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The History of the Bowl

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Standingovation
Posted 2017-02-20 3:27 PM (#532878 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6191

Location: Phoenix AZ
It's kind of like a restaurant with good food but you don't necessarily want to look in the kitchen.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-02-20 3:38 PM (#532879 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Yeah, no foolin'.

I love Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares TV show. Heh heh heh...
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kentrookie
Posted 2017-11-23 7:45 AM (#538134 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 248

Location: Seattle
This is a interesting thread and well documented
Side question.
Noticed that some of my ovations are snagging my golf shirts.
Thinking it was just me I did a OFC search and found this has been discussed in 2006 under ”Ovation bowls are ruining my shirts! “

Out of curiosity ,which bowls tend to do this and why?
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-11-23 9:37 AM (#538135 - in reply to #538134)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks!

Weird. On which part of the guitar is your shirt being snagged?
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seesquare
Posted 2017-11-23 11:28 AM (#538137 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3598

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
And, how old is the guitar? Dry climate? Static electricity? Fiberglass delamination? Paint flaking? Contour bowl? Could be lots of stuff, here.
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standing
Posted 2017-11-23 1:30 PM (#538138 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 1453

Location: Texas
We finally know why OMA plays without a shirt…
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d'ovation
Posted 2017-11-23 3:55 PM (#538139 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 846

Location: Canada
Great thread, thanks. So it seems the paint of my 1687 is flaking off there's some whit that shines through in places, and these are not places where there is any friction. Is there a way to prevent further damage and cover up the existing bald patches? I really like the sparkly paint.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-11-23 8:42 PM (#538140 - in reply to #538139)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
d'ovation - 2017-11-23 1:55 PM

Great thread, thanks. So it seems the paint of my 1687 is flaking off there's some whit that shines through in places, and these are not places where there is any friction. Is there a way to prevent further damage and cover up the existing bald patches? I really like the sparkly paint.


I have developed a technique to 'duplicate' the pebbly look/feel of the original finish.

This arose from the need to blend the original finish into new binding when during the course of re-topping guitars.

It won't do anything to fix places where the old finish has poor adhesion like what you describe, but it can fix places where the underlying glass has become exposed.

I've never had the occasion to fix the gold speckling of the Adamas bowls, but that shouldn't be too hard to duplicate, either.
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kentrookie
Posted 2017-11-24 12:07 AM (#538142 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 248

Location: Seattle
The snag inducing bowls I have are the 2080 Adamas, and a new 2017 Legend Plus (Korea). Not a problem on my 1117 Legend ('73) and 1621 ('75).

but really..... Given all the things I could worry about this aint one of them.
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2017-11-24 5:49 AM (#538144 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany
I want to talk about sound for a minute. We all know that different woods for back and sides create different guitars, and different bowls are no different.
I had a lot of Ovations and I did not know that in the early years other materials were used for the bowls. I only realized that guitars after 1982 were pretty heavy. From my personal taste the 70´s guitars were more delicate in sound and easier to handle, but the newer (SMC) guitars have definetely more power, more basses, sometimes you would not believe that such heavy guitars (esp. the 12strings 1538 and 1758) would produce any sound at all, but they do. My custom legend guitar built in 1982 is twice as "fundamental" as the two from the 70´s I had before.

Maybe the heavier bowl is the better for the Ovation guitar construction?

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jay
Posted 2017-11-24 1:41 PM (#538146 - in reply to #538144)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

The shiny bowl is as light as any bowl, imo...and produces a response equal or better than any other bowl Ovation came out with, acoustically, imo.  As many times as this has been kicked around, I think it is clear that it is a sum of the parts, instead of a single part.   

 

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DanSavage
Posted 2017-11-24 4:22 PM (#538148 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: RE: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I just finished reading an interesting article that discusses using computer modeling to isolate the manner of sound generation in classical acoustic guitars. Among other things, it mainly talks about the relationship between the top, the air inside the guitar and the back/sides.

See: Mathematical Modelling and Acoustical Analysis of Classical Guitars and Their Soundboards

As expected, there is a direct relationship between the movement of the top and the back due to the coupling of the two via the air piston contained inside the body. And, as expected, the top moves a lot more than the back because the air is somewhat compressible and the top is made to be more flexible than the back.

WRT your observations, it's possible that the earlier thin cloth bowls created a response that is slightly out of phase with the top and cancels the propogation of sound waves throughout the body and out the sound hole. The stiffer bowl of later guitars vibrate less. Because their movement is more limited due to their thicker material, the sound waves are not canceled.

Imagine, sitting in a bathtub full of water. If you slide forward and backward and wave can be generated which sweeps back and forth through the length of the tub. The amplitude of the wave can be increased by moving in time with the wave, but the timing (frequency) of how long it takes for the wave to reach from one end of the tub to the other is controlled mainly by the length of the tub. A longer tub would produce a lower frequency and a shorter one a higher frequency. Now, if you move out of phase with the wave, you can cause it to stop altogether.

This is similar in concept to the thinner back which is more flexible and bounces back more quickly, which could accelerate the sound wave so it leaves the back at a higher rate than it arrived. So, instead of the top and back moving up and down together, they are now acting more like a bellows where one is moving up while the other is moving down.

Also, as expected, thinner, more flexible material favors lower frequency sound waves (bass) and thicker, stiffer material favors higher frequencies. (treble) This becomes even more complicated when you have hand-laid, woven cloth fiberglass bowls whose thickness (and vibratory response) is controlled by how much resin the lay-up applied to that bowl. So, you could have one bowl that has more or less bass and more or less treble, depending on how it was laid-up. One thing that the SMC bowls did introduce was consistency of thickness and hence, response.

As Jay points out, the end result is a sum of the parts. It's difficult to compare one guitar to another mainly because of the wood involved. Even when two guitars are built identically, the wood used in its construction has a lot to do with how it will sound.

One of the things I found interesting about the documentation of the prototype Adamas guitars on the Ovation Tribute site is that by using composite tops, the factory reduced the number of variables required to produce consistently good-sounding guitars when compared to all-wood guitars.

But even so, the factory still struggled to produce guitars with a consistent frequency response that their ears said sounded good. One would sound really good and the next, not-so-good. They had reduced the number of wood components to just the birch core of the top and the braces, but still have inconsitent results which needed fine-tuning.

The above paper also talks about the relationship of the neck to the body and that even it can affect the final sound of the guitar.



Edited by DanSavage 2017-11-24 4:29 PM
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cholloway
Posted 2017-11-25 8:05 AM (#538151 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 2791

Location: Atlanta, GA.
When, where, how and why did the "shiny" bowls come to be in the mfg process?
I know... that's a lot to ask.
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cholloway
Posted 2017-11-25 8:10 AM (#538152 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 2791

Location: Atlanta, GA.
Ackkkk....
Nevermind. I didn't notice there was a page 2 & 3 to the thread.
I'll go back and read more.
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elginacres
Posted 2017-12-02 1:59 PM (#538202 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
I took these these pictures just prior to the Slothead reunion - an epic event - first time in my life MY GUITAR was invited to an event and I got to tag along for the ride.

We wanted to determine which original pre-production slothead mine was - as the original label was long gone (The factory pulled the label off!). Darren wanted to look at it for a couple weeks because this particular guitar - once it got to me was played on the road for 2 dozen years - minimum 6 hours per day. Folks who have played it can really attest to the fact an Adamas will open up. They were in the process of making the reissues - so having instruments around to compare to was fun. Curiously they numbered and wrote weights on the braces in pencil - enough got documented when it was made - that all Beal, Darren, and Nick Macklin had to do was refer to the old large blue print records. Turns out it is #43, which has a storied "out of the factory-back into the factory history" It actually went out - came back - then went out again. Not sure what these pics tell you Dan, but here goes.

Edited by elginacres 2017-12-02 2:14 PM




(17 on bracing and mirror on 17 bracing.jpg)



(Bracing Showing #17.jpg)



(Close up showing mirror 17 and 3.jpg)



(IMG_0960.jpg)



(Mirror Image - Neck side bracing showing a 3 and a 17.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_0960.jpg (83KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments Mirror Image - Neck side bracing showing a 3 and a 17.jpg (85KB - 0 downloads)
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elginacres
Posted 2017-12-02 2:19 PM (#538203 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
Here are a few bowl pics from 2005, the blue print records, a stunning cameo of a pre-production Q, Bill doing the honors once it was determined to be #43, a blurry historical shot showing both Timm Kummer and Uncle Beal can play guitars...Cliff made the culminating photo for the calendar - but this one is the amateur photo hour version - with the kodak instamatic. Memories from the older guard.



(IMG_1387.jpg)



(IMG_1390.jpg)



(STA_1418.jpg)



(STA_1420.jpg)



(STB_1421.jpg)



(STB_1419.jpg)



(IMG_1409.jpg)



(IMG_1404.jpg)



(IMG_1415.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_1404.jpg (43KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments IMG_1415.jpg (77KB - 0 downloads)
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-02 7:25 PM (#538208 - in reply to #538202)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

elginacres - 2017-12-02 11:59 AM
Turns out it is #43, which has a storied "out of the factory-back into the factory history" It actually went out - came back - then went out again.


Very cool. Thanks for posting the pics & info.

As it turns out, #43 pre-production Adamas is one of the guitars documented on Jerome's Ovation Tribute site vibratometer plots. The numbers on the printed spreadsheet match the sheet on Jerome's site.

See: Adamas #43 Vibrometer Plots

From the plot, it looks like a well-balanced sounding guitar.

For a comparison, here's the plot from what they considered their optimum (prototype 26-3):



Edited by DanSavage 2017-12-02 7:27 PM
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elginacres
Posted 2017-12-03 12:07 AM (#538211 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
How fun, I have the vibrometer readings from 2005...got dig around to find them. I know Darren was curious to see what had changed. Sent Jerome the pics a decade ago...good memories.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-03 9:21 AM (#538213 - in reply to #538211)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
I'd like to see them, as well.

It would be cool to put one or two of my torrefied top ovations on the vibrometer and compare them to their non-torrefied counterparts.
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elginacres
Posted 2018-02-05 9:26 PM (#541095 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
Dan Savage: I found the plot Darren did in 2005 of OSH #43. I am curious what you say comparing the two plots with 29 years between them.



(43-2005-Vibrometer.jpg)



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Attachments 43-2005-Vibrometer.jpg (29KB - 1 downloads)
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DanSavage
Posted 2018-02-06 1:44 PM (#541101 - in reply to #541095)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Very cool. Thanks for the post.

Unfortunately, the two plots use completely different notation and I don't know how to read the new plot.
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elginacres
Posted 2018-02-06 5:56 PM (#541110 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
Yeah - me neither - anyone? Bueller?
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alpep
Posted 2018-02-07 2:01 PM (#541116 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
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Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
wow that was a fun day!!
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tpa
Posted 2018-02-07 5:16 PM (#541118 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 552

Location: Denmark
I wonder how these vibrometer plots were made. What is input and what is output? The newest plot says "Swept sine wave" and is probably made by a microphone recording the sound emitted by the guitar at some distance with a vibrator/driver of some kind attached to the bridge. Such vibrator/driver can be a good tool when designing the sound board, but I would guess that the top/bracing/suspension design was done by experiment and judged by ears as normally done and the vibrometer measurements were done afterwards driven by curiosity and in effort to describe the result somehow. At that time frequency analysis of mechanical systems was really hot.
If the two plots were made in identical conditions they might the some of how the guitar soundboard changed over the years. To make such comparison be meaningful require a lot of experience in analysing and comparing these plots. It does seem that the two pronounced peeks at 90 and 183Hz have leveled out. This frequency interval corresponds to the interval of fundamentals from G on 6th string to F# above that. This, I believe, is good since such peaks also might indicate either a local resonance or less damping in that area which would make the guitar resonate differently - maybe less controlled - around these frequencies. Wolfnotes - such are also discussed in the article Dan refers to.
But I know nothing - I am just guessing :-)
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elginacres
Posted 2018-02-07 6:13 PM (#541119 - in reply to #463859)
Subject: Re: The History of the Bowl


Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609

Location: Colorado
Al - I agree - it was great day - meeting new...and now lifelong friends, putting our hands on many pre-production slotheads - peeking into the future that never quite unfolded - except for just a few - aka the "Q". Bill being the glue of it all, Frank, Rick, and Darren opening the shop and their hearts, listening to Timm's take on things, and Nick's recollections of how things really were. To the owners of these guitars - it is a eclectic group - and to you AL, the one who probably knows more about the models and selling the things...all a heart-felt great memory. I am also looking forward to what will happen in 2025 on the upcoming celebration of the 50th anniversary of what Nancy Wilson calls "Carbon Tops".
TPA - Darren Wallace wanted to measure the guitar to see what 30 years of playing it did to it...though it cannot be proven, it is likely due to its history, that #43 has had far more playing on it than any other of the originals. I will see if I can get Darren to chime in comparing the plots.
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