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How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-02 9:46 AM (#546877 - in reply to #546874)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Old Man Arthur - 2019-02-01 6:28 PM

Mine arrived today.
I have not installed them in anything.
But it is good to have spares.


Good show.

I changed out the saddle on my 50th Anniversary CL a couple of days ago. I'm going to change out the saddle on my 1655 this weekend.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-02 9:55 AM (#546878 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Here's the latest arrow in my quiver.

It's an AnyCubic Photon 3D resin printer. It's a very high resolution 3D printer that prints parts out of a vat of UV-curable resin.

I bought it to prototype parts so I don't have to wait three weeks for a part to try it out.



And, here's some of the first parts I printed. The cool thing I didn't realize is that I can print parts using colored resin, too.


On the left are two F-111 hub caps that I designed when I was still flying model airplanes. The one on the left is printed from translucent green resin. The one on the right is printed using white resin. I also bought grey and black resin.

On the right is a stack of saddles. In front is the stock 1624 saddle. Behind it are two prototype nylon string saddles that have the same compensation as the steel string, but no radius. I'll be putting these on my 1624 and 1613. If they work, I'll upload the saddle to Shapeways so it's available for sale.

Behind the nylon saddles is the OEM steel string saddle, and the Shapeways black, translucent green and two white saddles.

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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-02-02 10:12 AM (#546879 - in reply to #546878)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1553

Location: Indiana
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-02 10:29 AM (#546880 - in reply to #546879)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Jonmark Stone - 2019-02-02 8:12 AM



You mentioned earlier that you were familiar with Shapeways from your modeling group.

What sort of modeling are you into?
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2019-02-02 11:24 AM (#546882 - in reply to #546878)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 699

Location: moline,illinois
DanSavage - 2019-02-02 9:55 AM

Here's the latest arrow in my quiver.

It's an AnyCubic Photon 3D resin printer. It's a very high resolution 3D printer that prints parts out of a vat of UV-curable resin.

I bought it to prototype parts so I don't have to wait three weeks for a part to try it out.



Very cool Dan,Charlie Kaman would love the use of space age tech for ovations IMHO
Is the resin for your printer the same quality/hardness as what Shapeways uses.
So are we going to see custom order "Savage" parts available in different colors now maybe get a bigger model and you could 3D print your own bowls




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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-02 12:03 PM (#546884 - in reply to #546882)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

2wheeldrummer - 2019-02-02 9:24 AM

Is the resin for your printer the same quality/hardness as what Shapeways uses.
So are we going to see custom order "Savage" parts available in different colors now maybe get a bigger model and you could 3D print your own bowls



Thanks!

The saddes from Shapeways are printed using a different material and process. (Selective Laser Sintering - SLS)

The SLS printing uses nylon powder which is fused together, layer by layer using a laser. The end result is a part that is pretty tough. It's flexible and reasonably hard.

Here's a YouTube video that discusses SLS printing process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrFYt3uUdrI

The resin parts (SLA/DLP) aren't as durable as SLS parts. They end up being harder, but they are more brittle. This pretty much limits their usefulness to either prototype parts, or decorative pieces.

I probably won't be selling parts. I bought this printer primarily to produce prototype parts.

This will allow me to make sure the parts work as designed without having to wait 3 weeks or so to get prototype parts printed by Shapeways.

Ha ha! That's funny. I don't need to 3D print bowls. I already made a deep bowl mold and a parlor bowl mold so I could lay-up fiberglass bowls.

Not to mention how much time it would take to 3D print a bowl. Something as large as a bowl would take a couple of days to print.

The parts seen in the photos took about 45 minutes to print.



Edited by DanSavage 2019-02-02 12:19 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-02 3:32 PM (#546886 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I thought I'd share the results from my latest saddle changes.

I put a full-compensated saddle on my 1655 12-string. I'm happy to report that it benefited from this update.

I also created a prototype of this fully-compensated saddle with no radius for the nylon string guitars such as the 1613 and 1624. Again, both these guitars now play in tune.

I've made these saddles available on my Shapeways page. Same material options and price as the steel-string guitar saddles.

Ovation OCP-1K Nylon Fully-Compensated Saddle

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arumako
Posted 2019-02-07 8:42 AM (#546936 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Hey Dan! Thanks for taking the time and effort to make these available to us! They do ship to Japan! I finally got my allowance, and placed my order for 3 each (standard shipping = $29.99 for my whole order)! Can't wait to try them out. Woohoo!

Edited by arumako 2019-02-07 8:43 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-07 8:59 AM (#546937 - in reply to #546936)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Hi Ken,

You're very welcome. You won't be disappointed.

I've already swapped out five of my guitar saddles -- three steel and two nylon.

Like I keep saying, it's so nice to be able to play these guitars in tune.
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FlySig
Posted 2019-02-09 11:06 AM (#546970 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4025

Location: Utah
Question about applying more silicone. Does it raise the new saddle up off the piezo crystals at all? That would mute the tone a bit, or a lot. Might it make sense to dissolve out the old silicone before applying new silicone?
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-09 11:46 AM (#546971 - in reply to #546970)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
FlySig - 2019-02-09 9:06 AM

Question about applying more silicone. Does it raise the new saddle up off the piezo crystals at all? That would mute the tone a bit, or a lot. Might it make sense to dissolve out the old silicone before applying new silicone?


After replacing five saddles I've found the silicone is optional.

If you do apply more silicone, just press the saddle down until it comes into full-contact with the piezos. The excess silicone will squeeze out. At that point you wipe away the excess.

Personally, I wouldn't mess with the old silicone other than to use a pair of tweezers remove any 'flanges' that squeezed out between the sections of the old saddle. Doing anything to the silicone runs the risk of breaking the delicate wires connecting the piezos.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-09 2:16 PM (#546972 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

For those who've yet to receive and/or swap out their saddles I made a short video that demonstrates how to swap the saddle.

Swapping out an Ovation OCP-1K Saddle...

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FlySig
Posted 2019-02-09 8:01 PM (#546974 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4025

Location: Utah
Good results so far with replacement saddles. Peeling off the original plastic saddle really is easy, and the new saddle completely solves the low E intonation problem.

1) No discernible tonal difference with the white saddle in the 1537 compared to the factory original. It dropped right in easily after removing the original saddle.

2) The stereo pickup in the 1537 has an interestingly different construction with copper tape along the top surface rather than soldered wires. Being stereo, there must be 2 wires on the bottom of the piezos. This is a late Fender era replacement, not the 1983 original.

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=...

3) The black replacement saddle for the 2080 is not sitting totally flush at the 6th string. The saddle is .011" longer than the original, and there is an excess of RTV/silicone inside the pickup. With some filing of the saddle and trimming of the silicone it fits laterally but is still not flush at the 6th string. I believe there is still some excess silicone, and possibly the silicone is off center along the piezos. It trims off very easily with an X-Acto knife. Acoustically it sounds normal but plugged in there is almost no signal from the low E string. With a bit more careful trimming of the silicone I think this is going to work fine.

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=...

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=...

4) I would love to have an off-white color that looks like unbleached aged bone rather than the bright white.

5) When retuning the strings, eyeball their position carefully over the new saddle so that they are properly spaced. Once up to pitch they will create a small notch in the saddle, so spend the few seconds to get it right.

6) Someday I'll figure out how to post pictures on this forum so that they display. Jeez.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 10:00 AM (#546978 - in reply to #546974)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM

Good results so far with replacement saddles. Peeling off the original plastic saddle really is easy, and the new saddle completely solves the low E intonation problem.

1) No discernible tonal difference with the white saddle in the 1537 compared to the factory original. It dropped right in easily after removing the original saddle.


Great news!

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM

2) The stereo pickup in the 1537 has an interestingly different construction with copper tape along the top surface rather than soldered wires. Being stereo, there must be 2 wires on the bottom of the piezos. This is a late Fender era replacement, not the 1983 original.

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=7282


That's interesting. I've never seen the inside of a stereo pickup.

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM
3) The black replacement saddle for the 2080 is not sitting totally flush at the 6th string. The saddle is .011" longer than the original, and there is an excess of RTV/silicone inside the pickup. With some filing of the saddle and trimming of the silicone it fits laterally but is still not flush at the 6th string. I believe there is still some excess silicone, and possibly the silicone is off center along the piezos. It trims off very easily with an X-Acto knife. Acoustically it sounds normal but plugged in there is almost no signal from the low E string. With a bit more careful trimming of the silicone I think this is going to work fine.

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=7283

http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/photos/get-photo.asp?photoid=7284


Have you been able to compare the old saddle to the new one to determine if they are identical? How does the old one fit into the pick-up?

Given that the new one shares idential dimensions with the OEM, there must be a reason why it's not settling into place.

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM

4) I would love to have an off-white color that looks like unbleached aged bone rather than the bright white.


I've still got one white nylon saddle I got from Shapeways. I've had good luck antiquing other plastic stuff with Rit dye. I'll give it a try and let you know how it works.

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM

5) When retuning the strings, eyeball their position carefully over the new saddle so that they are properly spaced. Once up to pitch they will create a small notch in the saddle, so spend the few seconds to get it right.


I agree and have done the same myself when tuning up my strings on the new saddles.

FlySig - 2019-02-09 6:01 PM

6) Someday I'll figure out how to post pictures on this forum so that they display. Jeez.

1) Open a new tab in your browser. You should have two tabs open -- one for the comments and the other, images. In the comments tab, click the Use Rich Text Editor button.

2) View the image in a browser. Right-click on the image, then select Copy Image Location from the pop-up menu. This will store the URL into the clipboard.

3) Click on the Insert/Edit icon.

4) This will bring up the Insert/Edit Image pop-up dialog box.

5) Paste the URL from from the clipboard into the Image URL textbox. Click the Insert button.

Voila! Your image has been inserted.





Edited by DanSavage 2019-02-10 10:02 AM
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FlySig
Posted 2019-02-10 11:17 AM (#546979 - in reply to #546978)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4025

Location: Utah

DanSavage - 2019-02-10 9:00 AM

/>Have you been able to compare the old saddle to the new one to determine if they are identical? How does the old one fit into the pick-up?

Given that the new one shares idential dimensions with the OEM, there must be a reason why it's not settling into place.



The length of the new saddle is .011" longer than the OEM saddle. Upon first installation it bowed upwards because it was too short for the available space. The OEM white saddle from the 1537 is the same length as the black saddle from the 2080. There was definitely a lot of silicone inside the pickup assembly, including at the ends. Even with trimming it out, the saddle was still just a titch too long. It was easy enough to file a little off of the ends.

However, the front edge at the 6th string is still sitting proud. I expect the problem is too much silicone inside the pickup assembly. The cavity is totally full of the stuff. The bead across the low E piezo crystal appears a bit crooked by eyeball. Later today I will take it apart and carefully remove more silicone as well as compare the two saddles.

New saddle on top, OEM saddle below. The right edge of each is against a straight edge.



Thanks for the help with photos. This forum is the only space I have difficulty posting photos on.

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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-02-10 12:30 PM (#546980 - in reply to #546979)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1553

Location: Indiana
Thanks for the video, Dan. It confirmed what I've suspected about several of my O's... that they have individual saddles.
Haven't placed an order yet. Got a plate full of projects between setting up my new recording space and modding a couple of mics.
Like the idea of antiquing these white ones. Not sure I'd care for the black on any of mine other than the -5 Adamas.
Great work you're doing. Carry on.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 12:33 PM (#546981 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

That's weird. I just checked my black saddles and they're the exact same length as the OEM saddle.

For your black one, make sure to sand a little off each end so the slots are between the piezo crystals.

Looking at the inside of the pick-up a couple of the piezos are crooked and the low-E looks like it might be off-center. Even so, this shouldn't prevent the saddle from fully seating.

The amount of silicone looks normal.



Is the profile (cross-section) the same between the OEM and new saddle? Specifically the low-E.

Try putting the saddle in backwards to see if the problem is with the saddle or the pick-up.


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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 12:39 PM (#546982 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: RE: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I did a quick antique stain job on the Shapeways white nylon saddle using Rit dye.

The top one is the OEM. The middle is the dyed Shapeways nylon saddle. The bottom one is a saddle I 3D printed here.

I used the hot-water dying method using a weak mixture of liquid Rit dye Golden Yellow and Taupe. Per the package recommendations I also added a little bit of white vinegar.

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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-02-10 12:42 PM (#546983 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1553

Location: Indiana
That looks great. Just like a 40 year old nicotine stained pup.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 3:44 PM (#546984 - in reply to #546983)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
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Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Jonmark Stone - 2019-02-10 10:42 AM

That looks great. Just like a 40 year old nicotine stained pup.


It does look more like the OEM saddle.

I personally like the sound of the black better, so that's probably what I'm going to keep putting on mine. Well, except for the 1624 and 1613 that both have translucent green saddles. (prototypes)
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 3:46 PM (#546985 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
FlySig,

Do me a favor. Compare the length of the black and white saddles and let me know if the black is longer than the white.

Even though the black will be shorter than the white because it's been sanded, the slots on both should all line up.

If Shapeways is sending out different size parts, I'd like to know that so that I can address it with their tech support.
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FlySig
Posted 2019-02-10 4:21 PM (#546986 - in reply to #537044)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4025

Location: Utah
By eyeball I can't see any difference in the length of the new black vs new white as they are installed by comparing them to an old saddle held next to them. Not very precise. I can pull the saddles off at the next string change which will be next week or so. The new black saddle measured out at 1.766", whereas the original black saddle was 1.755". I did not measure the new white saddle before installation.

The inside distance between endcaps on the saddle assembly is quite different between the two guitars. The black one on the Adamas (2008) is right around 1.763", whereas the white one on the 1537 (stereo, 2014) is 1.785". I can imagine the assembly process results in a lot of variation in that dimension.

The black saddle assembly was chock full of silicone. Squeeze out filled every spare space. With some careful scraping and picking out, the new saddle now sits flush and works perfectly. It did need to be shortened ever so slightly initially, but the dead low E piezo was due to all the silicone inside the assembly. There was quite a bit down in the longitudinal channels that could have been jacking the new saddle up, or it could have been the center ridge of material on top of the piezos being too tall. The material was very easy to trim out with an X-Acto knife and good lighting.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 5:09 PM (#546987 - in reply to #546986)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
FlySig - 2019-02-10 2:21 PM

By eyeball I can't see any difference in the length of the new black vs new white as they are installed by comparing them to an old saddle held next to them. Not very precise. I can pull the saddles off at the next string change which will be next week or so. The new black saddle measured out at 1.766", whereas the original black saddle was 1.755". I did not measure the new white saddle before installation.

The inside distance between endcaps on the saddle assembly is quite different between the two guitars. The black one on the Adamas (2008) is right around 1.763", whereas the white one on the 1537 (stereo, 2014) is 1.785". I can imagine the assembly process results in a lot of variation in that dimension.

The black saddle assembly was chock full of silicone. Squeeze out filled every spare space. With some careful scraping and picking out, the new saddle now sits flush and works perfectly. It did need to be shortened ever so slightly initially, but the dead low E piezo was due to all the silicone inside the assembly. There was quite a bit down in the longitudinal channels that could have been jacking the new saddle up, or it could have been the center ridge of material on top of the piezos being too tall. The material was very easy to trim out with an X-Acto knife and good lighting.


Phew! I'm really happy to hear that you got it working on your 2080.

WRT your measurements, I'm sure you mean 2.### and not 1.### as the 3D printed saddles are, as designed, 2.75" long.

I've got 3 black saddles installed. I ordered the first one with the white one I antiqued. Then, I ordered two more black ones on a separate order.

I measured the saddles and the space between the pick-ups using my digital calipers.

Saddles: 2 - 2.75", 1 - 2.76"
Pick-ups: 2 - 2.78", 1 - 2.8"

I also tested three different spare pick-ups and the space between the end pins was 2.78". I'm sure I could keep testing guitars, but I would probably find that these are all about the same distance.

It looks like the black saddle you ordered was probably marginally larger, like one of mine. But, your space between the end pins on the pick-up was the same distance, which explains the interference fit on length.

You're the first one who's reported a problem with the saddle being too long. Those who have got theirs report that it just drops right in.

I'm just glad you were able to make it work without too much hassle.
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FlySig
Posted 2019-02-10 5:43 PM (#546988 - in reply to #546987)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
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Posts: 4025

Location: Utah
DanSavage - 2019-02-10 4:09 PM


WRT your measurements, I'm sure you mean 2.### and not 1.### as the 3D printed saddles are, as designed, 2.75" long.


Yeah, thats what I get for going by memory!
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-10 6:52 PM (#546989 - in reply to #546988)
Subject: Re: How To: Replace OCP-1K Bridge Saddle...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
FlySig - 2019-02-10 3:43 PM

Yeah, thats what I get for going by memory!


Like I say, the main thing is that it works now.

BTW, what do you think about how it sounds?

Dan
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