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1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions

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Stevie B
Posted 2016-07-29 8:17 PM (#526954)
Subject: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
July 2016
Posts: 7

Location: Venice Beach California

Hello!

I have moved this thred over from the welcome center. I hope you don't mind.

I recently bought Acoustic Balladeer 1121-4 with a serial number from 1974 - 035825. I got it for $80.00 USA along with an original hard shell case. I suppose one could say that the guitar is in OK condition as it plays fine, and stays in tune, but in reality it is in an odd state of affairs. It has a big crack on the back of the head-stock just behind and above the nut. It also has 2 cracks on the soundboard. One between the rosette and the bridge and one from the bridge working to the tail of the guitar. The body of the guitar is in ok condition with what looks like a repair to part of the outer bout that has left an oblong circle on the back of the guitar.

My intention when I bought this guitar was to fix it up and use it as an instrument I wont worry about much when I tow it around town on my bicycle trailer. I did not know that Ovation used polyester finish before I bought the guitar and now realize that to fix this guitar could be a challenge.


In case you were wondering how it would stay in tune with a crack at the head-stock it is because somebody already tried to glue it together. They did a rather poor job. I am not sure what kind of glue they tried to use but it left the white residue that is not water soluble. He was so sloppy he even left a large finger print in the glue at the top of the head-stock.

But somehow he stablized  the neck and it stays in tune.

In any case the guitar plays fine but I would like to fix it up a bit more if I can. I am not a trained luthier but I am very good at wood work as I have been doing carpentry for 40+ years and have repaired broken guitars in the past.  I have a 1950 Gibson with a side crack and a hole where the guitar input jack in for repair at the moment. So I can fix guitars.


My questions are these:

Is it really "nearly impossible" to polish polyester to a high gloss?
Where can I get small quantities of a polyester finish that will work with this guitar?
Will a thin layer of polyester to the face of the guitar change the tone?
What is a good CA glue to use for the cracks on the soundboard?
What type of woods were used in the neck so I can patch the remaining crack at the neck left by the poor repair?
Is it possible to coat the sound board with a polyurethane as a surface finish and then polish that?
What kind of paints did Ovation use on the back of the guitar bowl? 
An finally should I just leave it alone and play it?

Any help would be appricated.

Thanks

 

http://s328.photobucket.com/user/pbebay1/library/Ovation%20Guitar?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 photo IMG_2481_zpselu839gt.jpg  photo IMG_2476_zpsrufndyfc.jpg  photo IMG_2475_zpslbfpfjit.jpg  photo IMG_2484_zpswqsofzhq.jpg  photo IMG_2473_zpsw6kx9zud.jpg  photo IMG_2472_zpsqnkmbp4x.jpg  photo IMG_2471_zpskvbrurcr.jpg  photo IMG_2487_zpsofesrbxp.jpg  photo IMG_2485_zpsx6sto59c.jpg

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arumako
Posted 2016-07-29 10:57 PM (#526958 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Hi Stevie B. Thanks for posting the pics and sharing your 1121-4 project. Like you, I'm not a Luthier, but I do love tinkering with my Os. Your 1121-4 is gonna be quite a challenging repair, but some of the nicest, humorous, and most knowledgeable folks are here at the BFLG. They'll definitely get you headed in the right direction. With your wood working expertise, this project should come together quite well.

Taking a look around at previous projects and archives was really helpful for me. Using the search function and looking up, say... "adhesives" will bring up a wealth of information. Pretty much everything is covered somewhere in the archives; construction, destruction, fret maintenance, finishing, bracing, binding & purfling. Your probably already doing this, but the archives is a good and fun place to start while you' re waiting for some of the heavy-hitters to respond. Good luck and keep us posted!
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seesquare
Posted 2016-07-30 8:01 AM (#526961 - in reply to #526958)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3598

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
I'm guessing the repairs were done with massive amounts of SuperGlue, and you can probably sand out all that surface blemish, but I doubt you will get the neck joint apart, unless you saw it apart, then sandwich in some filler material, which is probably mahogany. Stabilize the cracks with some cleats underneath the soundboard (yes, it may affect the tone, somewhat), but you can shoot just about anything you want to, over the polyester that's already there. Let the finish set up a couple of weeks, before you polish it out.
It won't be perfect, but you can made it prettier, for sure!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-07-30 11:01 AM (#526965 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: RE: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Stevie B - 2016-07-29 6:17 PM

My questions are these:

Is it really "nearly impossible" to polish polyester to a high gloss?
Where can I get small quantities of a polyester finish that will work with this guitar?
Will a thin layer of polyester to the face of the guitar change the tone?
What is a good CA glue to use for the cracks on the soundboard?
What type of woods were used in the neck so I can patch the remaining crack at the neck left by the poor repair?
Is it possible to coat the sound board with a polyurethane as a surface finish and then polish that?
What kind of paints did Ovation use on the back of the guitar bowl? 
An finally should I just leave it alone and play it?

Any help would be appricated.

Thanks

1) No. Generally speaking, polyester finish is very polishable. But, it's a two-part finish system which requires a decent spray system. An alternative would be the Eastwood 2-part urethane finish in a rattle can. I've used this and it works well.
2) Aircraft Spruce would be a good source for polyester finish. (See: HI GLOSS CLEAR POLYESTER TOP COAT)
3) Probably not as long as you sand the surface first to remove all gloss and keep the new coats as thin as you can. I used Minwax gloss clear rattle-can polyurethane on the last two guitars I re-topped and it works pretty good.
4) Any hobby-grade CA will work.
5) Mahogany and maple.
6) Yes.
7) As near as I can tell, tinted polyester.
8) Yes. You should leave it alone and play it.

Whomever did the neck repair screwed it up forever. As was said, it looks like they used CA glue with an accelerator. (kicker) The white stuff is all over the headstock is over-accelerated CA that was on the surface when it was kicked. Short of tearing out the wood, you won't be able to get the glue joint apart.

On the bright side, if the case is in decent condition, then you're still ahead of the game.

Cheers!

Dan



Edited by DanSavage 2016-07-30 11:06 AM
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seesquare
Posted 2016-07-30 7:14 PM (#526974 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3598

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Tell you what, take some full-length pictures, & we can conduct a vote. Might not sway your choice, but the gestalt would be helpful!
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tpa
Posted 2016-07-31 5:45 AM (#526979 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 552

Location: Denmark
Assuming the head/neck glue joint is good I would probably cut the gap a little wider and fill it with thin epoxy using a syringe. Then I would sand it to a smooth feel and maybe hide it with some paint. These 3-5mm close to the surface are the most important part of the glue joint. The glue at the center doesn't really do much good.

It has seemingly seen some hard times. Ovation guitars a said to be sturdy. Could be one of these guitars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMmmMqmQdY
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BCam
Posted 2016-07-31 11:34 AM (#526980 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
October 2014
Posts: 266

Have you loosened the strings to see if the neck joint is solid? I bought a Yamaha with a cracked neck that played OK and seemed solid until I slacked the strings. I think the truss rod was holding it together. Once I had the strings off, I could open things up enough to re-glue and position everything. That was two years ago and it's holding fine.
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Stevie B
Posted 2016-07-31 4:56 PM (#526988 - in reply to #526958)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
July 2016
Posts: 7

Location: Venice Beach California

 

Hey! Thanks for the replays....

 

Full body picks? OK. 

 

 photo IMG_2488_zpstw9ey5rw.jpg

 

 photo IMG_2489_zps4kanbwam.jpg

 

 photo IMG_2490_zpspzpswv4d.jpg

 

 

 

@arumako

 

I have defiantly been searching the OFC posts to get as much info as possible.

 

@seesquare

 

I was thinking super glue as well, but it also looks like epoxy. I was considering getting the smallest saw blade I could find and carefully cutting out the glue and then gluing  mahogany and maple into the slot sand and finish. I am not sure the cracks go all the way through the sound board but when I take the strings off I will use mirrors and cameras to look into the underside. If need be, I will cleat as you suggested.

 

@DanSavage

 

Dan, your work is impressive! The info is just what I need. I guess after the crack repair I will decide which way to go. The case is in OK condition. The inside is clean. One of the latches is broken but the others work. No holes but some of the plastic has risen off the padding underneath the brown outer plastic cover. It is fully useable as a case.  Maybe a light application with my heat gun will soften the raised plastic so I can push it down.

 

@tpa

 

I didn't realize that the edges of the joint were that important. As for the flying guitars.......isn't their a song about that... ? "tear drops falling...falling"?

 

BCam

 

Yes, When I bought it I loosened the strings to take pressure off the neck and see what happen. I didn't move, so I retightened the strings and it plays fine.

 

 

 

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seesquare
Posted 2016-07-31 5:08 PM (#526990 - in reply to #526988)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3598

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
My vote is, fill the crack, however you choose, refinish the repairs, then play it 'til your fingers fall off. It's really pretty nice, the way it sits.
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2016-07-31 5:16 PM (#526991 - in reply to #526954)
Subject: Re: 1974 Balladeer 1121-4 repair questions



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 287

Location: Katmandu
It breaks my heart whenever I see a beautiful Ovation such as yours having been treated rather unkindly or unprofessionally by one of its previous owners. All the more I'm delighted when a ruined Ovation gets restored to all its former glory. If your 40-odd years as a carpenters aren't the most solid basis for an advent in luthiery work than I don't know what is. I just can't watch a vintage Ovation with a broken neck. I hope not all is lost in resucing this beauty!
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