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October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Hey Folks,
My 2nd post, I hope I can get some help. My 1994 Standard Balladeer has been working beautifully, until this past Saturday, when during a sound check, the sound tech informed me of a scratchy sound coming out of the PA. The sound especially gets dirty when I play hard. I used some DeOxit and cleaned up the connections - that seemed to help a bit, but did not resolve the problem. The piezo piece is in good order and the bridge seems to sit properly on the piezo element. I did notice that there is a very small fracture in the bridge saddle. I wonder if that could be the problem. When I hook the guitar up to a Roland Blues Cube, the scratchy sound is hardly noticeable. When I hook up my Boss digital delay unit the scratchy sounds gets louder. I'm having a bit of difficulty isolating the problem. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch! |
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks for reading my post. Can I get access to post in other forums. I think this one should probably be in "about my guitar..." Anyway, I seemed to have been able to isolate the problem with the scratchy sound. After checking all the electronics, it looks like the bridge saddle and the piezo element are not fitting flush. When I push the saddle down firmly and play the guitar, the scratchy sound disappears, but when I let up on the bridge saddle the scratchy sound returns (especially when I play hard). So it looks like I'm going to have to put in a new bridge saddle. I'm hoping the extreme Japanese humidity and heat is not deforming the guitar and/or saddle! I was looking at trying the TUSQ saddle from Stewmac. The 1994 Standard Balladeer has a straight bridge saddle, and there seems to be plenty of discussions on this website about different saddle options. What a treasure chest of valuable Ovation info this site is! Thanks OFC! |
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October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Mr. Ovation? Could I get access to post in other forums? |
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Hello again OFC,
just wanted to add an update and ask for additional advice regarding the scratchy sound on my 1861. I had a local luthier replace the bridge saddle using TUSQ. The saddle was done perfectly and my Ovation sounds better than ever acoustically. Unfortunately, the saddle upgrade did not fix the scratchy preamp. I'm running out of options and wanted to ask for some advice. Unlike my CC54i, the 1861 copper (I think it's copper) housing for the piezo elements is not completely sealed (I wish I could upload a picture of it, but since I can't get full access yet, I'm hoping this makes sense...) the thin bottom "cover" (for lack of a better word) is secured with small "flaps". This "cover" doesn't sit flush on the piezo elements and is bowed out (when taken out of the bridge. Will soldering the "cover" securely to seal the elements inside the copper housing help? If soldering is an option, would conductive glue be a possible alternative? Or should I just give-up and buy a new piezo assembly? If buying a new piezo assembly is my only option, does anybody have any suggestions as to supplier and model numbers? Thanks for reading my post and any help would surely be appreciated. Again, thanks. |
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Oops...sorry about asking about a piezo assembly, I found some suggestions on other posts. Apparently, Artec PP-607s work with Ovation preamps. I also noticed a similar product on the Bay called a "TM Sap". Have any OFC members tried the 55mm version of the TM Sap? Link...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TM-SAP-Acoustic-Steel-6-12-String-Guitar-Pi...
Again, I apologize for the lengthy posts, but any advice on the soldering and/or conductive glue would be appreciated! Thanks...
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Okay, folks...I'm talking to myself here, but that's okay, I do that all the time anyway, why not on OFC! As long as it's about Ovation guitars (right?). Anyway, I went ahead and purchased the Artec PP-607 and the TM 55mmx2.4mm piezo on the Bay. I'm going to test both of them out to see if there's a difference. Wish me luck, and hopefully I'll be able to post the results in about 2-weeks! |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I have used the PP-607 with much success. Of course you will have to buy a new saddle.
I do not know what kind of preamp you have...
But I have have used it with the OP-30 and the OP-Pro... and it will plug right into the can.
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks a bunch for responding OMA. My Standard Balladeer is a '94 model, so it has a thinline (according to ovationtribute.com) preamp in it. It is a "super-shallow" model so it's very hard to see where the piezo is plugged in (or maybe soldered?). If it plugs right in the comparison between the piezo's will be really simple. Hopefully that's all I'll have to deal with. Any insight on how the piezo element plugs into the "thinline" preamp? Thanks again! |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Back to the Original Post...
You said that the sound tech informed me of a scratchy sound coming out of the PA.
The sound especially gets dirty when I play hard.
I don't understand what that has to do with the Pickup.
Do you have these problems thru your amp at home? Do you hear the noise or just the sound tech?
When you play through your own amp do you have a "scratchy sound"?
Did you check the cables... and the output jack?
Do the cables make noise when you move them around?
If your saddle is cracked, maybe you do need a new one.
But contrary to what most mechanics want to do...
you should check the simplest/cheapest items first.
The cables come to mind.
As to the preamp connections... I am only familiar with the preamps that pop-out.
Also, if you get a better sound when you push down on the saddle, that leads me to believe that the saddle is not seated properly in the bridge slot.
If there are no shims under the saddle, that slot might not be level.
If there Are shims under the saddle, they may be of a material the is too soft.
Also the saddle might not be seated correctly with the piezo pickup inside that silver housing.
All that said... If there is a plug-in for the pickup into the preamp, just install a PP-607 under a saddle and plug it in. If you use that pickup you can use that Tusq saddle if you want.
Be sure that the bottom of the saddle is Flat.
That PP-607 is of rigid construction... so it is built on a sturdy piece of copper.
Have Fun.
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | arumako - 2013-08-15 10:49 PM
Any insight on how the piezo element plugs into the "thinline" preamp? Thanks again!
No... You need to get an inspection mirror.
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Ah yes, the inspection mirror! I'll get one of those right away!
Thanks for taking the time to comment OMA. I really appreciate it. I'll try to answer the questions one at a time...
When the sound-tech first heard the sound it was through the headphones coming through the mixer, and I couldn't hear it. But when I took my Balladeer and connected it to my amp at home there was no scratchy sound at all. When I played hard, I could hear a bit of a scratchy sound. I then hooked up the guitar through my digital delay, and the sound was magnified quite a bit. But what I found was the scratchy sound was loud sometime and not at other times. Very inconsistent. I then proceeded to check the battery connections, output 1/4" female plug coming into the guitar. Where ever I could, I applied a Japanese substitute for DeOxit called Fernandez 999. Checked the wire and cables and found everything to be in good order. I cleaned all the leads that I could get too, and deoxidized the sliders on the thinline preamp. And none of this changed the inconsistent, but noticeable scratch. When I pressed down on the bridge saddle the scratch seemed to settle down. So, I took off the bridge saddle and noticed the crack, and the fact that the bridge saddle was a bit loose in the slot. I put everything back together carefully, then the scratchy sound really became loud and consistent.
Since the rest of the electronics seemed to work well, I looked for a luthier; and lo-and-behold, for the first time in all my years in Japan, I met a reasonable luthier. He made a beautiful elegant TUSQ bridge saddle for an unbelievably reasonable price (Just finding him makes all this worthwhile. He builds his own acoustic guitars, but isn't very keen on electronics stuff...). BTW, my bridge saddle does not have a silver housing, it just sits right on top of the piezo. I wonder if I'm missing something here? Hmmm (but other Balladeers of this era seem to be constructed the same as mine). Well, despite the beauty and reasonable price of my TUSQ saddle, my scratchy sound did not go away. It very well could be that the slot is not level because there is no shim under the piezo. However, I did notice that the copper piezo element's cover was bowed out. I figured this is probably the main problem, causing the piezo to sit poorly in the bridge slot, and I'm hypothesizing that the piezo is probably bad.
That's why I figure I'm down to swapping out the piezo, and I'm really looking forward to getting the PP-607s in the mail in a couple of days. If that doesn't work, I'll probably have to take her back to the luthier to get the saddle slot leveled. But I must say that my Balladeer is worth the hassle. If I can get the beautiful acoustic sound she's getting now to come out of the amps and PAs...look out!
Thanks again OMA. When I'm done swapping things out, I'll post again... |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | This is what a standard Ovation CP-100 pickup looks like;
All Ovation saddle-pickups that I have seen are one-piece units.
This one has the piezo under the sliver metal.
On the wider saddles are referred to as the "Original Patented Pickup".
It is also one unit... it just looks different.
If you have a flat pickup unit that goes under your saddle...
That was likely not the unit that came with the guitar (anything is possible, but I think not).
Even older Ovations than the 1990's had one piece saddle-pickups.
So if it has already been changed... The PP-607 may just plug-in.
Good Luck with your Project.
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Okay, I'm back! I've received the Artec PP-607 and the TM SAP 55mm piezos in the mail, and I'm ready to go. My '94 1861 Std. Balladeer piezo was not a one-piece unit, which suggests that the piezo that came with it when I bought it used, was already equipped with an after-market piezo. The Thinline preamp comes equipped with the standard female jack that allows the 1/8" monoaural piezo jack to plug right in. Makes things really simple. Interestingly enough, by the time I got these parts in the mail, the piezo in my 1861 was already not working at all, so something was definitely wrong with the piezo. I first removed the preamp from the body of the guitar completely. I carefully peeled off the face of the Thinline pre-amp and there were four screws that firmly held the preamp in place. After carefully removing all the wiring (battery connector and piezo connector from the preamp. I slowly unscrewed the preamp from the body. DeOxidized and cleaned the preamp thoroughly. After allowing some dry time, I connected each of the piezos, and tested them through an amp and a PA. Both units sounded good. The Artec PP-607 sounded exactly like the piezo that originally came with my 1861 when I bought it used. The TM SAP 55mm piezos, was just a bit hotter and seemed to process bass frequencies better. The construction of the TM SAP 55mm piezo also seems to be superior to that of the PP-607. Instead of the standard black rubber insulation around the wires, the TM SAP piezo features a braided wire insulation cover that looked very clean and professional. Overall, I decided to keep the TM SAP unit in my 1861. However, the scratchy sound, albeit much much better, is not completely gone (which suggests that the wood under the bridge saddle is not completely level, leaving some wiggle room for the piezo to move just a little bit when I play really hard. I'm going to put the one-piece piezo from my CC54i into my 1861, and if it corrects the scratchy sound, then I'll need to get a one-piece bridge saddle/piezo unit, or I'll have to go back to my luthier friend and have the bridge saddle groove leveled off perfectly. Just a bit more and I think I'll have my 1861 completely sorted out! Thanks OFC! |
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October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | @Mr. Ovation...I just figured out I have access to other forums! Thanks a bunch. I am really enjoying OFC! Domo arigatou gozaimasu!  |
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Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1070
Location: Yokohama, Japan | And now the conclusion. Haven't had time to revisit my 1861's scratchy preamp issue until tonight...subbed my CC54i bridge saddle and piezo into my 1861. It actually fit very nicely. Unfortunately, the scratchy sound was still present. Hmmm. That means that my "wiggling bridge saddle" theory was way off! Which narrows down the problem with my scratchy preamp to the...well, the preamp itself!
So, once again, I carefully removed the preamp face plate by lifting up the edges with an exacto knife. I needed to make sure that I peeled the face plate slowly to make sure excessive stretching would not render the face plate useless (hard to come by parts like this in Japan!). Removed the slider knobs for the treble, bass, mid and volume controls. Unscrewed the preamp from the lyrachord back. I carefully removed the preamp from the sound hole of my 1861, removed four screws to open the preamp casing. Removed four smaller screws on preamp side with the 4 slider switches to reveal the core of the preamp, the printed circuit board (PCB).
I began inspecting for any dirt or dust build-up, burned out resistors, buldging capacitors, loose solder joints, anything that looked unusual, and voila! the heaviest piece of hardware on the PCB the transformer's solder joints were loose! My Balladeer was made in 1994 and a lot can happen in 20 years! Temperature changes, car, bus or plane trips, anything that causes vibrations can eventually cause solder joints to loosen. So, I cleaned the old solder away and freshly soldered the transformer onto the PCB, and tada! No more scratchy preamp! Yeah!
It was a long arduous journey, but in the process I was able to find a great reasonable luthier who was willing to work on Ovations in Japan! Now, you all probably don't quite see the significance of that, but that's some what like a miracle over here! He made a beautiful artistic TUSQ bridge saddle for my 1861 that really brought out the best tone qualities in the guitar. I found a great affordable substitute for DeOxit called Fernandes 999s. I was able to find two excellent quality aftermarket piezo replacements for the Ovation CP-100, and I also was able to see the inner construction of the thinline preamps. Most of all, I've gotten to know my 1861 better, and I do love her more than ever before! Ovations are awesome. Nothing even comes close! |
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1861 Standard Balladeer scratchy preamp
