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Location: Birmingham, AL | OK here we go. I ran up on this on on fleabay a few days ago. Probably paid too much but oh well....It has it 's good spots - overset neck, frets and fingerboard in very nice shape, neck a pretty burled mahogany, perfect gloss bowl. By the numbers it's a 68 just like my regular Balladeer. However it also has problems...looks like someone dropped it, binding gone from the bottom end, top cracked and separated from the bowl, headstock broken off. Oberving the headstock break it looks like the rosewood veneer suffered the most damage there are some pieces missing. The way it broke off also supports the fact that figured wood has it's weakness in the figure but it has a lot of glue surface to reattach it. The neck block area has some finish cracks but doesn't appear to have any separation or damage. The rosette shrunk, was pulled loose from the rest of the assembly and looks like it can't be reattached
My plan is to repair the broken headstock, repair the top cracks and reglue the top to the bowl and find some binding to replace the missing pieces. What I'm asking here is some guidance on glues, binding, and opinions on how to repair or replace the headstock veneer and where to get a rosette that would work on this top.
Option 2 is to let Dan have it, let him fix the headstock, put a Torriefied top on it and use the small white rosette, etc. I may go that route if I chicken out. I've repaired broken headstocks before but Ovation has their own way of doing things doesn't look any different so hopefully some insight can be realized...
Pictures:
Edited by clrules 2015-07-10 9:02 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I saw that on eBay, too. Very pretty figuring on the neck.
The headstock repair should be pretty straightforward. I would use hot hide glue (HHG) for that job. You could use carpenter's glue (PVA) but PVA can creep whereas HHG won't.
You should be able to order replacement rosettes like that from the Mother Ship. FWIW, when I bought the grapevine rosette for Jay's guitar JB said that he could only find two --one he sold to me and the other he was going to keep.
Gluing the cracks and top back to the bowl should be a pretty straightforward task. I would glue the top back to the bowl using a high-quality epoxy to stabilize the cracks, then use CA to repair the cracks. You'll also want to inspect the braces to make sure none popped off.
The cream binding that AllParts.com sells is a very close match in color to the Ovation binding. It's what I used for the moustache binding on my 1619 CL. None of Stewmac's bindings will match.
See: https://www.allparts.com/search.asp?keyword=cream+binding&search=
You could replace the entire headstock veneer, or you could patch in the missing pieces after the headstock is glued back together. Allparts.com also sells Rosewood veneer. But, with how dark it looks, that might be ebony. A closer look at the edge of the veneer along the break should confirm which wood it is.
https://www.allparts.com/search.asp?keyword=veneer&search=
It looks like AllParts is out of ebony, but Stewmac has some.
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Bodies_and_Necks_and_...
Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-10 9:32 AM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | Thanks, Dan, for all the info. I wasn't sure what kind of glue to use especially on the top-to-bowl rejoin. The rest of it by your guidance seems to be pretty much standard. I don't have any HHG equipment do you have an opinion on the hide glue that is bottled and ready for use? It may just be PVA in disguise.
The veneer is rosewood it's just a really dark reddish brown doesn't look like ebony. I have a really pretty piece of Cocobolo that would look really nice if the veneer gets replaced. I would want at least to restore the Ovation logo at the top. Can I buy a gold rub on decal somewhere similar to what you are using? If you have a link that I can use I would appreciate it if possible.
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Your best bet for top-to-bowl gluing is Hysol 9462, which is available from McMaster-Carr.
See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#loctite-hysol-epoxy-adhesives/=xzueu2
For a small job like that you won't need the mixing nozzles, but you will need the dispensing gun as the glue cartridges don't have integral plungers like hardware-store epoxies. You can use Hysol to glue the binding, but something like Duco Cement (green tube) might be a better choice. I've never used liquid hide glues, so I couldn't really recommend one or the other.
Granular hide glue is available from either Stewmac or from Milligan & Higgins. See: http://www.milligan1868.com/index.html
Stewmac's HHG is 164 gram strength, which is a little on the low side. 192g is usually recommended for luthery. I did find an article online that discussed a couple of liquid HG compared to HHG. See: https://homegrownlutherie.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/liquid-hide-glues...
Old Brown Glue is regular HHG, but with urea added to extend the working time. Urea weakens the glue, but not by much. Old Brown Glue is available through Rockler Woodworking. See: http://www.rockler.com/old-brown-glue
I have a Rockler located close by, so I may have to try this glue out.
In any event using HHG in granular form is pretty easy and doesn't cost too much money. I spent less than $50 to get my setup together, including the glue.
Besides the glue, you only need a glue pot. Now, you could spend big bucks and buy it from Stewmac, but a cheaper and better alternative is to make one from a Sunbeam electric soup pot. The nice thing about using a soup pot, besides being dirt cheap to buy, is that the HHG is kept in an enclosed, hot moist environment so it doesn't skin over. Here's a couple of pics of my set up. 
I just used a coffee cup inside to make a double-boiler. Here's a page on Frets.com that talks about using HHG: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-10 3:46 PM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | Cool stuff....looks like more research is needed. I cleaned up the guitar and it's really in great shape. It was cared for until it got dropped. The bowl especially is very shiny with little marking and the top, except for the damage, is in very good shape.
One more question. How do you get the white stuff that is on the area where the rosette was routed out. It looks like paint but it's stuck on pretty good.
Might be epoxy?
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | clrules - 2015-07-10 3:19 PM
One more question. How do you get the white stuff that is on the area where the rosette was routed out. It looks like paint but it's stuck on pretty good.
Might be epoxy?
Hi Paul,
Hmmm... Now, that's interesting.
On both my 1976 1619 and my 1978 1617, and the later plastic rosettes I've gotten from the MS, the rosettes are a two-piece affair --a clear-plastic top piece that has the oak leaf patter printed on the underside and a faux pearloid ring that's glued to the underside of the top piece. See below:
When they're glued together, it looks like this: 
Back side, sprayed with flat-black spray paint. 
Here's a close-up of what they look like glued together. 
But, in looking at the pics you've posted, there's a third layer. Can you post a couple of close-ups of this area of the rosette around the sound hole so I can get a better idea of what it looks like? Also, you asked about the rub-down. I bought the supplies from a company called PulsarProFX. The product is called DecalProFx. See: http://www.pulsarprofx.com/decalpro/ Basically, it's a thin film that fuses to laser toner using heat and pressure, i.e.: a laminator. Their technique is to print the image onto a water-slide decal sheet, then fuse the film, in my case, satin gold. Next, you apply a carrier sheet to the rub-down and separate the rub-down from the decal sheet and spray on fabric adhesive which when applied to the final surface, in this case, the headstock, you peal off the carrier sheet leaving the final image behind. The final step is to apply the clear coat finish to seal in the artwork. I had thought about using my ALPS 5000 printer to print the gold layer onto a water-slide decal sheet, but I didn't want to have the ghosted-image of the carrier sheet show up under the final clear finish. The font used by Ovation for their headstock artwork is Arabian Normal. It's available online at: http://www.fonts2u.com/arabian-normal.font I just ran a quick test to duplicate the 'Deluxe' seen on your headstock and it's the correct font. As far as the early Ovation logo, I've got that so if you need it let me know and I can post a link to it here. Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-10 8:58 PM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | This is all very interesting. I had no idea that Ovation changed their specs so much during the first 7 years or so.
The rosette is a very thin plastic with the top, a pearl back and then a white painted on underlay. It does have a small black lip that went into the soundhole but that disintegrated when the rosette came off.
I was amazed at how thin the rosette channel is. The hard part is finding a replacement the original is just too warped to do anything with it.
I noticed that you removed the finish from the headstock on your project did you just sand away or is there anything else that will soften it?
Anyway, here's some pictures.
Edited by clrules 2015-07-11 7:58 AM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | I forgot the side shot. You can see how really thin it is. I can imagine why Ovation got away from this pretty labor intensive. I think it's neat.
Edited by clrules 2015-07-11 8:18 AM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | Well, heck, here we go. I started looking at what it would take to reglue the top to the bowl and I've found out this guitar must have taken a very hard lick. The top is loose all the way around the lower bout on one side. Having to remove so much of the outer binding I just took it all the way off the whole guitar. I cleaned out the binding channel and it's fine. The kerfing is still very well attached to the bowl (thank goodness) so now some interesting options on what the replacement should be. Here's a shot of the cleaned out channel. Pretty much standard stuff.
Was able to get a good chunk of the binding that goes under the neck so I can just slide the new stuff up under the neck.
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I've never seen the Deluxe rosette off the guitar.
I knew it was inlaid, like the grapevine rosette, but it's interesting to see it taken apart like that.
Is the pearl layer real pearl or pearloid? It looks like pearloid.
That inlaid rosette will be difficult to replace. You could contact the MS to see if they have any, but I doubt it. You'll probably have to use a modern raised rosette like the one in the pics I posted.
I measured the modern raised rosette:
O.D.: 6-1/8" (6.125")
I.D.: 4"
Soundboard hole size: 4-3/16" (4.1875")
WRT the headstock on Jay's guitar, I had to sand off the finish. It's polyester, so there aren't any chemicals that will strip it.
Speaking of rosettes, here's a few pics our fellow OFCer, TJR, sent me of the original MOP rosettes. Talk about a lot of trouble. It's too bad they didn't keep making them this way. It sure is purty. 
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-11 9:12 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | clrules - 2015-07-11 6:54 AM
Well, heck, here we go. I started looking at what it would take to reglue the top to the bowl and I've found out this guitar must have taken a very hard lick. The top is loose all the way around the lower bout on one side. Having to remove so much of the outer binding I just took it all the way off the whole guitar. I cleaned out the binding channel and it's fine. The kerfing is still very well attached to the bowl (thank goodness) so now some interesting options on what the replacement should be. Here's a shot of the cleaned out channel. Pretty much standard stuff.
Was able to get a good chunk of the binding that goes under the neck so I can just slide the new stuff up under the neck.
It looks like the purfling is still in place, which is a good thing. I'd leave it and just replace the binding after the top is glued back down and cracks repaired. |
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Location: Birmingham, AL | The purfling is fine. The Deluxe's rosette pearl is pearloid, my 1119 and 1658 Custom Legends have the puzzle piece abalone rosettes. The rosette channel dimensions on the Deluxe are exactly the same as the raised ones so it would fit perfectly.
Whom would I need to contact about buying a new rosette at the Mother Ship?
BTW, Dan, I want to thank you very much for all the insight. I really feel good now that I can tackle this project with good results. I wasn't familiar at all with how Ovation manufacturered their guitars so this has been really fun.
Here's a shot of the 1658 rosette. Always thought this one was especially "purty"....
Edited by clrules 2015-07-11 10:20 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | That's a pretty sweet looking rosette. I wonder when they stopped using the real stuff and started using the pearloid and abalonoid.
For parts, contact John Budny. (jbudny@dwdrums.com)
You're welcome. I'm glad to help. For the most part, they're like most other guitars. |
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Location: Birmingham, AL | DanSavage - 2015-07-11 10:31 AM
That's a pretty sweet looking rosette. I wonder when they stopped using the real stuff and started using the pearloid and abalonoid.
For parts, contact John Budny. (jbudny@dwdrums.com)
You're welcome. I'm glad to help. For the most part, they're like most other guitars.
Oh, yeah, already talked to John. That's how I found out about you. Just didn't put the two together.
Everybody went to the manufactured abalone/pearl probably because it's cheaper to install. Even Martin uses that type of pearl now. I like looking at the CL guitars and seeing how the abalone pieces fit together and how someone made each piece complimentary.
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | clrules - 2015-07-11 9:47 AM
Everybody went to the manufactured abalone/pearl probably because it's cheaper to install. Even Martin uses that type of pearl now. I like looking at the CL guitars and seeing how the abalone pieces fit together and how someone made each piece complimentary.
Ovation needs to talk to this gal who had these rosettes made. I paid $166 off eBay. All hand-cut & fitted real MOP & abalone. (edit: I just checked eBay and these are going for $136)I paid $150 for the abalonoid rosette for my CL and $120 for the pearloid one seen in the pics above. 
This one cost me $77. All hand-cut & fitted white MOP, black MOP & abalone. I really like this one and want to use it on one of my guitars some day. It's very striking in person. 
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-11 8:59 PM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | I have been looking and saw these on ebay. The only thing is the hole on the Deluxe is 4" but the Ovation looking one would work it would just have 1/4" of exposed wood around the soundhole. It would look sort of like the 12 string which is cool by me. I'll ask if she'll do one in black. As long as the outer dimension is no larger than 6" should be fine.
Thanks Aagin!! |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | The outer dimension of the Ovation knock-off is 6-5/8", so it is noticeably larger than the standard plastic rosette.
The outer diameter of the diamond rosette is ~6-1/8" which is about the same size as the standard rosette, but the inside diameter is ~4-1/2" which makes it more narrow than the standard rosette.
I did ask her if she could make an Ovation knock-off using black MOP and abalone and she said she could and it would take 45-60 days. The bummer is that I asked if I could return the white MOP and abalone and exchange it for the new one and she blew off the deal. I've been too chicken to ask her again. I did order some other inlays from her and she was happy to sell them to me. So, if you ask her to do it, make sure she's clear that you will buy it and not return it. |
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Location: Birmingham, AL | She just wrote back and said she would not do a custom order. She has another Ovation knock off that has the 4.5" inner circle but the rosette is 1 1/8" (1.125)" thick so that only calculates to 5.625". I asked her to verify that and if correct I'm going to use that one. Heres a picture:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191625820808?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&s...
It's more than the other one but that's fine. If I can get the headstock to glue back together successfully then I can proceed and probably get one of these.
I noticed also she has some rope style ones that resemble the rosette on the Balladeer but of course in pearl but they may be too different to look decent.
Edited by clrules 2015-07-13 7:38 PM
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Location: Birmingham, AL | One more thing  ...... I am considering using the Hysol on the headstock also, they say it can be used on wood, and I would want a strong bond in that area. Any misgivings, opinions, etc ? I know the HHG and equivalent can be taken apart and the epoxy is pretty much a one shot deal. |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Well, that's too bad about her not wanting to do custom work. It looks like I poisoned the well.
I just measured my Ovation knock-off and those dimensions are the same, which means the OD will be 6-5/8".
Yes, she has some really nice, reasonably-priced rosettes. But, IMO, they are better suited to a new top rather than trying to retrofit them to an existing groove.
Hysol would work fine. It will give you plenty of working time and it will be plenty strong, too. It's an aerospace-grade epoxy that's good to 250° F.
WRT HHG for the headstock repair, the biggest advantage is the lack of creep at elevated temperatures, i.e.: anything above 150°-170° F, which is likely to be experience when a guitar case is left in a car or out in the sun. PVA glues are notorious for softening at these temps, whereas HHG will hold tight. Other than a high-temp epoxy, the only other glue I've used that does not creep is CA.
So, if you use Hysol 9462, it will hold tight at these temps. If you really want to be sure, you could always use Hysol 9460, which is good to 350° F.
Another point to consider is that HHG will dry transparent and Hysol 9462 is beige and 9460 is grey. So, you might see a seam line with the Hysol whereas the HHG seam line will be mostly invisible, assuming you've realigned the joint to perfection.
One other point to consider is that the HHG glue joint will continue to shrink as the glue dries, which draws the two pieces closer together. The epoxy glue joint will only be as tight as you clamp it.
I'm not trying to talk you out of using Hysol and into HHG, only pointing out the pros and cons of both. |
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Location: Birmingham, AL | Thanks. That's the info I need. I've used epoxy before I just want this one to come out really well and I've never used Hide Glue before. I think I need to get some equipment and get used to the HHG. It seems to be the choice of many luthiers.
Onthe rosette, looks like she's shut down her ebay store until Aug. 14th so I'll have a lot of time to consider my options. I emailed John to see what he has and i found another Ovation style rosette that would work on the Deluxe but it's more like the original and if it fits suppose tha twill be OK and it's only 9 bucks..
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Don't want to rain on your parade, but those cheap ones- if they're the same ones I bought a few months ago- are the correct pattern, but printed on flat, 1 mm, self-adhesive. foil-looking material. Anyway, they have no depth to them, so be sure they are what you desire. What's that?- Caveat Emptor? |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | HHG is the choice of woodworkers because it forms an electro-chemical bond with the wood. Which is the say that it bonds directly to the wood at a molecular level. The smoother the wood surface, the better HHG works.
All other glues rely on a mechanical bond. You have to rough up the surface with sandpaper to give the glue something to grab onto.
To use HHG, you don't even need to go to the trouble I did. I made myself a glue pot because I plan on using HHG in the future.
Here's a page on frets.com that talks about the ultra-simple way to prepare HHG using a simple double-boiler on the stove.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Glue/UseHideGlue/... |
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Location: Birmingham, AL | OK, I haven't proceeded any further so I'll give it a look. The surface where the head split is far from smooth because of the figure of the wood it's very rippled go back and look at the pictures. There's no way that I could get a smooth surface or is "smooth" a relative term?
I probably won't use the cheapo rosette John Budny is shipping me a couple to try.
Edited by clrules 2015-07-16 7:31 PM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Smooth is a relative term. You wouldn't want to take a sandpaper to the broken headstock. The grain of the wood will provide plenty of tooth to the epoxy as it is right now.
But, if you were gluing two pieces of fresh wood together using HHG, you would want to get the surfaces as smooth as you could by using very fine grit sandpaper. (320 or higher)
If you were gluing these two pieces of wood together using epoxy, you would want to stop sanding at 220 grit.
It's sort of like painting. If you're applying paint to a surface, you rough it up unless you're applying a second coat before the first coat has fully dried. The fresh coat needs some tooth otherwise the paint will peel off. The second coat relies on a chemical bond.
Edited by DanSavage 2015-07-17 10:16 AM
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Balladeer Deluxe Project
