics or the full definition of what they do, but, thats what I remember.
If you ever saw the commercial where the guy falls into a pit of ball bearing, as he lies there music is played with heavy bass and the balls start to bounce around. That,I beleive,is what happens to the molecule in the wood. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I'm sure that this is very subjective....
I have only have three "NEW" new Ovations... 2058T, Sweetwater T, and 2171.
And I could definitely notice a difference in the first Days that I played them all.
Now like I said, this is subjective. A psychologist may say it is New, and it had new strings, and you had a new toy. But I believe you can notice the difference in first few days of playing.
Then, I guess after that initial change there is a long-term mellowing and aging of the wood.
BTW- I don't know what kind of strings the Mothership uses... But I don't like 'em. I always like the sound/feel better once I put some discount D'Addario EJ16's on there.
[My K1111 is New... But I am the second owner, so it's not That new. :D ] |
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Posts: 494
Location: Location Location Location | I've owned a few newer Martins & Ovations, and a few older ones. From my experience, it takes many years for the top to open up. There is a 'break in' period over a few months time, but not opening up.
My '75 D18 had opened up, sounded different, louder and woodier after about 15 yrs. My '69 0028C had a beautiful sound, combined with the Brazilian rw back and sides, and had very much opened up.
I think Ovation tops open up as well, My '81 Ovation is broken in and nice sounding, but is not what I would call open, as it had not been played all that much in its history. My '69 Ovation is very much open and airy sounding.
I think it's the playing over yrs, as much as the aging that opens a guitar. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | It may be my own lack of hearing, or the fact that I am always standing behind my guitars when I'm playing so I never really hear their tone from an optimal position, but I'm not sure I have ever really heard any of them "open up." They all sound about the same now as they ever did. Maybe it is because the change is so subtle I never notice it, or that a lot of those I play are used and already opened up. I do understand the concept, just like Dave, and appreciate the explanatory example of a vibrating guitar top resembling a piece of cardboard which, when repeatedly folded back and forth over time, becomes so worn that it moves very easily. Perhaps the only guitar I really ever heard that has fully opened up is Mark's original slothead No. 43. An open strum on the strings produces a sound that continues to ring a number of seconds, maybe seven or eight, longer than anything else. All of the years No. 43 was on the road obviously opened it up. Long story short, I'm with you, Dave. I understand the theory, and don't doubt that it happens to some extent, but my ears aren't letting me hear it personally. |
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Location: PDX | This is one of those topics you can find coming up on a regular basis in guitar forums. Most of the time there are conflicting theories thrown around and anecdotal tales of dubious value. In the end you don't know what to believe.
However, every once in a while a fairly well thought out piece of information gets dropped into the mix.
Even still -- it seems to be a topic dominated by lore. Sure as sh&* someone will eventually strap a Conair personal massager to the top of their guitar overnight and proclaim tonal nirvana has been reached the next morning.
_____
gh1 |
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Location: SoCal | There was a video on youtube about a year ago with some luthier (Paul Reed Smith? Bill Collings?) talking about how acoustic guitars start to open up almost immediately upon being played. My personal take is that guitars will continue to "open up" over years, but this guy's point was that it starts almost immediately.
Now the really interesting point that he then made was that it opens up in response to the way it's played. If you only know 3 chords (like me), then due to the guitar only dealing with those frequencies, it will open differently than for somebody like Al DeMiola, who's all over the neck.
I do think Ovations change over time. I had a 30th CL here at the house for about 6 months. It had never been played, and after playing it for that time, I believe that it was a different guitar when it left the house (well, there was also the fact that the dogs chewed it, the kids banged it, and I accidently spilled some scotch in the sound hole)...... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Years? Come on Paul. Here's a snip from the email you sent me ...
"I opened up the box and strummed it. WOW. Beautiful giutar. I love the 5 point bridge. I took a shit, changed the strings and strummed it again. I was amazed how much it had really opened up."
DING |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I'm crying over here... Dave, you gotta give warning before posting things like that. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Can't give you any scientific explanations, but I swear my Adamas has "opened up." It makes sense that the top would start of relatively rigid and then get used to vibrating. I reckon it took about 4 years. Time will tell if it gets even better. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Of course this could all be a bunch of BS and the only thing changing over the years is our hearing ... |
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Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Years? Come on Paul. Here's a snip from the email you sent me ...
"I opened up the box and strummed it. WOW. Beautiful giutar. I love the 5 point bridge. I took a shit, changed the strings and strummed it again. I was amazed how much it had really opened up."
DING I never said that. Toby's lying again.
I said that I took a leak, not a dump..... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yup, sorry. My mistake ... |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I've owned many, many guitars: both wood and then O's and A's...I used the same guitars during the many years I played upwards of 7 nights per week (all Ovations and a Les Paul), and then I owned a '69 D-28 from new until 2003...In every case, the guitar either sounded great from the beginning or sounded blah...in the case of the Martin, it sounded wonderful the moment I first played it...over the years I played it my playing improved and it still sounded great: my perception may have changed as I became a better player to some extent...I have found that same situation to be true w/Ovations: for the most part they sound great out of the box or off of the shelf...or not! I think any change is subjective...now I do know that wood does change in relation to how a guitar is played...but the change is minimal in relation to the original sound...The longer we play our particular guitars, the more we appreciate them or, if not, we tend to sell them...my current '48 D-28 Martin sat for many years broken and forgotten on a bedroom shelf...probably over 35 or 40 years...and yet the minute the neck was repaired (the box was unchanged), and had new strings on it, it sounded great...a combination of wonderful straight grained Brazilian rosewood and Sitka spruce...I am sure from the beginning of its life, it sounded great!
Guitars can change somewhat over time but again the perception is mainly in the ears of the player or owner and I submit, it is minimal at best. Construction and materials seem to determine how wonderful a guitar will sound. Different guitars from my collection will catch my ear in different ways on different days. YMMV |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | I once met a violin expert who explained that if a vintage quality violin sits unplayed for many years it will lose some its voice and volume. Playing the violin for several hours will restore the voice of the instrument.
I agree with Dave that much of what is purported to be opening up is really subjective BS. However, many guitars do sound better after years of playing. I've found this to be true even with solid body electrics. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Of course this could all be a bunch of BS and the only thing changing over the years is our hearing ... BINGO! I think a bad guitar will still sound bad in 20,30,50 years.
A good guitar will sound good over the same period of time and only by experimenting and trying different sets of strings, action, etc will the guitar find it's "true" voice.
a great guitar sounds great immediately and over time our "appreciation" of the sound grows...again after tweaking it and finding which brand/gauge/etc of string sounds best to us.
I have personally sat and listened to players RAVE about how awesome a particular guitar sounds and how well it has aged (all the while yawning at what "I think" is an average sounding guitar at best).
How can anyone truly say a guitar sounds better now than it did 20 years ago.....or even 20 minutes. It has been scientifically proven that accurate memory retention is in the "seconds"....not minutes or hours and especially not years. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | It has been scientifically proven that accurate memory retention is in the "seconds"....not minutes or hours and especially not years.
I remember how the New Jersey Turnpike smelled in the late 60's, near the oil refineries. Man, that was "Goggle Pisano's smoke factory." |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | You can't fight a belief system. Especially one that's propagated by accepted experts.
From work on house renovations I do know that, properly protected from the weather, wood becomes harder and harder until it's almost a grade of metal. It is both strong and tight and will eat metal blades and drills.
I'd have to think a 40 year old wood guitar would have something similar going on...and it you insist it's about the 'vibrations' (man) remember, I live in an earthquake zone..... |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | OK, I have an example. I got my first Bean Blossom Gettysburg in November of '06. I got my second one in February of '07. All of my regulars as well as myself agreed that the first one sounded louder and better. Now, I do more playing here at the shop than I do at home, so I took the first one home and left the new one here. After three months, I brought the first one back and we did another side by side comparison. Now the SECOND guitar sounded a little better and louder than the first! So what I do now is switch them out every three months. I want to keep them both sounding their best. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | This may be as scientific as it gets. I recall a comment made by Mark when he compared two vibrometer readings on his No. 43, one taken in 1976, the other taken nearly 30 years later during the slothead reunion. The similarity (nearly identical) in the readings was striking and helped to confirm the serial number. If it had "opened up" over the years, and this one, if any, certainly would have, then the "improvement" may be primarily in our own hearing. Mark, are you around to comment on this? |
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Posts: 840
Location: CA | Here's the youtube vid referred to earlier: Robert Godin on acoustic guitars. Very interesting perspective from someone who should know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPh9_gFH7t4
I've owned 2 1778Ts, the first guitars I've ever owned with side holes rather than center holes. Both sounded great to my ear, but perhaps a bit more relevant to this discussion, after about 10 minutes of playing, I could SMELL both of them — obviously because the holes were just under my nose. But it took 10 minutes of playing for me to get the first whiff of wood. This told me that the wood was at least 'waking up' if not adjusting somehow to the playing. (Interestingly, the Sweetwater T I had for a short time also did this, but was so new that all I ever smelled was glue. LOL)
I'm also reminded of dragster engines. (Obviously, I came by the screen name honestly.) In the old days, the top fuel guys rarely put engines together from new blocks. I read where they bored out high-mileage blocks because the atoms or molecules or whatever in the iron had 'lined up' in the proper way to make the block stronger. If it works for metal, I see every reason to believe it should for guitar wood, or even the adamas tops, though I'm thinking just by their nature those would be much more consistent right out of the box.
I also like the theory that the thinner layer of 'nonskid' paint on the Elite Ts makes them sound better — okay, different — than the gloss-topped Elites. It would be interesting to test the sound qualities of two identical elites BEFORE they are painted. Then paint one with the nonskid 'T' paint and the other gloss and retest to perhaps quantify at least the effect paint has. |
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Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | They must open up. Otherwise, how would the mojo get in? The ones that sound the best are the ones that opened up wide enough to let a lot of mojo in. Both events require that you play the hell out of your guitar. |
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Posts: 498
| AJ's 2771 when I first got it was really tight.. almost too crisp with very little resonance.. could have been the factory strings, I don't know.... but I took it up to med heavy's for a couple of string changes and played the heck out of it.. then went back down to the mediums and it rang like a bell...
my 1115 when it came back was great after the x-brace got fixed..but maybe a tad too bright. and I took it high on the gauges for a couple of changes and it was the one I'd come home and beat the crap out of with some of Char's hospital stays... stayed heavy on the strings for almost a year, and then dropped back down..
both guitars... at least to my ears and hers sound exceptionally better and more balanced.
but I'm just a hack that plays for relaxation, and have been blessed to own some very rare O's...
I think they do open up, but some if crap to start with, will always sound like crap.
Thanks,
Glenn |
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Posts: 1486
Location: Cincinnati | Maybe it was the cedar top, but my FD14 really opened up. :rolleyes:
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Guitar Tops "Opening Up" ???
